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How traditional is "traditional marriage"??

DCJ

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Prior to gay marriage becoming an issue for some ppl I never heard the term.....

Those I have asked can't say much beyond their grandparents........

Certainly different countries, religions, cultures etc have their own (held for centuries, or even millenniums) & they are not the same as those screaming about "traditional marriage"..

SO are they not traditional as well??

Eventhough they vary??
 
Marriage as anything besides a man obtaining women as property is very non-traditional.
 
Let me help you out with an explanation of all this (forgive the lenght, but it is all important so you know how recent "traditional marriage" really is.)

Religion does not own marriage, in fact marriage in the earliest sense predates all monotheistic religions by a large margin. As such, all monotheistic religions predate what you hear with "traditional marriage" by a large margin.

We have both Anthropological and Archaeological studies to know that the earliest marriages had nothing to do with love, nothing to do with monogamy, and nothing to do with systems of belief. They originated as a means to handle producing "legitimate offspring" for the purposes of handling name recognition, wealth, and land ownership transfer on a generational level. We also know that marriage started out primarily and only among aristocracy and education (which accounted for less than 1% of the population.) Said another way, early marriage's primary purpose was to bind a woman to a man, often multiple women to a man. It served as a social guarantee that a man's children were accounted for and by effect made a woman a man's property. Among the ancient Hebrew cultures (as an example,) aristocratic or wealthy or other prominent men were free to take as many wives as they wished, often married additional women of conquered societies to add to those numbers. We have evidence taught in ancient history classes of men taking multiple wives, while also having prostitutes, even teenage male and female lovers. Their wives stayed home and handled raising the "legitimate kids" as well as tend to local business and/or farming needs. We even know that wives that failed to product offspring were sometimes given back so someone else could marry them or simply take them in producing kids for someone more common where marriage was not a consideration. For just about everyone else marriage was not available, nor was any recording of who's kids were who's.

Fast forward a little post the advent of at least 2 of the 3 main monotheistic religions and marriage was still more about wealth and aristocracy than anything else. The Romans (for example) used marriage for all the above reasons and even added in the creation of diplomatic and commercial ties all among those important. For everyone else who was starting to marry at the common level, it still was not about religion even though Christianity was starting to take shape post all the conflict with Judaism. Even post Christianity being established as the official sole religion in 380 AD, marriage was *still* about anything but religion.

Marriage did not become sacrament until the 16th Century, as something that should be performed by the church. Western ideologies based on social and economic need. And it still was not about love, it had more to do with family decision making on what was best for both the man and woman. Meaning, prominence and history and family ownership *still* had more to do with this than some "blessing" from above. All the literature from the period is filled to the brim with the difference between family obligation for marriage and the many adulterous relationships one would have for love and romance. The higher you were in social class, the more this was accepted... even in some circles expected. It took until late into the Victorian Era for even the concept of "purity" to show up as having any meaning or relevance to marriage or the church.

When you hear people today talk about "traditional marriage," that did not show up... wait for it... until the early 20th Century with the idea of the "nuclear family" (dad, mom subservient to dad, 2.5 kids, a house and a car) not showing up in the 1950s. So, when SSM showed up as the social direction we are going all the social conservative right is talking about with traditional marriage is a set of ideas that is barely old enough to make the history books. Important, yes. So important as to prevent SSM, not even close.
 
Prior to gay marriage becoming an issue for some ppl I never heard the term.....

Those I have asked can't say much beyond their grandparents........

Certainly different countries, religions, cultures etc have their own (held for centuries, or even millenniums) & they are not the same as those screaming about "traditional marriage"..

SO are they not traditional as well??

Eventhough they vary??

It's pretty obvious that people who say "traditional marriage" mean one man and one woman. I disagree with them but don't wonder what they mean when they say it

I was raised to think marriage was between a man and a woman too. I never knew anyone growing up who had 2 mothers married to each other. Did you? Until there were variations on that, there didn't seem to be a need for people to clarify what they meant, was there?
 
Marriage, as an institution, has changed significantly over time, and varies from one society to the next.

Most people who defend "traditional marriage" are only thinking of the past 150 years or so; the so-called "love marriage," where two partners meet on their own, fall in love, and get hitched was decried as a threat to society in the early 20th century. Prior to then, marriages were often arranged by families, for benefit of the family (or clan), with minimal input from the intended. They were often as much (if not more) about economics as community, and rarely instigated by or for love.

Polygamy, for example, was "traditional" until around the start of the 20th century in many societies, especially in Asia. Strictly speaking, Medieval Europe did not tolerate those practices, but adultery (and pre-marital sex btw) were fairly common, and in many cases tolerated, if not openly espoused (read The Decameron if you don't believe me). Many elites (almost always the male leaders) had multiple mistresses.

Of course, none of that really matters, because marriage equality was pretty much a non-issue until the right-wing chose to turn it into a wedge issue to encourage conservatives to the polls, and to try to cement everyone into a conservative Christian frame of mind. Their goal -- and they aren't particularly shy about this, by the way -- is to oppose the normalization of homosexuality by mainstream society, and this campaign has apparently blown up in all their faces.

Thus, to those individuals, "traditional marriage" is a dog-whistle to mean "no gays allowed, not here, not anywhere." It doesn't need to mean anything more than that.
 
I just happened to be reading about the ancient Sumerians in J.M. Roberts' history book, History Of The World, recently. I was actually trying to track down another issue raised in a different thread about the evolution of theological thought in ancient times.

https://books.google.com/books/abou...ld.html?id=-YZsXxbOpZoC&source=kp_cover&hl=en

Roberts describes on Page 56 that Sumerian marriages were heterosexual and monogamous.

He gives 2250 BCE as his reference date.

Since they are the first civilization that we know of, and since their marriage was hetero and monogamous, I suppose that meets the definition of anything being considered traditional.

Recognizing of course that previously during history in the Gilgamesh Epic there was mentioned acts of homosexuality, however not involving any kind of marriage.

So it is safe to conclude that all evidence points to marriage as a hetero concept, not same-sex, and even also monogamous at this most early stage of history. They also apparently had issues of divorce as well.

I'm not disagreeing with the SCOTUS about the 14th Amendment. Just wanted to set the record straight regarding history.
 
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Marriage, as an institution, has changed significantly over time, and varies from one society to the next.

Most people who defend "traditional marriage" are only thinking of the past 150 years or so; the so-called "love marriage," where two partners meet on their own, fall in love, and get hitched was decried as a threat to society in the early 20th century. Prior to then, marriages were often arranged by families, for benefit of the family (or clan), with minimal input from the intended. They were often as much (if not more) about economics as community, and rarely instigated by or for love.

Polygamy, for example, was "traditional" until around the start of the 20th century in many societies, especially in Asia. Strictly speaking, Medieval Europe did not tolerate those practices, but adultery (and pre-marital sex btw) were fairly common, and in many cases tolerated, if not openly espoused (read The Decameron if you don't believe me). Many elites (almost always the male leaders) had multiple mistresses.

Of course, none of that really matters, because marriage equality was pretty much a non-issue until the right-wing chose to turn it into a wedge issue to encourage conservatives to the polls, and to try to cement everyone into a conservative Christian frame of mind. Their goal -- and they aren't particularly shy about this, by the way -- is to oppose the normalization of homosexuality by mainstream society, and this campaign has apparently blown up in all their faces.

Thus, to those individuals, "traditional marriage" is a dog-whistle to mean "no gays allowed, not here, not anywhere." It doesn't need to mean anything more than that.

Arabs have had multiple wives long before the 20th Century.

It's pretty obvious that people who say "traditional marriage" mean one man and one woman. I disagree with them but don't wonder what they mean when they say it

I was raised to think marriage was between a man and a woman too. I never knew anyone growing up who had 2 mothers married to each other. Did you? Until there were variations on that, there didn't seem to be a need for people to clarify what they meant, was there?

Well it is becoming much more common to have 2 mothers these days. The SCOTUS via the 14th Amendment decided to sanction it everywhere in the USA not just those 35 states which already sanctioned it. That's probably the right answer too, although it might strike the overwhelming majority as strange indeed.
 
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Let me help you out with an explanation of all this (forgive the lenght, but it is all important so you know how recent "traditional marriage" really is.)

Religion does not own marriage, in fact marriage in the earliest sense predates all monotheistic religions by a large margin. As such, all monotheistic religions predate what you hear with "traditional marriage" by a large margin.

We have both Anthropological and Archaeological studies to know that the earliest marriages had nothing to do with love, nothing to do with monogamy, and nothing to do with systems of belief. They originated as a means to handle producing "legitimate offspring" for the purposes of handling name recognition, wealth, and land ownership transfer on a generational level. We also know that marriage started out primarily and only among aristocracy and education (which accounted for less than 1% of the population.) Said another way, early marriage's primary purpose was to bind a woman to a man, often multiple women to a man. It served as a social guarantee that a man's children were accounted for and by effect made a woman a man's property. Among the ancient Hebrew cultures (as an example,) aristocratic or wealthy or other prominent men were free to take as many wives as they wished, often married additional women of conquered societies to add to those numbers. We have evidence taught in ancient history classes of men taking multiple wives, while also having prostitutes, even teenage male and female lovers. Their wives stayed home and handled raising the "legitimate kids" as well as tend to local business and/or farming needs. We even know that wives that failed to product offspring were sometimes given back so someone else could marry them or simply take them in producing kids for someone more common where marriage was not a consideration. For just about everyone else marriage was not available, nor was any recording of who's kids were who's.

Fast forward a little post the advent of at least 2 of the 3 main monotheistic religions and marriage was still more about wealth and aristocracy than anything else. The Romans (for example) used marriage for all the above reasons and even added in the creation of diplomatic and commercial ties all among those important. For everyone else who was starting to marry at the common level, it still was not about religion even though Christianity was starting to take shape post all the conflict with Judaism. Even post Christianity being established as the official sole religion in 380 AD, marriage was *still* about anything but religion.

Marriage did not become sacrament until the 16th Century, as something that should be performed by the church. Western ideologies based on social and economic need. And it still was not about love, it had more to do with family decision making on what was best for both the man and woman. Meaning, prominence and history and family ownership *still* had more to do with this than some "blessing" from above. All the literature from the period is filled to the brim with the difference between family obligation for marriage and the many adulterous relationships one would have for love and romance. The higher you were in social class, the more this was accepted... even in some circles expected. It took until late into the Victorian Era for even the concept of "purity" to show up as having any meaning or relevance to marriage or the church.

When you hear people today talk about "traditional marriage," that did not show up... wait for it... until the early 20th Century with the idea of the "nuclear family" (dad, mom subservient to dad, 2.5 kids, a house and a car) not showing up in the 1950s. So, when SSM showed up as the social direction we are going all the social conservative right is talking about with traditional marriage is a set of ideas that is barely old enough to make the history books. Important, yes. So important as to prevent SSM, not even close.

Very well said.
 
The Kennedy decision was a bizarre piece of work. The prose was purple haze bull crap. and I tend to agree with Roberts:

Dissenters in the same-sex marriage ruling accused their colleagues of usurping power that belongs to states and voters.
"This court is not a Legislature," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in dissent.
that the states ( legislators) should have been left to solve this.

But one point I never heard brought up is so called "reciprocity" -where some states refused to recognize other's gay marriages.
I'm not big on using the 14th here - there is a distinction of equal rights, as decided by society whereby whom is granted marriage
Also the states are the traditional purview of marriage qualifications.

But the reciprocity argument did it for me - with the ever growing number of gay marriages
there had to be reciprocity or too many people's lives were held hostage to the chaos of lack of reciprocity.

So the decision kina had to happen,even if I do not support the underpinning of the Kennedy writings/decision
 
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Prior to gay marriage becoming an issue for some ppl I never heard the term.....

Those I have asked can't say much beyond their grandparents........

Certainly different countries, religions, cultures etc have their own (held for centuries, or even millenniums) & they are not the same as those screaming about "traditional marriage"..

SO are they not traditional as well??

Eventhough they vary??

"traditional marriage" was a hyperbolic dishonest coined soundbyte in a desperate attempt to make it seem like one had an argument to be against equal rights.
The fact is there is no such thing, its all totally subjective. What I may consider a tradition millions other in this county may not, it was a failed attempt to put all marriages in a box and nobody really bought it outside of the circle against equal rights. The Traditional marriage claim is about as logical as a tradition music artist claim and saying snoop dogg and patsy cline are the same because they are music artists but ignore genre, and writing abilities or if one plays an instrument, if one sings and one raps, if one also produces etc etc etc.

It was and is a totally fallacy.

ANd then if that wasnt enough to expose the complete failure even if there was such a thing its still subjective so its not going to change! LMAO if two people think tradition is jumping over a pumpkin and singing yankey doodle for a wedding and then the woman is in charge of the man guess what . . . that is still what they are going to do .. so thier subjective tradition is in ZERO danger and meaningless to law and rights.

Luckily the majority of the people never took this claim seriously and saw right through its dishonesty.
 
'Traditional' is just a tag assigned to someone when an initially unpopular or uncommon version of it is presented - it's only meant to separate out 'the most common concept' from 'new concepts'.

Like: publishing used to all mean the same thing.
When self publishing became more common then publishing took on the term of 'trad (traditional) publishing'
 
I just happened to be reading about the ancient Sumerians in J.M. Roberts' history book... He gives 2250 BCE as his reference date.
How? By completely skipping the ~4500 years since Sumerian heteronormative marriage? By completely ignorning the hundreds of thousands of years of humanity, when marriage probably didn't exist?

Ever read about Heian-era Japan? In that society, "courtship" was a man sneaking his way into his intended's room for about 3 nights in a row, sending her Chinese poems (usually trite ones) every morning after. The marriage was then solemnized by the husband having tea and rice cakes with his new wife and her parents. Of course, he had almost no idea what she really looked like, since women were behind screens, and the merest hint of a woman's half-dozen sleeves was often enough to drive a man to distraction. The husband would bring his new wife home (well, sometimes), where she had to deal with the man's other 3 or 4 wives, many of whom were eventually neglected. Some women, overwhelmed with jealousy of the other wives, might pack up and go back to her parents' home. Meanwhile, marriage was predominantly a political arrangement, where the epitome was to get one's daughter married into the Emperor's household -- despite the Emperor being a powerless figurehead.

I guess you missed that part in Roberts' book, hey? :D
 
How? By completely skipping the ~4500 years since Sumerian heteronormative marriage? By completely ignorning the hundreds of thousands of years of humanity, when marriage probably didn't exist?

Ever read about Heian-era Japan? In that society, "courtship" was a man sneaking his way into his intended's room for about 3 nights in a row, sending her Chinese poems (usually trite ones) every morning after. The marriage was then solemnized by the husband having tea and rice cakes with his new wife and her parents. Of course, he had almost no idea what she really looked like, since women were behind screens, and the merest hint of a woman's half-dozen sleeves was often enough to drive a man to distraction. The husband would bring his new wife home (well, sometimes), where she had to deal with the man's other 3 or 4 wives, many of whom were eventually neglected. Some women, overwhelmed with jealousy of the other wives, might pack up and go back to her parents' home. Meanwhile, marriage was predominantly a political arrangement, where the epitome was to get one's daughter married into the Emperor's household -- despite the Emperor being a powerless figurehead.

I guess you missed that part in Roberts' book, hey? :D

That was not in the book, no. Was that your question?

Chapter 2 talks about ancient Mesopotamia and he sketches what we know about them from the archaeology --

- cuneiform writing practiced by a class of educated scribes

- formal education for their scribe class

- lists of goods and taxes

- barley, wheat, millet, and sesame production

- a recipe for millet beer

- a pantheon of local personified deities representing various forces of nature

- marriage contracts based on consent of the parents

- monogamous family units

- female adultery punishable by death

- copper and bronze metallurgy

- etc.
 
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That was not in the book, no. Was that your question?
Heh... not quite

My questions were a rhetorical device, to illustrate that you're plucking out one society in one point in time, and ignoring the multitude of societies that came before and after it, and using that to declare a cultural choice to be "traditional."

It's like saying "adultery was largely tolerated in Florence in the 14th century, therefore it is traditional to tolerate adultery."

Perhaps one of these days you should read Ms. Coontz' history of marriage, which will give you an idea of how much marriage has radically changed just in the US and Europe over the past ~500 years. Just a thought.
 
Heh... not quite

My questions were a rhetorical device, to illustrate that you're plucking out one society in one point in time, and ignoring the multitude of societies that came before and after it, and using that to declare a cultural choice to be "traditional."

It's like saying "adultery was largely tolerated in Florence in the 14th century, therefore it is traditional to tolerate adultery."

Perhaps one of these days you should read Ms. Coontz' history of marriage, which will give you an idea of how much marriage has radically changed just in the US and Europe over the past ~500 years. Just a thought.

You need to read the book -- you can get it online -- so that you can re-think your thinking on this.

Like I said, I agree with the SCOTUS regarding the 14th Amendment.

But when it comes down to defining traditional anything, ancient Sumer should suffice by anyone's criteria.
 
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