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How to fix the problem in Israel and Palestine

Masterhawk

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It seems pretty difficult to determine who has the moral high ground in Israel considering how much both sides leave out. Ask a christian or jew and they'll tell you that the IDF is only trying to protect Irael and that the palestinians don't want peace and just want to destroy israel. Muslims will usually tell you that the palestinians are victims of discrimination and will sometimes compare Israel's actions to nazi germany's policies on jews or the apartheid regime which ruled south africa until the early 90s (I'm not the one comparing them to either of those 2 things; do not take this sentence out of context).

Often the best solution to when 2 sides declare themselves as victims and demonize the other side, we can take the middle ground so what do we actually find?
On the palestinian side, we find 2 factions: Fatah and Hamas. The former wants an independent state and seems to be more willing to ccooperate with Israel while the latter is a designated terrorist organization which has sworn to destroy the jewish state (they take it a step further and deny the holocaust).

On the other side, we find Israel. On the freedom index, Israel has the highest scores higher than any middle eastern or arab country, followed by tunisia then turkey. They by far, excel the rest of the middle east in religious freedom While in most of the middle east, christians and atheists will face discrimination, in Israel The IDF also withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and have done a very good job in protecting Israeli citizens from terrorists. On the other hand, the IDF tends to go too far in protecting Israelites. Discrimination is quite prevailant; although there are laws against racism, it has not prevented the Israeli government from Israel has been accused of building settlements in the west bank. In fact, the IDF controls a majority of the west bank.

For there to be peace in Israel both sides must do a few things.

Israel:

Pass laws similar to the civil rights act and end eminent domain abuse

discontinue the construction of jewish settlements. The currently existing settlements must be converted into open cities

be willing to grant citizenship to palestinians in return for obtaining all of the west bank and end military rule there

If fatah is very uncooperative with the idea of annexation in return for equality then Israel must grant the west bank full autonomy. The IDF will still be allowed to have bases there but they will only be there to prevent terrorists. Jerusalem cannot be divided. The West Bank wall is a symbol of the segregation between the Jewish Israel and the Muslim west bank. It runs through Jerusalem and it divides it in half. In order for there to be peace, Netanyahu must tear down this wall.

topple the hamas regime, deindoctrinate the children, and be willing to grant the residents of gaza citizenship.

Palestinians:

prominent palestinian figures must denounce hamas as a terrorist organization.

end antisemitism and calls to destroy israel

the PNA police force must effectively contain terrorism


If these conditions can be achieved, Israel will have a very good relationship with Palestine especially considering that the Arab League refuses to grant Palestinian refugees citizenship.
 

ido_

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It seems pretty difficult to determine who has the moral high ground in Israel considering how much both sides leave out. Ask a christian or jew and they'll tell you that the IDF is only trying to protect Irael and that the palestinians don't want peace and just want to destroy israel. Muslims will usually tell you that the palestinians are victims of discrimination and will sometimes compare Israel's actions to nazi germany's policies on jews or the apartheid regime which ruled south africa until the early 90s (I'm not the one comparing them to either of those 2 things; do not take this sentence out of context).

Often the best solution to when 2 sides declare themselves as victims and demonize the other side, we can take the middle ground so what do we actually find?
On the palestinian side, we find 2 factions: Fatah and Hamas. The former wants an independent state and seems to be more willing to ccooperate with Israel while the latter is a designated terrorist organization which has sworn to destroy the jewish state (they take it a step further and deny the holocaust).

On the other side, we find Israel. On the freedom index, Israel has the highest scores higher than any middle eastern or arab country, followed by tunisia then turkey. They by far, excel the rest of the middle east in religious freedom While in most of the middle east, christians and atheists will face discrimination, in Israel The IDF also withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and have done a very good job in protecting Israeli citizens from terrorists. On the other hand, the IDF tends to go too far in protecting Israelites. Discrimination is quite prevailant; although there are laws against racism, it has not prevented the Israeli government from Israel has been accused of building settlements in the west bank. In fact, the IDF controls a majority of the west bank.

For there to be peace in Israel both sides must do a few things.

Israel:

Pass laws similar to the civil rights act and end eminent domain abuse

discontinue the construction of jewish settlements. The currently existing settlements must be converted into open cities

be willing to grant citizenship to palestinians in return for obtaining all of the west bank and end military rule there

If fatah is very uncooperative with the idea of annexation in return for equality then Israel must grant the west bank full autonomy. The IDF will still be allowed to have bases there but they will only be there to prevent terrorists. Jerusalem cannot be divided. The West Bank wall is a symbol of the segregation between the Jewish Israel and the Muslim west bank. It runs through Jerusalem and it divides it in half. In order for there to be peace, Netanyahu must tear down this wall.

topple the hamas regime, deindoctrinate the children, and be willing to grant the residents of gaza citizenship.

Palestinians:

prominent palestinian figures must denounce hamas as a terrorist organization.

end antisemitism and calls to destroy israel

the PNA police force must effectively contain terrorism


If these conditions can be achieved, Israel will have a very good relationship with Palestine especially considering that the Arab League refuses to grant Palestinian refugees citizenship.

why on earth do you think Israelis want to annex the entire west bank ???
why do you think Palestinians will want this?
 

Masterhawk

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why on earth do you think Israelis want to annex the entire west bank ???
why do you think Palestinians will want this?

I meant in exchange for being treated as equals. There's also the full autonomy solution
 

faithful_servant

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How about establishing a Pal. homeland that isn't part of Israel?? There's lots of land that is historically Palestinian that could be put to use for this purpose, so why not let Israel have it's little sliver of land and pour a bunch of oil $$$ into building a new and better Pal. homeland that would be even better than Israel??
 

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How about establishing a Pal. homeland that isn't part of Israel?? There's lots of land that is historically Palestinian that could be put to use for this purpose, so why not let Israel have it's little sliver of land and pour a bunch of oil $$$ into building a new and better Pal. homeland that would be even better than Israel??
And which Palestinian territories are, in your opinion, part of Israel now? What do you reckon Gaza is (for instance), Israeli?

Which lands, while we're at it, are "historically" Palestinian anyway?
 

jet57

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It seems pretty difficult to determine who has the moral high ground in Israel considering how much both sides leave out. Ask a christian or jew and they'll tell you that the IDF is only trying to protect Irael and that the palestinians don't want peace and just want to destroy israel. Muslims will usually tell you that the palestinians are victims of discrimination and will sometimes compare Israel's actions to nazi germany's policies on jews or the apartheid regime which ruled south africa until the early 90s (I'm not the one comparing them to either of those 2 things; do not take this sentence out of context).

Often the best solution to when 2 sides declare themselves as victims and demonize the other side, we can take the middle ground so what do we actually find?
On the palestinian side, we find 2 factions: Fatah and Hamas. The former wants an independent state and seems to be more willing to ccooperate with Israel while the latter is a designated terrorist organization which has sworn to destroy the jewish state (they take it a step further and deny the holocaust).

On the other side, we find Israel. On the freedom index, Israel has the highest scores higher than any middle eastern or arab country, followed by tunisia then turkey. They by far, excel the rest of the middle east in religious freedom While in most of the middle east, christians and atheists will face discrimination, in Israel The IDF also withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and have done a very good job in protecting Israeli citizens from terrorists. On the other hand, the IDF tends to go too far in protecting Israelites. Discrimination is quite prevailant; although there are laws against racism, it has not prevented the Israeli government from Israel has been accused of building settlements in the west bank. In fact, the IDF controls a majority of the west bank.

For there to be peace in Israel both sides must do a few things.

Israel:

Pass laws similar to the civil rights act and end eminent domain abuse

discontinue the construction of jewish settlements. The currently existing settlements must be converted into open cities

be willing to grant citizenship to palestinians in return for obtaining all of the west bank and end military rule there

If fatah is very uncooperative with the idea of annexation in return for equality then Israel must grant the west bank full autonomy. The IDF will still be allowed to have bases there but they will only be there to prevent terrorists. Jerusalem cannot be divided. The West Bank wall is a symbol of the segregation between the Jewish Israel and the Muslim west bank. It runs through Jerusalem and it divides it in half. In order for there to be peace, Netanyahu must tear down this wall.

topple the hamas regime, deindoctrinate the children, and be willing to grant the residents of gaza citizenship.

Palestinians:

prominent palestinian figures must denounce hamas as a terrorist organization.

end antisemitism and calls to destroy israel

the PNA police force must effectively contain terrorism


If these conditions can be achieved, Israel will have a very good relationship with Palestine especially considering that the Arab League refuses to grant Palestinian refugees citizenship.

I'm wondering if the denigration of this issue into a feud will allow any type of settlement? I think your ideas have merit and I think that both sides have contributed so much that the memories just burn too clear. I've often compared it to the expanding US and the American Indians. I sometimes think that we are generations from outgrowing the stalemate.
 

Masterhawk

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And which Palestinian territories are, in your opinion, part of Israel now? What do you reckon Gaza is (for instance), Israeli?

Which lands, while we're at it, are "historically" Palestinian anyway?

Palestine_Map_2007_(Settlements).jpg

This image proves that there are several israeli settlements and that the PNA has only half of the west bank.

And on the subject of who the land belongs to, the Jewish revolt in 70 AD is what led to many jews leaving europe. In the 600s, the caliphate gained control of the land of palestine. Before you use that as a justification for the Israeli government to continue with settlements, keep in mind the composition of the United states. Using your logic, we should cede Arizona, California, New mexico, and Texas to Mexico because it used to belong to them. We should also give Oklahoma back to the Sioux indians. Do you really want America to withdraw back to its original 13 states because the rest of America is historically native american?
 

Chagos

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View attachment 67205471

This image proves that there are several israeli settlements and that the PNA has only half of the west bank.

And on the subject of who the land belongs to, the Jewish revolt in 70 AD is what led to many jews leaving europe. In the 600s, the caliphate gained control of the land of palestine. Before you use that as a justification for the Israeli government to continue with settlements, keep in mind the composition of the United states. Using your logic, we should cede Arizona, California, New mexico, and Texas to Mexico because it used to belong to them. We should also give Oklahoma back to the Sioux indians. Do you really want America to withdraw back to its original 13 states because the rest of America is historically native american?
Just so as not to be misunderstood, I'm not prone to use any historical or religious claims as justification on who is to have what in that particular M.E. conflict. That "hesitation" would extend to any settlements being made by whoever (here Israel).

I was simply addressing the statement (not made by you)
There's lots of land that is historically Palestinian
. With me insinuating in the process that both West Bank and Gaza might be deemed as such already by their respective inhabitants.

Again "Palestinian" as a historical label being somewhat questionable even where it makes basically no difference in the issue.

What, however, is deemed (by the poster I responded to) historically Palestinian?
 

coldjoint

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And which Palestinian territories are, in your opinion, part of Israel now? What do you reckon Gaza is (for instance), Israeli?

Which lands, while we're at it, are "historically" Palestinian anyway?

Palestine was never a country. It has no historical claims.
 

Masterhawk

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Palestine was never a country. It has no historical claims.

the arabs lived in the land of palestine longer than we americans lived in america. Using your logic, the USA should be replaced by countries belonging to native americans since the land historically belonged to them
 

coldjoint

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the arabs lived in the land of palestine longer than we americans lived in america. Using your logic, the USA should be replaced by countries belonging to native americans since the land historically belonged to them

Arabs, not Palestinians. And Arabs were nomads.
 

Masterhawk

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Arabs, not Palestinians. And Arabs were nomads.

then we're not americans, we're europeans. Also, arabs who lived in major cities such as Damascus or Baghdad could hardly be considered nomadic, even before oil was discovered.
 

coldjoint

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then we're not americans, we're europeans. Also, arabs who lived in major cities such as Damascus or Baghdad could hardly be considered nomadic, even before oil was discovered.

After the revolution they were Americans. That is a country. Again, Palestine was never a country. They have no claim to the land.
 

ido_

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I meant in exchange for being treated as equals. There's also the full autonomy solution

again with the equals, Palestinians want independence, not being Israeli. Israeli Arabs are treated as equals.

what do you define as full autonomy?
Palestinians have autonomy since the Oslo accords
 

Masterhawk

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again with the equals, Palestinians want independence, not being Israeli. Israeli Arabs are treated as equals.

what do you define as full autonomy?
Palestinians have autonomy since the Oslo accords

full autonomy would grant the PNA full authority over the west bank (Except jerusalem; they share the entire city with Israel) but the IDF can still exercise dominion under probable cause of terrorism (it's like the 4th amendment). It will ultimately be the PNA's responsibility to maintain order and stomp out terrorism in Palestine but if they fail to do so then the IDF can intervene. Anti ballistic missile systems would fire a missile if a rocket entered the airspace of Israel or Palestine. The construction of Israeli settlements would discontinue and the existing settlements would be converted into open cities for the palestinians.
 

SDET

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the arabs lived in the land of palestine longer than we americans lived in america. Using your logic, the USA should be replaced by countries belonging to native americans since the land historically belonged to them

Here's what I read about the term "Palestinian".

Prior to 1964 the Arabs in Palestine called themselves "citizens of Greater Syria".

Think-Israel

If you have a pre-1964 source that refers to "Palestinians", I would like to see it.

American Indians have a history that goes way before 1964.
 

Masterhawk

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Here's what I read about the term "Palestinian".



Think-Israel

If you have a pre-1964 source that refers to "Palestinians", I would like to see it.

American Indians have a history that goes way before 1964.

makes you wonder why the governments of syria, Iraq, and Lebannon never tried to join together
 

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makes you wonder why the governments of syria, Iraq, and Lebannon never tried to join together
Syria virtually owned Lebanon not all that long ago (having practically taken it over).
 

ido_

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full autonomy would grant the PNA full authority over the west bank (Except jerusalem; they share the entire city with Israel) but the IDF can still exercise dominion under probable cause of terrorism (it's like the 4th amendment). It will ultimately be the PNA's responsibility to maintain order and stomp out terrorism in Palestine but if they fail to do so then the IDF can intervene. Anti ballistic missile systems would fire a missile if a rocket entered the airspace of Israel or Palestine. The construction of Israeli settlements would discontinue and the existing settlements would be converted into open cities for the palestinians.

You are describing the Oslo accords, thats the situation today
 

Masterhawk

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You are describing the Oslo accords, thats the situation today

but israel is building a wall along the west bank and divides Jerusalem. They are also building settlements and although they are illegal under international law, the UN has done nothing
 

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but israel is building a wall along the west bank and divides Jerusalem. They are also building settlements and although they are illegal under international law, the UN has done nothing

1. the wall (which is in most areas a fence) is for security purposes and is mostly along the 67 border
2. Jerusalem was divided in 67, what exactly is your problem there, the Palestinian 2 state solution is all about dividing Jerusalem. Also, in east Jerusalem, all Palestinians have been given resident status and may apply for citizenship if they want to, their status is not relevant to your original op where you speak of rights and equality.
3. Israel is not building new settlements, Israel is building within the borders of existing settlements and in the past 2 years Israel even stopped building in existing settlements, the situation is so absurd that the government didn't even allow a permit to build handicap ramp for a soldier who was seriously wounded in the last campaign in Gaza.

You were speaking about autonomy for the Palestinians in their territory, I don't understand how any of these are arguments you mentioned are relevant to the fact this is the present situation in the west bank since the Oslo accords.
 

Red_Dave

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Neither was most of the Middle East, or indeed the world untill very recently (1). ´countries´ are a very new phenomena. I´ve no idea why such an absurd non sequitur is allowed to persist.

1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l53bmKYXliA

Ultimately it is because there was not a distinct group of peoples living within that area who were entitled to self-determination. They were a portion of a population living in a much broader territory, a small portion of which was lost in a period of war, rapid change, and massive population migrations. Why they have more of a right to territories they no longer control as compared to, say, the Sudeten Germans, is anyone's guess. As it stands now, though, the Palestinians in the WB and Gaza should get self determination and a state once they have demonstrated their willingness to give up their war against the Jews.

Of course, their own state need not have any geographic similarity to the armistice lines, only that their state include for the territory in which the bulk of their population resides.

And that is where this issue of "historic claims" becomes relevant, I think. Because they not only want the areas where they actually live, but they want more territory because that territory was controlled by Jordan before it was controlled by Israel. They didn't live there before, they don't live there now in any meaningful numbers, but they want it nonetheless.

And some of it they may need for territorial contiguity issues or because the territory naturally surrounds their population centres. But for them to argue it is all theirs because of the 1949 cease fire lines necessarily leads to the question of what entitled them to those areas at that time and whether they really were a people at that time that would have given them a right to lands controlled by the Ottomans, British, Jordanians or Israelis.
 

jet57

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Syria virtually owned Lebanon not all that long ago (having practically taken it over).

They surely planted Hamas; so say my Lebanese friends.

can you expand on the ownership thing? I know that French influence was very heavy there, and they were the garden country for a long long time.
 

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