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How to Cut Child Poverty in Half.

You arent going to end child poverty by enacting more government giveaway programs for the chirruns. You will impact child poverty by engaging their PARENTS. THAT is precisely what the discussion has been about.

Well...no...it has also been about continuing to excuse pathetic failures and blaming their problems on the rich people, or pretending somehow the problem really starts with water rights in Bumfu Egypt and NOT with irresponsible people that cant even take care of themselves having children they cant provide for.

Again the thread topic is "How to Cut Child Poverty in Half" and your answer is not to excuse their parent's pathetic failures, how will not excusing their parents cut the child poverty rate in half?
 
Again the thread topic is "How to Cut Child Poverty in Half" and your answer is not to excuse their parent's pathetic failures, how will not excusing their parents cut the child poverty rate in half?

Its not a question of blaming their parents...to choose a popular tagline, the debate is over there. It is a question of motivating their PARENTS to change to end or reduce child poverty. Unless of course you want the govt to slide in and snatch up all the chirruns, house them, feed them, raise them, etc...
 


My response is of one that is not interested in watching two hours of videos from locations in third world countries because someone is too lazy or is incapable of actually making their own point. Did YOU watch them or are you just going to be like Winston and jump on in for the sake of a snarky smarmy little comment? What is YOUR contribution beyond some snippy little yap? Since YOU apparently watched them maybe YOU can state his point for him. Please...jump in there and show how rich people are stealing from the poor...the original premise.

Even if I had typed out every point made in those videos, you're response would have been the same because ultimately, you're here to blog-not debate.

Also: THERE WAS AN ENTIRE VIDEO ON HOW THE WEALTHY EXPLOITED PEOPLE IN THE US. But I'm guessing that you already knew that.

:shrug: within a very broad scope, perhaps. in fact, it is the middle class who are getting richer. The vast majority of our millionaires are first-generation and self-made. but they required (most of them) a high school education, clothes, food to grow up with, etc; and all of that did take money.

:shock: How can anyone actually believe that?? The middle class is NOT getting richer? Not at all. The middle class is shrinking and wages are stagnate especially when considering that the cost of living is increasing.


this is actually completely incorrect. as measured by the people who actually succeed.



actually millionaires are precisely the demographic I am thinking of.

If this is the sort of thing that interests you, i might suggest a particularly well-written fascinating piece of work:

The Millionaire Next Door

If you can provide a source I don't have to pay to read, I'd be happy to actually consider it, unlike certain people here.
 
Its not a question of blaming their parents...to choose a popular tagline, the debate is over there. It is a question of motivating their PARENTS to change to end or reduce child poverty. Unless of course you want the govt to slide in and snatch up all the chirruns, house them, feed them, raise them, etc...

First they are not "chirruns" they are "children" born into and living in poverty, how would "you" motivate their parents? Your being insulting to children by referring to them as chirruns and evading the question of how to cut child poverty
 
First they are not "chirruns" they are "children" born into and living in poverty, how would "you" motivate their parents? Your being insulting to children by referring to them as chirruns and evading the question of how to cut child poverty

actually, he did give us a suggestion. just not a feasible one
somehow, over nite, we are going to get the irresponsible parents who bore children into this world being unable to care for them and get them to possess the skills and intentions of becoming productive wage earning citizens who contribute to the system rather than take from it
that way, he gets to ignore the fact that his "solution" is not possible while another generation of unwanted kids is raised in poverty ... continuing the cycle
 
actually, he did give us a suggestion. just not a feasible one
somehow, over nite, we are going to get the irresponsible parents who bore children into this world being unable to care for them and get them to possess the skills and intentions of becoming productive wage earning citizens who contribute to the system rather than take from it
that way, he gets to ignore the fact that his "solution" is not possible while another generation of unwanted kids is raised in poverty ... continuing the cycle

On the contrary...its not going to happen overnight. It wont end with a snap of the fingers. Hell...undoing 30-40 years of wreckless irresponsibility is going to take some serious hard work. Put it off more...go ahead...THATS going to solve the problems. Continue to blame 'the rich' for the miserable life failures...see how successful that makes everyone. Continue to put the poor little critters on their wee little heads and take care of them...THATS humane...

It changes by INSISTING parents stand on their own to feet, not encouraging them to continue to grovel at your feet. It IS their fault. make sure they GET that message along with the fact that they CAN change. Then...provide that opportunity for CHANGE. I have stated that on numerous occaisions and at least twice in this thread. Hell...Im probably more liberal than MOST of you here when it comes to provide effective and substantive resources for change.
 
First they are not "chirruns" they are "children" born into and living in poverty, how would "you" motivate their parents? Your being insulting to children by referring to them as chirruns and evading the question of how to cut child poverty

Awww...Im sorry you feel insulted by my use of the word chirruns. Calling the majority of the dependent class (and specifically those that CAN provide for themselves but refuse to) crippled and dependent pets must just about make you lose your freqin mind!

Ive said NUMEROUS times what I would do to bring about positive change. I DO things daily to bring about positive change but first people have to become self motivated...thats not something you, me, or anyone else can give them.
 
On the contrary...its not going to happen overnight. It wont end with a snap of the fingers. Hell...undoing 30-40 years of wreckless irresponsibility is going to take some serious hard work. Put it off more...go ahead...THATS going to solve the problems. Continue to blame 'the rich' for the miserable life failures...see how successful that makes everyone. Continue to put the poor little critters on their wee little heads and take care of them...THATS humane...

To change the status quo every one has to get into the game, denying that there is a problem will not make it go away


It changes by INSISTING parents stand on their own to feet, not encouraging them to continue to grovel at your feet. It IS their fault. make sure they GET that message along with the fact that they CAN change. Then...provide that opportunity for CHANGE. I have stated that on numerous occaisions and at least twice in this thread. Hell...Im probably more liberal than MOST of you here when it comes to provide effective and substantive resources for change.

I agree with you parents have to provide a positive role model if the cycle of poverty is ever to be broken, it won't be an easy conversion to move the impoverished from welfare to workfare but that is where it has to start, it is not an impossible task to accomplish. Children need all of the life necessities nutritious food, shelter, clothing, education and good role models
 
To change the status quo every one has to get into the game, denying that there is a problem will not make it go away
I agree with you parents have to provide a positive role model if the cycle of poverty is ever to be broken, it won't be an easy conversion to move the impoverished from welfare to workfare but that is where it has to start, it is not an impossible task to accomplish. Children need all of the life necessities nutritious food, shelter, clothing, education and good role models

Who is denying the problem? Im all up in your bizness about 'the problem'. You want change...fix the problem. Get anxiously engaged in the fix RIGHT NOW. Teach it...preach it...responsibility. An end to the free ride and handout programs. Starting right now. Stand up. OK...crawl a while if you have to...grovelling for 30-40 years has probably cause some atrophy...but dammit GET UP!!! NOW. No more excuses. No more whining. NOW.

Unite behind that message and see if things dont change.
 
Who is denying the problem? Im all up in your bizness about 'the problem'. You want change...fix the problem. Get anxiously engaged in the fix RIGHT NOW. Teach it...preach it...responsibility. An end to the free ride and handout programs. Starting right now. Stand up. OK...crawl a while if you have to...grovelling for 30-40 years has probably cause some atrophy...but dammit GET UP!!! NOW. No more excuses. No more whining. NOW.

Unite behind that message and see if things dont change.

Jobs will be the key that opens the door, handouts need to be made into hand-ups, Words will change nothing it will take actions to make permmanent changes, Adults need to be role models, role models need to work to earn their checks, children have to be the first priority they need nutritious food, shelter, clothing, education,positive parental role models and health care. the tax payer will have to continue to foot the bill until poverty is wiped out
 
Jobs will be the key that opens the door, handouts need to be made into hand-ups, Words will change nothing it will take actions to make permmanent changes, Adults need to be role models, role models need to work to earn their checks, children have to be the first priority they need nutritious food, shelter, clothing, education,positive parental role models and health care. the tax payer will have to continue to foot the bill until poverty is wiped out

So you DID read my posts on how to bring about change.
 
The title of this thread is " How to Cut Child Poverty in Half " it seems like we are way off topic. Children do not have the choice as to who there parents are nor in what social enviroment they will be born into,children can not and should not be held accountable for their birth parents nor the environment that they are born into. Some children a very small percentage may escape the poverty cycle but the majority of them will bring the next generation of children born into poverty.

I don't know if I would call it a "very small percentage". A 1995 Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas report showed that almost three-fourths of those in the bottom quintile in 1975 were in a higher quintile by 1991, and a 2000 Economic Policy Institute study showed that almost 60 percent of Americans in the lowest income quintile in 1969 were in a higher quintile in 1996

however, you are correct to note that we have - for the first time in our nations history - seen over the past half-century the development of a "cycle of poverty" wherein our poorest elements have ceased to make the responsible decisions necessary to leave their children off better than themselves, and have instead passed on a fiscally destructive lifestyle. Much of our multi-generational poverty, sadly, has come to us because of our anti-poverty programs. Further reform of government anti-poverty measures that build on the excellent example of Welfare Reform in the late 90's that encourage marriage, work, and savings could yield powerful positive effects for our poor.

To sit on a high and mighty perch and preach about how wonderful you are shows your disconnect from the realities that poor children have to deal with even before they can crawl.

I agree, which is why I loathe the pretensions of the "limousine liberal" types who try to tell us that one is "against the poor" if one opposes giving them aid in ways that hurt them. I've raised a family on an income that rated us food stamps. When I was a child we saved up all month to go to Shoneys'. Relatives on both sides of my family are on Medicaid. I've seen the "single-parent-cycle" play out in my family. For those who wish to pretend that single-parent families are "just another option" or that one can't make it without direct transfer payments if one is of the working poor, I have seen their claims shown to be lies. people who take their "high and mighty perch" in a discussion abouthow to best help the poor are engaging in emotionalism to cover for the weakness and shallowness of their ideas.
 
EarlzP said:
Jobs will be the key that opens the door, handouts need to be made into hand-ups, Words will change nothing it will take actions to make permmanent changes, Adults need to be role models, role models need to work to earn their checks, children have to be the first priority they need nutritious food, shelter, clothing, education,positive parental role models and health care.

amen to all this.

the tax payer will have to continue to foot the bill until poverty is wiped out

because so much of poverty (today) is behavioral, sadly, it will never be wiped out. the destruction of freedom that would be necessary to force positive decisions on the poor would wreck the economic engine necessary to improve them. and we have discovered that a blanket "tax payers foot the bill" model merely breeds dependency, reduces the incentives for engaging in the fine behaviors you list above, and thus leaves families stuck in poverty. Better models are needed.
 
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I don't know if I would call it a "very small percentage". A 1995 Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas report showed that almost three-fourths of those in the bottom quintile in 1975 were in a higher quintile by 1991, and a 2000 Economic Policy Institute study showed that almost 60 percent of Americans in the lowest income quintile in 1969 were in a higher quintile in 1996

however, you are correct to note that we have - for the first time in our nations history - seen over the past half-century the development of a "cycle of poverty" wherein our poorest elements have ceased to make the responsible decisions necessary to leave their children off better than themselves, and have instead passed on a fiscally destructive lifestyle. Much of our multi-generational poverty, sadly, has come to us because of our anti-poverty programs. Further reform of government anti-poverty measures that build on the excellent example of Welfare Reform in the late 90's that encourage marriage, work, and savings could yield powerful positive effects for our poor.



I agree, which is why I loathe the pretensions of the "limousine liberal" types who try to tell us that one is "against the poor" if one opposes giving them aid in ways that hurt them. I've raised a family on an income that rated us food stamps. When I was a child we saved up all month to go to Shoneys'. Relatives on both sides of my family are on Medicaid. I've seen the "single-parent-cycle" play out in my family. For those who wish to pretend that single-parent families are "just another option" or that one can't make it without direct transfer payments if one is of the working poor, I have seen their claims shown to be lies. people who take their "high and mighty perch" in a discussion abouthow to best help the poor are engaging in emotionalism to cover for the weakness and shallowness of their ideas.

so, do you propose that our society turn a blind eye to the chidren born into poverty and withhold providing public assistance to their families?
if not, then what is your mechanism of change?
 
Good response

well, i care about this stuff - conservatives don't spend nearly enough time here.

Just as you believe that 'get a college degree' (RE later on in the post) won't solve all ails - neither will a standard marriage. Countless families are are married and together are in the system - child poverty is not just a byproduct of single parenting.

no, but the title of this thread is "cut child poverty in half"not "reduce child poverty entirely". If you are looking for single-issue solutions that will result in major reduction in child poverty, marriage is the best of the best. If you're looking for a pathway that will end child poverty entirely, you need an eschaton.

The real deal, here, then is that it's such a complicated issue - no one solutoin will solve it all . . . it's a vast problem with many different reasons and responses to take.

precisely but we are looking for the best options to produce the best long-term results.

However - I don't believe that the solution is to force two to marry just because a child comes into the picture

I agree - force shouldn't enter the picture. however, we can reduce the ease with which we break up couples, we can increase the incentives to get and remain married, and we can reduce the incentives to remain apart. Generally speaking, however, this is an issue for society at large to tackle - it is beyond the realm of government. Not marrying the woman you impregnate needs to become source of shame again in the public square. The hook-up baby-daddy/baby-momma no-fault-divorce culture needs to be axed.

- or requiring one individual to just be a free daycare (which is what being a sahm is)

that is absolute bull**** and i spell that out because i want to emphasize that i mean it.

or to rely on one person to be a workhorse and breadwinner.

40 hours of work a week is generally what is needed to get and stay out of poverty. Most start out making relatively little and end up making relatively more.

I mean - someone can be a single parent and just as well be a bump on a log via caring for their child daily

true and that is also where society (not government) should come into play.

I don't know about how I feel about this - seems like everyone should know they might live to be elderly. They have a set period of quite a lot of time before they get there . . .by the time they arrive - in 50/60 years or more - they should be ready.

they should be, but currently we have a culture of fat, short-sighted, instant-gratification, super-consumers who take out HELOC's to buy the latest big flat-screen television. Given that we have already agreed to force ourselves to provide for retirement, it seems that we might as well do so in a way that actually works.

I see that as complete personal decision (or lack of) creating their own problems. . . but, as with childhood poverty - not everyone becoems poor in the same way. Some were prepared and the nmany unforseen circumstances came about and they were robbed of their careful planning . . .**** happens.

truth.

Post-highschool education isn't just a college degree like a BA in Business or an AS in Accounting. There are certification programs, hands on training, learn to work and other countless progress that couple education with employment and preparation - within a year, 2 or more years - for a more sound future.

Anyone who has experience, even if it's just maintenance and repair work - will have a better chance at finding a more stable job in the future.

:) virtually impossible to offshore a plumber. the problem you run into here is the unions, who seek to limit entry into the job-field in order to maintain higher prices.
 
so, do you propose that our society turn a blind eye to the chidren born into poverty and withhold providing public assistance to their families?
if not, then what is your mechanism of change?

copying my earlier posts:



[O]ur nation can readily reduce remaining poverty, especially among children. To accomplish this, we must focus on the main causes of child poverty: low levels of parental work and high levels of single parenthood.

In good economic times or bad, the typical poor family with children is supported by only 800 hours of work during a year: That amounts to 16 hours of work per week. If work in each family were raised to 2,000 hours per year the equivalent of one adult working 40 hours per week through the year nearly 75 percent of poor children would be lifted out of official poverty.

The decline in marriage is the second major cause of child poverty. Nearly twothirds of poor children reside in singleparent homes; each year, an additional 1.3 million children are born out of wedlock. Increasing marriage would substantially reduce child poverty: If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, almost three quarters would immediately be lifted out of poverty.

In recent years, the United States has established a reasonable record in reducing child poverty. Successful antipoverty policies were partially implemented in the welfare reform legislation of 1996, which replaced the old Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program with a new program called Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF).

A key element of this reform was a requirement that some welfare mothers either prepare for work or get jobs as a condition of receiving aid. As this requirement went into effect, welfare rolls plummeted and employment of single mothers increased in an unprecedented manner. As employment of single mothers rose, child poverty dropped rapidly. For example, in the quartercentury before welfare reform, there was no net change in the poverty rate of children in singlemother families; after reform was enacted, the poverty rate dropped in an unprecedented fashion, falling from 53.1 percent in 1995 to 39.8 percent in 2001.....

If child poverty is to be substantially reduced, welfare must be transformed. Ablebodied parents must be required to work or prepare for work, and the welfare system should encourage rather than penalize marriage...


(and, two posts later: this is all on page 19 if you are looking for context)


well, given that the two best ways to increase child poverty would be to have their parents marry, and then have at least one of them work full time. Currently two-thirds of our poor children live in a single-parent household, and are supported by only 16 hours of work a week. an easy thing to say in an economy with 9.1% unemployment, I know - but that is a situation that will not remain forever. Government regulations which punish rather than reward marriage should be altered. Government regulations which present a higher barrier to hiring should be streamlined and revoked, and I would say the child-tax-credit should be expanded, even as the rest of the code is flattened in accordance with the Bowles-Simpson recommendations. A depressingly high percentage of our poor children will receive "education" only in the sense that they will spend a few hours a day in a school building; instituting school choice programs for our lower and lower middle classes would provide a powerful means for them to break the cycle of poverty by ensuring that their children receive knowledge, skills, and work ethics that will make them more competitive in the job market. Medicaid can be reformed to an HSA model, which allows the poor to maintain their access to healthcare while building wealth (and, incidentally, helping to provide downward pressure on costs). Indiana did this and the CATO (libertarian think tank) guys went nuts because they were worried it made Medicaid too good, and poor people wouldn't want to leave it for a "regular" plan.

Poverty in the elderly is a tougher nut to crack, largely because we have already tried to solve this with massive pyramid schemes, and those schemes have failed us. No matter whose "plan" you choose, the reality is that Medicare and Social Security expenditures will be reduced sharply off the baseline in future years. Social Security should instead be altered to a system that allows low-income workers to own their own accounts, which grow tax-free, and will let them retire financially independent. When I ran the numbers for a thread a few months ago, I found that simply by diverting 2/3rds of his FICA tax into a personalized account (the rest would go to continue to fund benefits for current retirees), a man who never earned more than $32,000 a year in his entire working life could nonetheless retire a millionaire. So, while for our current crop, the best we can do is reform Medicare to allow market pressure to push down cost while means-testing the benefits so that they aid the poor more while helping the wealthy less - for future elderly, we can do quit a bit.
 
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copying my earlier posts:



[O]ur nation can readily reduce remaining poverty, especially among children. To accomplish this, we must focus on the main causes of child poverty: low levels of parental work and high levels of single parenthood.

In good economic times or bad, the typical poor family with children is supported by only 800 hours of work during a year: That amounts to 16 hours of work per week. If work in each family were raised to 2,000 hours per year the equivalent of one adult working 40 hours per week through the year nearly 75 percent of poor children would be lifted out of official poverty.

The decline in marriage is the second major cause of child poverty. Nearly twothirds of poor children reside in singleparent homes; each year, an additional 1.3 million children are born out of wedlock. Increasing marriage would substantially reduce child poverty: If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, almost three quarters would immediately be lifted out of poverty.

In recent years, the United States has established a reasonable record in reducing child poverty. Successful antipoverty policies were partially implemented in the welfare reform legislation of 1996, which replaced the old Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program with a new program called Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF).

A key element of this reform was a requirement that some welfare mothers either prepare for work or get jobs as a condition of receiving aid. As this requirement went into effect, welfare rolls plummeted and employment of single mothers increased in an unprecedented manner. As employment of single mothers rose, child poverty dropped rapidly. For example, in the quartercentury before welfare reform, there was no net change in the poverty rate of children in singlemother families; after reform was enacted, the poverty rate dropped in an unprecedented fashion, falling from 53.1 percent in 1995 to 39.8 percent in 2001.....

If child poverty is to be substantially reduced, welfare must be transformed. Ablebodied parents must be required to work or prepare for work, and the welfare system should encourage rather than penalize marriage...


(and, two posts later: this is all on page 19 if you are looking for context)


well, given that the two best ways to increase child poverty would be to have their parents marry, and then have at least one of them work full time. Currently two-thirds of our poor children live in a single-parent household, and are supported by only 16 hours of work a week. an easy thing to say in an economy with 9.1% unemployment, I know - but that is a situation that will not remain forever. Government regulations which punish rather than reward marriage should be altered. Government regulations which present a higher barrier to hiring should be streamlined and revoked, and I would say the child-tax-credit should be expanded, even as the rest of the code is flattened in accordance with the Bowles-Simpson recommendations. A depressingly high percentage of our poor children will receive "education" only in the sense that they will spend a few hours a day in a school building; instituting school choice programs for our lower and lower middle classes would provide a powerful means for them to break the cycle of poverty by ensuring that their children receive knowledge, skills, and work ethics that will make them more competitive in the job market. Medicaid can be reformed to an HSA model, which allows the poor to maintain their access to healthcare while building wealth (and, incidentally, helping to provide downward pressure on costs). Indiana did this and the CATO (libertarian think tank) guys went nuts because they were worried it made Medicaid too good, and poor people wouldn't want to leave it for a "regular" plan.

Poverty in the elderly is a tougher nut to crack, largely because we have already tried to solve this with massive pyramid schemes, and those schemes have failed us. No matter whose "plan" you choose, the reality is that Medicare and Social Security expenditures will be reduced sharply off the baseline in future years. Social Security should instead be altered to a system that allows low-income workers to own their own accounts, which grow tax-free, and will let them retire financially independent. When I ran the numbers for a thread a few months ago, I found that simply by diverting 2/3rds of his FICA tax into a personalized account (the rest would go to continue to fund benefits for current retirees), a man who never earned more than $32,000 a year in his entire working life could nonetheless retire a millionaire. So, while for our current crop, the best we can do is reform Medicare to allow market pressure to push down cost while means-testing the benefits so that they aid the poor more while helping the wealthy less - for future elderly, we can do quit a bit.

So lets just get to the bottom line you think we can cut child poverty rates in half by forcing the parents to get married or forcing the parents to work or be in job training and if they refuse you would cut off aid? Is that your solution?
 
So lets just get to the bottom line you think we can cut child poverty rates in half by forcing the parents to get married or forcing the parents to work or be in job training and if they refuse you would cut off aid? Is that your solution?

there is no doubt that the people who are least capable of producing children who will not be a drag on society are the people who often have the highest rates of breeding.
 
EarlzP said:
So lets just get to the bottom line you think we can cut child poverty rates in half by forcing the parents to get married or forcing the parents to work or be in job training and if they refuse you would cut off aid? Is that your solution?

No. I think the biggest "bang for the buck" that we will see in reducing child poverty will come from encouraging marriage and finding ways to reduce the current restrictions that keep people from finding employment while encouraging those parents to do so. Child poverty is particularly rampant in African Americans - yet laws passed specifically to keep poor African Americans from being able to find work are still on the books and still widely enforced.
 
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there is no doubt that the people who are least capable of producing children who will not be a drag on society are the people who often have the highest rates of breeding.

and your 'solution' to this 'problem'?
 
stop government programs that encourage irresponsible breeding

Specifically, what are those programs and what makes you believe even if you stopped them they would have any effect? People had children in large numbers in poverty long before the government offered any real assistance. See the Gilded Age for proof. It did not matter then.

When you decided to breed was wealth a consideration before you engaged in acts of breeding?
 
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