How to add 9+6...

[the_recruit]

Parents are only mad because they weren't taught this way, so it's confusing. "My child used to be good at math and now they're frustrated." No, your child used to get good grades in math. There's a distinct difference. You suck at math, and so does your child.

QFT

It's just embarrassing watching grown adults make a big deal over this.

 

[sangha]

If "makes $4.40" refers to Donna's gross sales

It doesn't. It refers to profit. It clearly says that in the problem.

OK, but one more element is needed to provide the final answer of how many apples Donna originally bought.

Wrong. The equation Gaius posted is all that's needed to solve the problem correctly.

 

[the_recruit]

The problem I have with the question cited is that it is incoherent. Think about it some more.

What's incoherent about it?

I did in my head in about 10 seconds.

45(x-2) -35x = 440
45x-90-35x=440
10x = 530
x=53

 

[the_recruit]

Also, and this does not affect the incoherence issue, are we supposed to assume that the 70 cents Donna paid for the two apples she ate should be included when accounting for the in the $4.40 "she makes" after selling the rest of the apples? Ambiguous question are always unfair and always piss me off.

You're missing the point. The question may have been worded poorly (though I disagree, it's very clear to me what they were asking) but that's not what makes it a more challenging problem. The problem is more difficult because, even if you clearly understood what was being asked, it requires more advanced mathematics (algebraic reasoning) to solve.

No one is suggesting that we make problems more challenging by using obfuscating language. People are suggesting we make problems more challenging by requiring a higher level of mathematical reasoning to solve them.

 

[USViking]

What's incoherent about it?

I did in my head in about 10 seconds.

45(x-2) -35x = 440
45x-90-35x=440
10x = 530
x=53

See post #s 122 and 125.

 

[USViking]

You're missing the point. The question may have been worded poorly (though I disagree, it's very clear to me what they were asking) but that's not what makes it a more challenging problem. The problem is more difficult because, even if you clearly understood what was being asked, it requires more advanced mathematics (algebraic reasoning) to solve.

No one is suggesting that we make problems more challenging by using obfuscating language. People are suggesting we make problems more challenging by requiring a higher level of mathematical reasoning to solve them.

I have not suggested that CC introduces ambiguity deliberately, and I do not object to challenging problems as long as they are grade level appropriate and clearly composed.

 

[the_recruit]

I have not suggested that CC introduces ambiguity deliberately, and I do not object to challenging problems as long as they are grade level appropriate and clearly composed.

Then what are you complaining about? Everyone agrees that problems should be worded so that it's clear as to what is being asked. That you found an example of a problem in a CC curriculum that isn't worded clearly doesn't mean anything.

 

[USViking]

It doesn't. It refers to profit. It clearly says that in the problem.

"Makes" is not a standard financial term, and it is not a synonym for "earns a profit of".

Wrong. The equation Gaius posted is all that's needed to solve the problem correctly.

As Gaius says his equation solves for apples sold. However, the CC problems asks for apples bought.

 

[ttwtt78640]

....in 3 or 4 easy steps!



Now maybe this is a dumb question but if the kid knows how to "deconstruct" the number 6 don't they already know the principle of addition? Don't they have to know the principle to figure out that 9+1 equals 10?

To become proficient in base 10 math it is common to know (memorize?) the sum of any single digit number pairs. There is no need to learn to "deconstruct" the number 6 (or any other single digit from 0 to 9) in order to understand addition/subtraction.

 

[sangha]

"Makes" is not a standard financial term, and it is not a synonym for "earns a profit of".

Guess what?

Standard financial terms are not part of the standard curriculum in middle school. You could argue that maybe they should be, but they they're not. Furthermore, this would not be the first time these kids have seen a question worded like that. Word problems that talk about how much money was "made" are standard and common. I've seen them over and over again when tutoring middle schools students in math. They do not distinguish between net and gross profit.

As Gaius says his equation solves for apples sold. However, the CC problems asks for apples bought.

If you know what "apples sold" is (ie "x-2) then it's a simple matter to calculate "apples bought" (ie "x")

IOW, it solves either one.

 

[USViking]

Then what are you complaining about?

Inadvertent ambiguity.

Everyone agrees that problems should be worded so that it's clear as to what is being asked. That you found an example of a problem in a CC curriculum that isn't worded clearly doesn't mean anything.

I take issue with all poorly worded problems. I might be more forgiving if I could be confident there were not enough of them to significantly increase then amount of time students waste trying to figure out exactly what a question means. And remember, we are talking about children ~12-13 years old.

 

[AliHajiSheik]

The only math I find difficult is comparing the price of gas per gallon in Europe to the price at home.

 

[the_recruit]

Inadvertent ambiguity.



I take issue with all poorly worded problems. I might be more forgiving if I could be confident there were not enough of them to significantly increase then amount of time students waste trying to figure out exactly what a question means. And remember, we are talking about children ~12-13 years old.

But this goes without saying. Everybody agrees that problems should not be worded poorly. It has nothing to do with CC vs non-CC.

 

[USViking]

Guess what?

Standard financial terms are not part of the standard curriculum in middle school. You could argue that maybe they should be, but they they're not. Furthermore, this would not be the first time these kids have seen a question worded like that. Word problems that talk about how much money was "made" are standard and common. I've seen them over and over again when tutoring middle schools students in math. They do not distinguish between net and gross profit.

Guess what?

For such a basic standard term as "profit" to be left out of the MS curriculum does nothing so much as provide evidence of the inadequacies of the educational profession. That means you. In fact "profit" would be a good word to introduce no later than K6.

And I am curious: since "makes" refers to profit then what words are used for "revenue" and "income" or are those the words used. If they are the words used then I wonder how "profit" could continue to be left out of the vocabulary.

If you know what "apples sold" is (ie "x-2) then it's a simple matter to calculate "apples bought" (ie "x")

IOW, it solves either one.

If you want an equation which solves for "apples brought" then an equation which solves for "apples sold" is inadequate. I understand it would probably get a score of 110% in this era of social promotion, though.

See the_recruit's post #128 for an equation that gets the job done.

 

[sangha]

Guess what?

For such a basic standard term as "profit" to be left out of the MS curriculum does nothing so much as provide evidence of the inadequacies of the educational profession. That means you. In fact "profit" would be a good word to introduce no later than K6.

And I am curious: since "makes" refers to profit then what words are used for "revenue" and "income" or are those the words used. If they are the words used then I wonder how "profit" could continue to be left out of the vocabulary.

It's a math class, not a business class. The kids have plenty of experience with those questions and they know what "makes" means.

If you want an equation which solves for "apples brought" then an equation which solves for "apples sold" is inadequate. I understand it would probably get a score of 110% in this era of social promotion, though.

See the_recruit's post #128 for an equation that gets the job done.

No, since apples bought is 2 greater than apples sold (the problem states this clearly), the equation is adequate.

 

[USViking]

But this goes without saying. Everybody agrees that problems should not be worded poorly. It has nothing to do with CC vs non-CC.

CC is supposed to be a culmination of decades of attempts at educational reform. After all that time they could at least be able to provide the questions, all of the questions, with damn near perfect clarity.

OP of this thread cited another CC question over on another board which is actually much worse than the one I posted here. I hope he won't mind if I mention it here:

CC Sample Questions

(Question 15, Page 4 of link):
Juanita wants to give bags of stickers to her friends. She wants to give the same number of stickers to each friend. She's not sure if she needs 4 bags or 6 bags of stickers. How many stickers could she buy so there are no stickers left over?

Think you can solve that in 10 seconds? Go for it!

 

[the_recruit]

CC is supposed to be a culmination of decades of attempts at educational reform. After all that time they could at least be able to provide the questions, all of the questions, with damn near perfect clarity.

No, I wouldn't think that at all. Sometimes people word questions incorrectly or poorly. It simply happens. Its known as a "mistake". Teachers/authors of math problems occasionally make such mistakes. And it has nothing to do with CC or lack thereof.

 

[USViking]

It's a math class, not a business class. The kids have plenty of experience with those questions and they know what "makes" means.

So it has not even occurred to you to introduce your students to a little bit, just a little teeny bit of fundamental, very fundamental business terminology? It is a sad commentary on the educational profession that it not only lets substandard technical language go uncorrected, but apparently encourages its use. Hopefully that's something they plan to work in Common Core Part 2 (assuming there are any survivors after Part 1).

No, since apples bought is 2 greater than apples sold (the problem states this clearly), the equation is adequate.

If the problem states that clearly then the +2 should be added to the bracketed rest of the equation.

However, the_recruits equation is the best so far offered.

 

[USViking]

No, I wouldn't think that at all. Sometimes people word questions incorrectly or poorly. It simply happens. Its known as a "mistake". Teachers/authors of math problems occasionally make such mistakes. And it has nothing to do with CC or lack thereof.

Given that CC is meant to be a culmination (I am quite confident its authors and sponsors would agree wholehearted with that) then near-perfection in test question clarity should be fully expected, provided the CC authors and sponsors are on board with the principles of Continuous Improvement, Quality Assurance, and Quality Control.

 

[Jerry]

....in 3 or 4 easy steps!



Now maybe this is a dumb question but if the kid knows how to "deconstruct" the number 6 don't they already know the principle of addition? Don't they have to know the principle to figure out that 9+1 equals 10?

I think this is easier:

 

[Jerry]

I do not know enough about the earlier standards to comment on that aspect. You are?

The problem I have with the question cited is that it is incoherent. Think about it some more.

The problem I always had in school with these kinds of questions, is I just can't bring myself to give a **** about Donna and her stupid apples. Why do I need to know how many apples she originally bought? Who am I in this story that Donna buying apples is any of my business to begin with? And even if I should know, did Donna lose her receipt?

If you're going to dress up the math as a story then make it relatable to the life of a middle schooler in America. Otherwise just give me the math neat.

 

[Jerry]

CCSS Math Question
Donna buys some apples at 35 cents each. She eats 2 apples and sells the rest for 45 cents each. She makes $4.40. How many apples did she buy?

Anyone else have a comment before I discuss?

I keep coming up with a fraction of an apple so I don't know the answer, assuming Donna didn't buy a slightly used apple to begin with. On a multiple choice test I'm looking for the option to answer '12 apples' and get a good mark even-though I clearly got it wrong.

$4.40 total made /$0.45ea = 9.8 apples sold + 2 apples eaten = 11.8 apples originally bought.
Check the work: 11.8apples * $.35ea = $4.13 originally paid. 9.8appleas sold * $.45ea = $4.41 made. $4.41-$4.13 initial investment = $0.28 profit. Donna would have had to complete this entire transaction in 2-3 minutes in order to achieve Federal Minimum wage. Donna should just get a job.

 

[USViking]

The problem I always had in school with these kinds of questions, is I just can't bring myself to give a **** about Donna and her stupid apples. Why do I need to know how many apples she originally bought? Who am I in this story that Donna buying apples is any of my business to begin with? And even if I should know, did Donna lose her receipt?

If you're going to dress up the math as a story then make it relatable to the life of a middle schooler in America. Otherwise just give me the math neat.

You took the same approach I did to begin with.

I now think it is at least as reasonable to interpret "makes $4.40" as "makes $4.40 profit".

Another member, a teacher, apparently thinks introducing the actual word "profit" would be more than a middle school student could be expected to handle.

 

[Jerry]

You took the same approach I did to begin with.

I now think it is at least as reasonable to interpret "makes $4.40" as "makes $4.40 profit".

Another member, a teacher, apparently thinks introducing the actual word "profit" would be more than a middle school student could be expected to handle.

I actually stopped and re-read the problem to see if the $4.40 was profit or total made. The problem didn't say the $4.40 was profit, only that's how much Donna made from selling the few apples her fat ass didn't eat.

This is when the teacher would have told me I was wrong, I would have argued, she would have tried to drop it, I would not have dropped it, the teacher would have put my name on the board, I would have walked up and erased my name then demanded the test was wrong, I get sent to the principal's office, walk off campus and go home instead, dad shows up after being called by the school, takes me back to school, I get detention for leaving campus, skip detention, got suspended for 2 days, stepmother takes power-cord from Nintendo to Work so I can't play, I walk to the mall and use saved money to buy new power cord, play Nintendo, stepmother comes home early and sees me playing, #drama, dad comes home late & stepmother wants something don to me, dad doesn't care if I play Nintendo while home, dad says "if you can buy a power cord at the mall then you can buy groceries so I'm leaving you the list (that my stepmother made for him) and some money be sure to keep the receipt", stepmother "you always take their side" and storms off, dad sleeps on couch....this kind of drama is why sister runs away at 16 and other sister never comes over on her visitation days...principal who suspended me is a woman, teacher who sent me home is also a woman, sisters who never see me are women, bitchy stepmother is a woman, mom who works through visitation wekends is a woman.....I notice a trend....begin deep seeded distrust of women...etc...but a teacher is worried that as a middle school student I can't handle the word "profit" in a math problem.

True story.

 

[sangha]

CC is supposed to be a culmination of decades of attempts at educational reform. After all that time they could at least be able to provide the questions, all of the questions, with damn near perfect clarity.

CC doesn't provide any questions. It is merely a framework for setting standards a curriculum should follow

CC Sample Questions

(Question 15, Page 4 of link):
Juanita wants to give bags of stickers to her friends. She wants to give the same number of stickers to each friend. She's not sure if she needs 4 bags or 6 bags of stickers. How many stickers could she buy so there are no stickers left over?

Think you can solve that in 10 seconds? Go for it!

Why are you linking to some random blog?