How the Trump Administration Inflicts Misery on the Iranian People

[Mason66]

Oh, I am sure we could figure out what they owed us out of that... for one thing we should have backed out of that money that which the US taxpayers had to pay to hostages, American hostages, held in violation of International law the compensation when they were awarded damages by the court. Then the families of those of our soldiers killed by IEDs planted by Iraqi insurgents and supplied by the Iranian regime...

https://www.newsweek.com/iran-nucle...s-families-stephen-flatow-barack-obama-418770

After that, well, you know smart governments don't give money, hand over hundreds of billions to the Number One State Sponsor of Terrorists [ even if slenderfella could not pronounce the word]...yano?

Yes, I taught US History for years, so am quite familiar with the Spanish American War and its aftermaths in PR, Cuba and the Phillippines. We librated Cuba et al from the Spanish... and so we got privileges for a while. No real harm done as those things go...and we later gave them total independence, with a few minor exceptions like Guantanamo.

Yeah, no offense to your Cuban pal, but I do not see what America deserved that we got in Cuba. I think we covered this before, but am not reading fiction to get to the truth, sorry. What was the gist of what we, the US, did and what we deserved from his vantage point?

Fidel was not an improvement, no true socialist/communist ever is...and what he saddled his own country with was downright traitorous... plus near disastrous in worldwide consequences.

I don'0t see why the fact that the money was supposedly theirs matters at all.

Iran will still use it against the US in a variety of ways.

 

[sangha]

What is this "Federal Bureau of Matters"? I've never heard of it before.

It is a joke that at least one right wing buffoon thinks is real

The bigger question is why debate with anyone who demonstrates they are not worth the time by believing in the Uranium One delusion?

 

[ElChupacabra]

The Shah was a beacon of light, progress and good government compared with anyone who ruled Iran either before or since. (I lived in Tehran from 1967 to 1969 and know whereof I speak).

The only first hand perspective I've gotten is from my good friend's mother who left Iran before the revolution because she felt repressed and unable to publicly criticize anything out of fear of the Savak. No government is perfect, and I think comparatively the Shah's pro western and secular government is preferable to an Islamic fundamentalist one, but ultimately it's up to the people of Iran to choose the government they want and not a foreign power dictating what that choice should be.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Sources vary by the year like all internationally traded commodities but what stays the same the tiny amount that U1 produces. What is 20% of 7%?

Using what I remember from Grade 5 arithmetic, I'll take a wild stab and guess that it's someplace around 1.4%.

BTW the Kazakhstan uranium production is controlled by Russia too

Indeed it is, and a large percent of that Uranium is coming from the Khazak mining concessions that Rusatom obtained when it purchased Uranium One from its Canadian owners.

If the Canadian owners had been willing to retain ownership of the US assets, then the US government wouldn't have had the slightest interest in the sale - nor the legal authority to interfere with it in any way.

Rusatom did NOT want the US assets - which is why it sold them off to American purchasers as soon as practicable.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Part 1


Bro, I request sources not to have you look it up, I am supposing you already did so...no, its for you to prove to us where you get/got such unadulterated crap... So, sources?

Sorry, the rules of the game that you play by don't require anyone to provide sources just because someone asks for them.

You made the rules, I'll play by them.

There certainly was some ****ing Uranium, my source indicated just how much in yellowcake form was shipped off to points unknown in Europe for ****sake. Marshall the facts man.

You are pulling **** [and there seems ample suppy] outta your ***. Show me, with your sources, where you are getting all this information on the motives of Russians within Rosatom? Were you a principle in this transaction yourself?

You stated that "Uranium One did not have a permit to EXPORT even a gram of Uranium to Russia?" like it was supposed to mean something...important? What was your point then? I proved that they didn't have to smuggle it, just do a lot of shifting between company and national labels, three card Monty style, at least under a misadministration like slenderfella helping out a fat lady... and shaaaazammmm, you get yellowcake off to who knows where. How truly naive does one want to express oneself so openly?

If you weren't saying that, what exactly were you trying to convey then?

Again, see how much was shipped off, as sourced previously "7,500,000 kilograms to 12,000,000 kilograms and added Uranium One to the “other parties to Export.”

I see that you think that "Ontario" is a part of Russia since your article lists the destination of the exported ore as a "plant in Ontario from 7,500,000 kilograms to 12,000,000 kilograms".

Not only that, but you appear to believe that an entity that is "a party to" is the only entity involved.

Your slavish devotion to insane conspiracy theories does get worrying.

Only in small quantities? Is over 12 million kgs/26 million pounds a small quantity to you? Try hiding that in your pocket.

Yep, and all exported to -

wait for it -

drum roll -

trumpet flourish -

fireworks display -

Canada - which, as everyone knows is a part of Russia.

Yes, after it got out of our control, almost anything was possible... which is EXACTLY why the corrupt slenderfella misadmin should never have sold off this national security asset to our enemies.

Combining insane conspiracy theories with shrill invective doesn't make them any saner.

Yup, while pretty broad brush in that flip description, pretty much... I mean it was silly to include the fat lady actually ever doing anything approaching manual labor, but to imply that I stated she personally delivered the U to Russia was rather juvenile... being proven wrong over and over in every instance... getting under the skin I suppose, eh? It was a quid pro quo, bro...look it up.

It's time for you to take a reality break.

Did you know that it would be "possible" for Donald Trump to ship 100% of America's Uranium off to Russia if he disguised it as red ties and first exported it to Zambia?

The hell it didn't happen. Get a clue.

Paranoid wacko conspiracy theories are even funnier.

No, where did you ever see me denying you were denying it. Reread it, I said you were again confirming the fact. This was also confirming the fact that the original poster, from whom you took the completely in the dark baton, did not have any idea what he was talking about...and you confirmed that. Wake up wake up.

I repeat

Why you would believe that assets owned by a non-American company in a country other than the United States of America even remotely qualify as "American national security assets" is beyond me - unless, of course, I were to believe that you were totally ignorant of both fact and law at the same time as you felt compelled to spout tripe.

I choose to remain mystified.
​

But you are making it REALLY difficult.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Question...


A question that cannot be answered but...they don't.

Missed the connection between "The American Conservative" and "right-wing" - didn't you?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

It is a joke that at least one right wing buffoon thinks is real

The bigger question is why debate with anyone who demonstrates they are not worth the time by believing in the Uranium One delusion?

Because it's more fun than cleaning my cat's anal glands?

I do find it intriguing that a Canadian could know at least four years before Ms. Clinton because the US Secretary of State that she would do so and then "pay her a bribe" to do something that she had absolutely no power to do when "bribed". That's almost on the same scale as the amusement that I get when someone thinks that Canada is a part of Russia so that any Uranium ore exported to Canada automatically goes to Russia.

On the other hand, some days I just like to jerk chains.

 

[Nickyjo]

Cuba is ripe for deep internal change. Everyone there knows that socialism -- that is, state ownership of the economy -- doesn't work. The economic embargo on Cuba is the only excuse the hardliners have for the dire state of the Cuban economy, and it's wearing thin. Fear of American armed hostility is their main excuse for political repression. And the hardliners, or some of them, are not stupid. When Obama recognized Cuba and things began to thaw, there were plenty of warnings from hardliners about the dangers that this represented to Cuban socialism.

It's hard for outsiders to understand how a country can change from within, without a violent revolution. But it does happen -- in fact, it happens more often this way than through violent revolutions. The hardliners become more and more isolated -- their children become 'liberals', more and more of the people who run things in society -- the educated middle class -- become discontented ... and slowly a consensus grows that things need to change.

It's different for each country, but it would be useful to study how Franco's Spain -- a one party, near-Fascist dictatorship -- made a peaceful transition to democracy. Likewise the Greece of the Colonels, many many Latin American countries, South Africa, Taiwan, South Korea ... and, the prize of them all, the Soviet Union. I believe you will find that in every case there was a slow, invisible, molecular shift of opinion -- and that this was reflected also among the men with the guns. They realize that they can change, must change, and this will not mean that they lose their heads or even their jobs.

Socialism doesn't work, with or without a trade embargo. In fact, the US could send a billion dollars worth of foreign aid to Cuba every year and their socialism still wouldn't work. And everyone there knows that.

We should resume normal trade relations with them, flood them with American tourists and entrepreneurs looking to make a deal to turn Cuba's abundant natural resources into sources of wealth for both Cubans and Americans. We ought to offer scholarships to Cuban teenagers to come spend a year in the US to perfect their English. The only reason we don't is the pernicious influence of the Cuban exile lobby.

I agree with you on how to promote change in Cuba. But there is socialism, and there is socialism as Cuba sees it... successful countries mix in a lot of the former and less of the latter.

 

[Nickyjo]

Oh, I am sure we could figure out what they owed us out of that... for one thing we should have backed out of that money that which the US taxpayers had to pay to hostages, American hostages, held in violation of International law the compensation when they were awarded damages by the court. Then the families of those of our soldiers killed by IEDs planted by Iraqi insurgents and supplied by the Iranian regime...

https://www.newsweek.com/iran-nucle...s-families-stephen-flatow-barack-obama-418770

After that, well, you know smart governments don't give money, hand over hundreds of billions to the Number One State Sponsor of Terrorists [ even if slenderfella could not pronounce the word]...yano?

Yes, I taught US History for years, so am quite familiar with the Spanish American War and its aftermaths in PR, Cuba and the Phillippines. We librated Cuba et al from the Spanish... and so we got privileges for a while. No real harm done as those things go...and we later gave them total independence, with a few minor exceptions like Guantanamo.

Yeah, no offense to your Cuban pal, but I do not see what America deserved that we got in Cuba. I think we covered this before, but am not reading fiction to get to the truth, sorry. What was the gist of what we, the US, did and what we deserved from his vantage point?

Fidel was not an improvement, no true socialist/communist ever is...and what he saddled his own country with was downright traitorous... plus near disastrous in worldwide consequences.

We could balance the hostages, the money owed against 25+ years of the Shah and SAVAK. The deal as I understand it was, they come to the table and negotiate, we free up their assets.

As to Cuba, and Spain. The Platt Amendment lasted til 1930 something. (The colonization of the Philippines til 1946.) So much for our ant-Spanish empire posture. Despite our marvelous freedom at home, our international moves roughly corresponded with the other big empire, the Soviets’: Cuba, the DR, Vietnam, Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua match Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan nicely. Except, of course, our intentions were noble. FDR’s quote about Somoza is apt about empires with pretences that they are better than, say, the Romans: “He’s a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.”

 

[iguanaman]

Tell that to our government [not the corrupt ones, however], they seem to think slightly differently than do you about our Uranium.

Additionally, we want to keep it out of the hands of our enemies, yano? Nope, you are wrong about everything including this. See article by former Energy Secy Spenser Abraham.



https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...rity-nuclear-energy-russia-column/1344801002/

Bro, you are the one agreeing with the sale, assisting Putin in obtaining our national security assets... so check your own allegiance... mine is as an American patriot, through and through. The hidden and corrupt sale of such assets to our enemies is traitorous, condoning it and trying to hide the facts would be similarly unAmerican.

So tell us, where do you actually stand. With us, the patriotic Americans... or with your pals slenderfella, the fat lady and Putin... eh?

Your support of the traitor Trump shows you have more allegiance to Putin than the U.S. Trump does Putin's bidding at every turn and you support it. Everything from weakening our alliances, to gutting our Sate Dept., siding with Putin over our own intelligence sources and now abandoning Syria to Iran and Putin is because Trump is compromised by the Russians And I was right, you do blame Obama for our mines running out of uranium ore. You do know that is why production is down. Uranium is a finite resource and we have mined it nearly all out.

 

[iguanaman]

Because it's more fun than cleaning my cat's anal glands?

I do find it intriguing that a Canadian could know at least four years before Ms. Clinton because the US Secretary of State that she would do so and then "pay her a bribe" to do something that she had absolutely no power to do when "bribed". That's almost on the same scale as the amusement that I get when someone thinks that Canada is a part of Russia so that any Uranium ore exported to Canada automatically goes to Russia.

On the other hand, some days I just like to jerk chains.

So true. And then they brush off the negotiating of Trump Tower Moscow while Trump was campaigning and lying about any ties to Putin. The mental acrobatics they perform boggles the mind.

 

[sangha]

Because it's more fun than cleaning my cat's anal glands?

Thats a tough call.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Sorry, the rules of the game that you play by don't require anyone to provide sources just because someone asks for them.

You made the rules, I'll play by them.



I see that you think that "Ontario" is a part of Russia since your article lists the destination of the exported ore as a "plant in Ontario from 7,500,000 kilograms to 12,000,000 kilograms".

Not only that, but you appear to believe that an entity that is "a party to" is the only entity involved.

Your slavish devotion to insane conspiracy theories does get worrying.



Yep, and all exported to -

wait for it -

drum roll -

trumpet flourish -

fireworks display -

Canada - which, as everyone knows is a part of Russia.



Combining insane conspiracy theories with shrill invective doesn't make them any saner.



It's time for you to take a reality break.

Did you know that it would be "possible" for Donald Trump to ship 100% of America's Uranium off to Russia if he disguised it as red ties and first exported it to Zambia?



Paranoid wacko conspiracy theories are even funnier.



I repeat

Why you would believe that assets owned by a non-American company in a country other than the United States of America even remotely qualify as "American national security assets" is beyond me - unless, of course, I were to believe that you were totally ignorant of both fact and law at the same time as you felt compelled to spout tripe.

I choose to remain mystified.
​

But you are making it REALLY difficult.

So you say **** that you, nor I, can corroborate and will not provide your source. Your whole argument is based on all that bull**** story line along with the other tag along bull**** that you keep spreading deep and wide.

If you cannot provide your sources so I can read, try to make heads or tails out what the hell you are even talking about [ you make no real sense, its not at all how the story actually developed nor proceeded ] then you are just fake news making it up as you go along, wasting my and everyone else's time.

Buh bye.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

We could balance the hostages, the money owed against 25+ years of the Shah and SAVAK. The deal as I understand it was, they come to the table and negotiate, we free up their assets.

As to Cuba, and Spain. The Platt Amendment lasted til 1930 something. (The colonization of the Philippines til 1946.) So much for our ant-Spanish empire posture. Despite our marvelous freedom at home, our international moves roughly corresponded with the other big empire, the Soviets’: Cuba, the DR, Vietnam, Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua match Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan nicely. Except, of course, our intentions were noble. FDR’s quote about Somoza is apt about empires with pretences that they are better than, say, the Romans: “He’s a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.”

Yeah yeah yeah, but that the world were perfect and we could draw lines that distinct.

But the world isnt and we aren't that able... and at that time we certainly weren't as we were in the midst of an all out death struggle with communism after we had just defeated Fascism together and we had defeated the Imperialists of Japan without their assistance.

We, our imperfect leaders, made decisions, some faulty some good, that were deemed in our best interests and for the free world, as did the Shah for himself and his country. Mossaddegh was no devine angel, the Middle East is a very tough region in which to rule, power games went on before and after any US involvement in that sector of the world.

As regards Cuba and all the acoutrement that you attached, I judge it a fairly shallow interpretation and comparison of the US v Soviet spheres of influence. But I will be the first to admit, we are not perfect, of that there is no doubt. There are sons of bitches all over the world, some a lot worse than others. To whit, there simply is no comparison to the amount of destruction, misery and death that occurred in our Western Hemisphere under the nominal dominance/influence/protection by the US versus the Eastern Hemisphere during the same time period with their various socialists/communists/imperialists.

We can all complain and wish for a perfect world... our hemisphere under our leadership has been much more humanitarian, productive with a far higher degree of self determination than... over there.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Your support of the traitor Trump shows you have more allegiance to Putin than the U.S. Trump does Putin's bidding at every turn and you support it. Everything from weakening our alliances, to gutting our Sate Dept., siding with Putin over our own intelligence sources and now abandoning Syria to Iran and Putin is because Trump is compromised by the Russians And I was right, you do blame Obama for our mines running out of uranium ore. You do know that is why production is down. Uranium is a finite resource and we have mined it nearly all out.

Don't be silly.

Like oil, the Earth is constantly producing Uranium and the supply will never run out.

[At least that's the type of logic that some of Mr. Trump's ardent admirers use.]

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

So true. And then they brush off the negotiating of Trump Tower Moscow while Trump was campaigning and lying about any ties to Putin. The mental acrobatics they perform boggles the mind.

I believe that the "logic" is that Mr. Trump shouldn't be persecuted because He got caught before He could succeed. On the other hand, they also seem to believe that Ms. Clinton should be locked up even though the seven (or was it nine) Republican led investigations couldn't turn up any evidence against her because they WOULD have done it if they were her and that proves that she did it.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Thats a tough call.

Yeah, but I'm a big guy and can make them.

Sometimes I'm even right.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

So you say **** that you, nor I, can corroborate and will not provide your source. Your whole argument is based on all that bull**** story line along with the other tag along bull**** that you keep spreading deep and wide.

If you cannot provide your sources so I can read, try to make heads or tails out what the hell you are even talking about [ you make no real sense, its not at all how the story actually developed nor proceeded ] then you are just fake news making it up as you go along, wasting my and everyone else's time.

Buh bye.

Did you know that Uranium One only owned the "rights to extract" Uranium and that the major portion of the business of its American assets was the refining and concentration of Uranium ore that other (American) companies extracted?

Probably not.

Did you know that "exported to Canada" does not mean the same thing as "shipped to Russia"?

Obviously not.

Did you know that "amongst the exporters" does not mean the same thing as "was the only exporter"?

Obviously not.

I don't see why I should waste my time providing you with references that you are either to bungling or to ignorant to find for yourself - especially when you will ignore them since they aren't either FOX News or Breitbart or InfoWars.

Did you know that (at least) 75% of the Uranium that you say (in effect) "there is no reason to believe was not smuggled off to Russia" was re-exported back to the US after processing?

Obviously not.

Did you know that Uranium One currently mines ZERO Uranium in the United States of America?

Obviously not.

Did you know that the amount of extraction rights that Uranium One had in the United States of America amounted to approximately 0.2% of the entire world's Uranium reserves?

Obviously not.

Are you capable of thinking logically?

Obviously ...

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Your support of the traitor Trump shows you have more allegiance to Putin than the U.S. Trump does Putin's bidding at every turn and you support it. Everything from weakening our alliances, to gutting our Sate Dept., siding with Putin over our own intelligence sources and now abandoning Syria to Iran and Putin is because Trump is compromised by the Russians And I was right, you do blame Obama for our mines running out of uranium ore. You do know that is why production is down. Uranium is a finite resource and we have mined it nearly all out.

Bro, you are the walking talking points guy apparently... but you forgot your seeing eye walking stick and dog.

You ignore the obvious and then make childish noises about an elected president doing what is necessary to clean up various departments under the executive branch and HIS control. If making fair trade deals with allies and enemies alike is weakening our alliances, then those alliances were ONLY good if on the American taxpayer and consumers backs.

That time is in the past, the free ride is over. Just as it should be.

You don't care about America, you were willing to twice put in an empty suit socialist with no idea what he was doing... but he "talks good". That wasn't even true. He hollowed out our military, underfunding it in times of the critical need with the real rise of predators worldwide, just kicking the can down the road, the loser. Slenderfella further tried social engineering our strong military into weakness from the bottom, culling the good middle level commander above. Hell, the dumb*** pledged to manage our "inevitable decline" [ the ****ing loser] and was managing our economy into the dust while dividing us into warring groups instead of unifying us as all Americans...

I can go on but it makes me sick with disgust, discussing the continuing ****er. Get the hell off the stage, slenderfella, your time has come and gone. You did nothing, Yes, I am talking to you Mr. former president, nothing good for our country and now, with all these problems you created, the many others you exacerbated, then going around trash talking... not to mention spying on an opposing candidates campaign, subverting an elected president.

Got no respect for the... I won't call him a man... got no respect for that demon in human form. So take your naive views of Trump back to your liberal strongholds, where they will no doubt applaud.

Don't forget your stick... wouldn't want you tripping all over all your bull ****. Yano?


Btw, we don't have a Sate Dept.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Did you know that Uranium One only owned the "rights to extract" Uranium and that the major portion of the business of its American assets was the refining and concentration of Uranium ore that other (American) companies extracted?

Probably not.

Did you know that "exported to Canada" does not mean the same thing as "shipped to Russia"?

Obviously not.

Did you know that "amongst the exporters" does not mean the same thing as "was the only exporter"?

Obviously not.

I don't see why I should waste my time providing you with references that you are either to bungling or to ignorant to find for yourself - especially when you will ignore them since they aren't either FOX News or Breitbart or InfoWars.

Did you know that (at least) 75% of the Uranium that you say (in effect) "there is no reason to believe was not smuggled off to Russia" was re-exported back to the US after processing?

Obviously not.

Did you know that Uranium One currently mines ZERO Uranium in the United States of America?

Obviously not.

Did you know that the amount of extraction rights that Uranium One had in the United States of America amounted to approximately 0.2% of the entire world's Uranium reserves?

Obviously not.

Are you capable of thinking logically?

Obviously ...

Bro bro bro...

Go away, you had your shot at being credible, I am no longer willing to look at your piles of garbage, your too late too stupid, not germane in any event, "did you knows".

And learn the difference between to and too, damned annoying.

You know, sounds like posts from someone working for the Russians, you seem so determined to make them appear, without ANY sourcing, innocent of all wrongdoings... and yet we know they were giving bribes, kickbacks, money laundering...which one doesn't do innocently... you never explain any of that... but you somehow say you know the U1 player's inner motivations... but also cannot give the details of how you would know that.

So, say hello to Frank Giustra or Ian Telfer or Vadim Mikerin or Vlad and gang if you, you know, just happen to run into them.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

I don'0t see why the fact that the money was supposedly theirs matters at all.

Iran will still use it against the US in a variety of ways.

Totally agree, just funds their continued terrorism worldwide and props up an evil government. What sane leader would do that? More properly asked it might be, which Hussein leader would do that... and why?

 

[Nickyjo]

Yeah yeah yeah, but that the world were perfect and we could draw lines that distinct.

But the world isnt and we aren't that able... and at that time we certainly weren't as we were in the midst of an all out death struggle with communism after we had just defeated Fascism together and we had defeated the Imperialists of Japan without their assistance.

We, our imperfect leaders, made decisions, some faulty some good, that were deemed in our best interests and for the free world, as did the Shah for himself and his country. Mossaddegh was no devine angel, the Middle East is a very tough region in which to rule, power games went on before and after any US involvement in that sector of the world.

As regards Cuba and all the acoutrement that you attached, I judge it a fairly shallow interpretation and comparison of the US v Soviet spheres of influence. But I will be the first to admit, we are not perfect, of that there is no doubt. There are sons of bitches all over the world, some a lot worse than others. To whit, there simply is no comparison to the amount of destruction, misery and death that occurred in our Western Hemisphere under the nominal dominance/influence/protection by the US versus the Eastern Hemisphere during the same time period with their various socialists/communists/imperialists.

We can all complain and wish for a perfect world... our hemisphere under our leadership has been much more humanitarian, productive with a far higher degree of self determination than... over there.

You would probably get an argument from anyone in the western hemisphere who worked on labor issues or for democracy: 40 thou dead in El Salvador, 80k-(200k?) in Guatemala, 15-40k in Argentina. There was no Cold War need, none, to support those murderuos governments. Our policies probably created more communists in Latin America than our allies there managed to kill, since our allied governments killed so women and children. One example: in Argentina, if they kidnapped a pregnant suspected leftist, they would wait til she gave birth, then kill her, give her kid to a military family. (Cf. the film, “The Official Story”). So she goes into labor knowing she will die once she gives birth. I met professionally with some of the mothers of these women, who tried to trace the chidren. They showed more mercy than was shown them, not trying to remove kids who seemed happy in their situation.

The difference between what we did in Latin America and what the Soviets did in Eastern Europe was like the difference between horse **** and dog ****. Carter tried to rectify this and is still reviled by the right wing for it, tho I believe that his approach hastened the collapse of the Soviet empire a much as anything Reagan did. Some Latin American commentators were shocked that a US president would take an even handed approach to human rights. They distrusted his idealism, cynically chalking it up to the US need to recover some moral reputation after Vietnam. Reagan resolved that bit of deviant behavior, proudly invading serious threats to our existence like Grenada. And praising murderous dictators like Rios Montt in Guatemala.

Strangely, the Soviet dissidents and seemed to be able to make common cause with those who dissented from right-wing governments, with both parties seeing things clearer than our paranoid leadership. Yes, the world is not perfect. But our government managed to make parts of it worse.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

You would probably get an argument from anyone in the western hemisphere who worked on labor issues or for democracy: 40 thou dead in El Salvador, 80k-(200k?) in Guatemala, 15-40k in Argentina. There was no Cold War need, none, to support those murderuos governments. Our policies probably created more communists in Latin America than our allies there managed to kill, since our allied governments killed so women and children. One example: in Argentina, if they kidnapped a pregnant suspected leftist, they would wait til she gave birth, then kill her, give her kid to a military family. (Cf. the film, “The Official Story”). So she goes into labor knowing she will die once she gives birth. I met professionally with some of the mothers of these women, who tried to trace the chidren. They showed more mercy than was shown them, not trying to remove kids who seemed happy in their situation.

The difference between what we did in Latin America and what the Soviets did in Eastern Europe was like the difference between horse **** and dog ****. Carter tried to rectify this and is still reviled by the right wing for it, tho I believe that his approach hastened the collapse of the Soviet empire a much as anything Reagan did. Some Latin American commentators were shocked that a US president would take an even handed approach to human rights. They distrusted his idealism, cynically chalking it up to the US need to recover some moral reputation after Vietnam. Reagan resolved that bit of deviant behavior, proudly invading serious threats to our existence like Grenada. And praising murderous dictators like Rios Montt in Guatemala.

Strangely, the Soviet dissidents and seemed to be able to make common cause with those who dissented from right-wing governments, with both parties seeing things clearer than our paranoid leadership. Yes, the world is not perfect. But our government managed to make parts of it worse.

Well, I kid you not...until you brought it up, I simply had no idea the stark, hugely vast difference between horse **** and dog ****.

Yano?

As I clearly stated, we were not perfect, just under our strong influence and protection, much much much much less misery, death and destruction.

K vs M... again, Yano?

The numbers vary as, with the exception of the Nazis, not much methodical record keeping on the evils they were perpetrating done by the perps themselves.

National Socialists/fascists of Germany murder in concentration and POW death camps upwards of 12M [12 million], not to mention the super destructive war they and the Fascist Italians and Imperialist Japanese started in which upwards of 60M died... those numbers in and of themselves dwarf all your numbers put together... but hold on now, as Karen Carpenter might sing...

We have only just begun.

We also have Pol Pot with his Cambodian Killing Fields 1.7-2.5 M. Then you have Joe Stalin, we won't even add the communist leaders before and after him in the USSR, only to be outdone by Mao in the PRC upwards of 77M. Those numbers just account for those particular leaders. There was evil done before, for instance, Lenin, Brezhnev et a after in the USSR.

And that doesn't even cover the lists of others, nor does it take into consideration the destruction or misery to others who might have lived but were tortured, maimed, harmed psychologically.

The US singlehandedly kept WWII and the mass million range killings of the communists to over there, pretty much kept the misery, death and destruction from ever laying a finger on this hemisphere. Before that the Monroe Doctrine, along with the Roosevelt Corollary behind and emphasizing it, kept many of these destructive nations from establishing beachheads on the hemisphere after we felt strong enough to declare it to the rest of the world.

Here are several sources that overlap, but peruse them and see it the horse and dog excrement are even close to the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

Top Ten Most Evil Dictators of All Time (in order of kill count) – Popten

https://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...mass-murderer-his-due/?utm_term=.0d7cb9b3b7b0

 

[PoS]

Right, but the Shah was there because of US (and British) meddling and proved to be a brutal dictator backed by the US From that point anti US sentiment grew and allowed for the fundamentalists to grab hold. The thing to remember too is Iranians may love American culture, but have very mixed views (and distrust) of US policy. No matter which way you try to paint it, mistrust for the US is based on pretty clear reasons since the Shah was put in to power in order to prevent Iranians to be in control of their own natural resources. Pushes for regime change now will likely be viewed in the very same light.

Yup, let's not forget that the Shah came into power after the CIA backed a coup to overthrow Iran's democratically elected government led by Mossadegh. So this whole mess started because of US and Western European meddling since the very beginning, and is the reason why the Iranians hate us so much.

 

[MrShangles]

On the bright side, our Toddler-in-Chief is giving them Syria as compensation

Do we own Syria? Are we the world police? Where’s the UN? Why can’t syria fight for themselves? Would they come to our support if we needed it?


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