How should teachers be evaluated?

[Boo Radley]

I bring it up because A) i suspect it is significant and B) i did not see it mentioned in either paper. can you cite the relevant portion for me where they break out what percentage of teachers leaving the workforce coincides with having children or getting married?

I see nothing that shows it to be significant, but if you can avoid questionable sources, I'd gladly look at them.

I think I linked the wrong oen for you, but I'll look agian later. My bad.

not at all. if you are going to hold someone responsible for their results, you need to ensure that you give them the maximum capacity to be responsible for their results.

That's an assumption not supported by any facts. It may make sense to you, but without it being given in the first place, it doesn't exist.

 

[cpwill]

I see nothing that shows it to be significant, but if you can avoid questionable sources, I'd gladly look at them.

I think I linked the wrong oen for you, but I'll look agian later. My bad.

let me know.

That's an assumption not supported by any facts. It may make sense to you, but without it being given in the first place, it doesn't exist.

Interesting. So it is your argument that if we give teachers more power in the classroom, that will not effect their ability to control or direct it?

 

[Boo Radley]

Interesting. So it is your argument that if we give teachers more power in the classroom, that will not effect their ability to control or direct it?

Don't be silly. I said nothing of the kind. I said they won't give that power. If they were going to, they would have ready. You said if we had merit pay, why would get the power. I said that's a leap.

 

[cpwill]

Don't be silly. I said nothing of the kind. I said they won't give that power. If they were going to, they would have ready. You said if we had merit pay, why would get the power. I said that's a leap.

No, I said if we do merit pay then we need to increase their power. Not that administrators would.

 

[radcen]

Evaluations should be done by peers.

They should not be based on student test scores. That is very unfair to teachers saddled with classes of morons and sociopaths. (Don't give me any flack about this, you know they exist.)

They should not be based on parent responses to questionnaires. That is very unfair to teachers saddled with classes whose parents are morons and sociopaths.

They should be based on set objective standards agreed upon in advance.

...which would be...?

 

[Pinkie]

I completely disagree with you. If a teacher is getting lots of answers that indicate the students' parents think they're being assigned too much homework, then I think the teacher needs to look at how much homework he/she is assigning. The one person that shouldn't be able to assign a certain amount of homework when it's not pre-defined? That would be the teacher. Why is it that teachers are so reluctant to accept critiques of their work? (You. By an indication that parents/students don't know what they're talking about.) Teachers are not omniscient.

I disagree with you, Mags. Speaking only for myself, as I have said I really don't know what makes a teacher successful -- but I expect the administration to know. I see a role for parents, of course, but it should be in supporting the teacher, not supervising that person. What would give 60 adults with a variety of backgrounds the skills to supervise a teacher? Who could function in an environment where they have 60+ volunteer supervisors?

I also think those that have commented that parents are defensive, contentious and disrespectful are 100% correct. I had a few problems with my kid's teachers, but in a million years I wouldn't have gone in to face off with them over a grade.

How is your kid going to learn if you undercut the teacher's authority at home?

 

[justabubba]

first, eliminate tenure
second, the teacher evaluations are to be performed by master teachers - not principals/administrators
the school system must allocate adequate time and financial resources to adequately allow consistent and reliable evaluations to result
teachers with a history of high evaluations will be screened the least. those who are new to teaching or whose recent evaluations indicate the teacher is at less than full proficiency must be evaluated the most
administrators should add to the evaluation but only in terms of non-critical elements, such as timeliness, cooperativeness, responsiveness and flexibility. this evaluation should measure and provide feedback to the teachers how they are perceived by administration but that score cannot be used to determine retention
there must be a system of appeal, which allows the teacher to seek and participate in a review of their performance rating. the panel that reviews and decides on appeals must include representation from teachers
there should be an ongoing dialogue between the teachers' representatives and management to assess how well the appraisal system is measuring teacher performance; there must be a system in place to authorize needed changes as they are found to be needed
cameras with audio should be in place in all class rooms so that the teacher is not aware they are being observed. that infrastructure will also save in the time and expense of the evaluating teachers having to travel to the school sites across the district. it should also facilitate the ability to have as evaluators teachers who are familiar with the subject material of the teacher they are evaluating
where teaching problems are identified, they must be addressed immediately thereafter, in person, by the evaluator(s), and not wait until a designated performance discussion time period
for high school teachers, student evaluation of their teachers should be solicited, and that information used to assure that peer teacher evaluation is consistent with the student assessment
bonus money must be distributed based on evaluation, where a fully performing teacher receives one share of the bonus pool. a superior teacher will receive two shares of the bonus pool. and a master teacher will qualify for three shares of the pool. that teacher found to need improvement will receive zero shares of the pool but will develop with the evaluator an improvement plan. that teacher found to have been unsuccessful will be terminated and any reference given by the school system will reflect such termination based on performance

 

[Aberration]

Put video cameras in their class room and evaluate how they teach.

 

[LowDown]

yeah. amazingly, everyone deserves a raise! funny how that works.... :thinking:



yeah, like what?

For example:

Does the teacher -
1) Prepare a lesson plan.
2) Teach from the lesson plan.
3) Show up on time.
4) Finish on time.
5) Use appropriate discipline.
6) Dress according to requirements
7) Speak clearly to the class
8) Demonstrate adequate knowledge of the material
9) Not allow distractions to interfere with the lesson
etc.

 

[cpwill]

For example:

Does the teacher -
1) Prepare a lesson plan.
2) Teach from the lesson plan.
3) Show up on time.
4) Finish on time.
5) Use appropriate discipline.
6) Dress according to requirements
7) Speak clearly to the class
8) Demonstrate adequate knowledge of the material
9) Not allow distractions to interfere with the lesson
etc.

all that sort of seems like.... if they fail any one they should be fired. basic competence type stuff. like if you manage to show up correctly you're doing great?

 

[Josie]

For example:

Does the teacher -
1) Prepare a lesson plan.
2) Teach from the lesson plan.
3) Show up on time.
4) Finish on time.
5) Use appropriate discipline.
6) Dress according to requirements
7) Speak clearly to the class
8) Demonstrate adequate knowledge of the material
9) Not allow distractions to interfere with the lesson
etc.

That's just the very basics. To me, if a teacher does that - they get to keep their job. If a teacher goes above and beyond that, if her students have shown exceptional growth, if she chooses to volunteer to be on several committees and is passionate about helping the school be better - that deserves a raise.

 

[Josie]

I'm still kinda iffy on the teachers evaluating teachers. I could see how some unfair scoring might take place because the evaluating teacher doesn't want someone to score better than their bestie down the hall. I have some bad history with some veteran teachers and I certainly wouldn't want them evaluating me.

I think administrators are the best ones to evaluate teachers since they're supposed to be unbiased and fair. And just like we don't evaluate kids once a year, we shouldn't evaluate teachers once a year. It should be ongoing, observations on a constant basis (weekly), feedback given when needed.

 

[Boo Radley]

No, I said if we do merit pay then we need to increase their power. Not that administrators would.

We may, but that won't happen. Parents won't allow that.

 

[cpwill]

We may, but that won't happen. Parents won't allow that.

:shrug: then after our side defeats yours on teacher merit pay, we can join forces to fight for teacher power.

 

[Boo Radley]

:shrug: then after our side defeats yours on teacher merit pay, we can join forces to fight for teacher power.

Even if we agreed, and on that we do, parents hold the power and they always see it as the other parent's children. They never see it as something their kids should abide.

 

[radcen]

Put video cameras in their class room and evaluate how they teach.

Who would evaluate the videos, and what would the evaluation criteria be?

 

[cpwill]

Even if we agreed, and on that we do, parents hold the power and they always see it as the other parent's children. They never see it as something their kids should abide.

parents do not hold the power - else we would already have merit pay and vouchers.

 

[radcen]

all that sort of seems like.... if they fail any one they should be fired. basic competence type stuff. like if you manage to show up correctly you're doing great?

Oh, you mean a union job? :2razz:

 

[Boo Radley]

parents do not hold the power - else we would already have merit pay and vouchers.

There's you mistake. As far as what goes on at school, they hold most of the power. Even with vouchers, they see other schools, not theirs, as having the problems on the whole (not 100%). Most parents are neither republican or democrat, and hold no actionable opinion on the two issues you mention. They'll give a passing answer, but act in the context of their world. Not our political one.

 

[Slartibartfast]

individual tracking of each student, with a baseline test at the beginning of each year for each subject and the exact same test at the end of each year. This, compared to average improvement of that individual student over his or her academic career and no results counted if that student has a major life event such as their parents divorcing or their family member dying.

If that student does better than average than the teacher is evaluated well, if that student does worse than average, than that teacher is not evaluated well. All scores for all students for that class are averaged for the teacher evaluation. So if the student has an average of 50% improvement in knowledge of that subject matter and gets a 60% improvement this year, the teacher is evaluated well for that student. If the class as a whole gets a 60% improvement and the teacher achieves a 55% improvement, the teacher is evaluated to have performed poorly.

bottom 15% of teachers over a three year period are let go and net teachers tried under a jack welch sort of system. Top 15% of teachers are considered for promotions, special (money earning duties), etc.

I think this probably the only way we can isolate teacher performance from crappy parents or crappy students.

 

[radcen]

I'm still kinda iffy on the teachers evaluating teachers. I could see how some unfair scoring might take place because the evaluating teacher doesn't want someone to score better than their bestie down the hall. I have some bad history with some veteran teachers and I certainly wouldn't want them evaluating me.

I think administrators are the best ones to evaluate teachers since they're supposed to be unbiased and fair. And just like we don't evaluate kids once a year, we shouldn't evaluate teachers once a year. It should be ongoing, observations on a constant basis (weekly), feedback given when needed.

I tend to agree with this. Teachers... or any workers in any field... shouldn't be evaluated by peers within the same organization. Teachers shouldn't be evaluated by students or their parents. Students don't have the critical thinking yet developed that are needed to do it accurately, and too many parents blindly believe whatever their precious little imps tell them.

It's the job of the administrators.

 

[cpwill]

individual tracking of each student, with a baseline test at the beginning of each year for each subject and the exact same test at the end of each year. This, compared to average improvement of that individual student over his or her academic career and no results counted if that student has a major life event such as their parents divorcing or their family member dying.

If that student does better than average than the teacher is evaluated well, if that student does worse than average, than that teacher is not evaluated well. All scores for all students for that class are averaged for the teacher evaluation.

bottom 15% of teachers over a three year period are let go and net teachers tried under a jack welch sort of system. Top 15% of teachers are considered for promotions, special (money earning duties), etc.

I think this probably the only way we can isolate teacher performance from crappy parents or crappy students.

I like it with the one exception that we may want to consider a two year grace window before a teacher begins to accumulate scores. that way we are grading them as they will be teaching, rather than as they are learning to teach. otherwise we risk just constantly rotating whatever generation of teachers happens to be the noobs when we put that system into play.

 

[Josie]

I tend to agree with this. Teachers... or any workers in any field... shouldn't be evaluated by peers within the same organization. Teachers shouldn't be evaluated by students or their parents. Students don't have the critical thinking yet developed that are needed to do it accurately, and too many parents blindly believe whatever their precious little imps tell them.

It's the job of the administrators.

Ha. I just had a parent come in yesterday to complain about something her kid had told her about my class. I was like "That's so not true!" and showed her evidence to the contrary. She calmed down after that. Those crazy little imps.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I like it with the one exception that we may want to consider a two year grace window before a teacher begins to accumulate scores. that way we are grading them as they will be teaching, rather than as they are learning to teach. otherwise we risk just constantly rotating whatever generation of teachers happens to be the noobs when we put that system into play.

The other problem I am wrestling with is how to evaluate teachers of students in the first and second grade while the history is still forming for that student. That system won't work for those grades. K and pre-k, I don't care about, those grades are for teaching social skills so the student can be successful.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

individual tracking of each student, with a baseline test at the beginning of each year for each subject and the exact same test at the end of each year. This, compared to average improvement of that individual student over his or her academic career and no results counted if that student has a major life event such as their parents divorcing or their family member dying.

If that student does better than average than the teacher is evaluated well, if that student does worse than average, than that teacher is not evaluated well. All scores for all students for that class are averaged for the teacher evaluation. So if the student has an average of 50% improvement in knowledge of that subject matter and gets a 60% improvement this year, the teacher is evaluated well for that student. If the class as a whole gets a 60% improvement and the teacher achieves a 55% improvement, the teacher is evaluated to have performed poorly.

bottom 15% of teachers over a three year period are let go and net teachers tried under a jack welch sort of system. Top 15% of teachers are considered for promotions, special (money earning duties), etc.

I think this probably the only way we can isolate teacher performance from crappy parents or crappy students.

Your suggestion only takes into account student growth. What about the other facts beyond teacher control that affect such growth? By your evaluation, teachers are made responsible for that as well and major life events are not the only factors beyond teacher control. That makes zero sense.