How much does the EU owe..Roger..Roger

[deltabtry]

 

[Baltim]

This amused me for a minute but then the full enormity of the subject kicks in

 

[alexa]

This amused me for a minute but then the full enormity of the subject kicks in

I agree it is worrying. We are only I think beginning to to get a glimpse of what it might be like. Did you see that Panorama program on Ireland? Makes the mind boggle that it could become pretty barren of the young.

Other cuts, well just in education, we see in Scotland the arts really affected. Music classes are no longer seen as necessary - I think about half have been cut. Dance classes too. Both my daughter and her husband face possible redundancy. He was told he was being made redundant but they have come up with another job he can apply for - basically the same job, more work and less pay. My daughter is hopeful she will be alright but will need to wait till April to be sure. Certainly is the first time this sort of thing has hit me and, sad to say, it is really only when it hits you that you see the full reality.

Worrying times ahead.

I know a few years ago, I told my daughter that I believed that all the money that was around at the time was a blip. It had never been there before and I suspected would soon be gone.

Heck, we might need to get back to thinking about things like quality of live rather than quantity of possessions. :doh

 

[PeteEU]

The EU has no debt of any significance if at all. This is a right wing anti European propaganda hit piece pure and simple since it does not even define "debt". The facts are totally inaccurate.

Spain does not owe 1 trillion Euro's. Spain's economy is 1 trillion Euros and the latest debt vs GDP is at 63.4% (lower than Germany, France, UK, US and most other big industrialised nations. And if you cant do the math... 63.4% of 1 trillion is not 1 trillion.

Portugal is in the same situation. Its economy is 160 billion Euros. Its debt vs GDP is at 83% according to the latest numbers, and no matter how you slice and dice that, it can never ever be 1 trillion dollars.

Ireland is a 172 billion Euro economy and the video "claims" a debt load of 864 billion. The latest official numbers state that Ireland has a debt vs GDP of 94%, and no matter how you slice and dice that.. it is in no way 864 billion.

Greece .. this number is oddly near the the truth, but still off. Greece has a 350 billion Europ economy and a debt vs GDP of 144% according to the latest numbers.. and err that is not 367 billion but actually more.

So to conclude.. this video is utter bullcrap and propaganda by the anti-EU crowd.

 

[alexa]

The EU has no debt of any significance if at all. This is a right wing anti European propaganda hit piece pure and simple since it does not even define "debt". The facts are totally inaccurate.

Spain does not owe 1 trillion Euro's. Spain's economy is 1 trillion Euros and the latest debt vs GDP is at 63.4% (lower than Germany, France, UK, US and most other big industrialised nations. And if you cant do the math... 63.4% of 1 trillion is not 1 trillion.

Portugal is in the same situation. Its economy is 160 billion Euros. Its debt vs GDP is at 83% according to the latest numbers, and no matter how you slice and dice that, it can never ever be 1 trillion dollars.

Ireland is a 172 billion Euro economy and the video "claims" a debt load of 864 billion. The latest official numbers state that Ireland has a debt vs GDP of 94%, and no matter how you slice and dice that.. it is in no way 864 billion.

Greece .. this number is oddly near the the truth, but still off. Greece has a 350 billion Europ economy and a debt vs GDP of 144% according to the latest numbers.. and err that is not 367 billion but actually more.

So to conclude.. this video is utter bullcrap and propaganda by the anti-EU crowd.

You are noticing no dramatic cuts in Denmark and changes to pensions and the like? Maybe it is just the path this coalition has taken the UK, trying to deal with the situation too quickly?

 

[PeteEU]

You are noticing no dramatic cuts in Denmark and changes to pensions and the like? Maybe it is just the path this coalition has taken the UK, trying to deal with the situation too quickly?

Oh there are cuts, but if you notice all the countries with the biggest cuts despite not having a major deficit, are run by right wing governments (as is Denmark) and now they have the excuse to cut their pet peeves. It is happening in the US as we have seen and is happening in Europe. It is the usual right wing subjects.. healthcare and other social stuff.

Like it or not, the real bad nations are Ireland and Greece and there are specific issues with both countries. The rest of Europe is no worse or better off than the rest of the industrialised world. In fact Spain is in a much better situation than say the UK or France or Germany if we look at the debt ratio (public).

The problem is that certain people (as in this OP video) are mixing public debt together with private debt and talking "total" external debt and it is selective partisan statistics. Public debt is and always has been the main issue, but because these people cant gain any more headway on the subject because Europe is actually doing something to combat it, then they have switched their attacks on "External debt" which includes private held debt. And private debt will always been much larger than public debt as it includes everything from personal loans, credit cards and house mortgages. And the problem with the number "external debt" is that it does not take into account the banks. For example, in Denmark, the second biggest bank is Swedish. So any debt to said bank is considered "external". If you owe money to Banco Santander in the UK, then that is external debt too and so on. Add to that the way banks conduct business and then suddenly banking countries like Luxembourg have massive "external debt" and look like they are about to go bust.. when in fact the reality is much difference.

 

[alexa]

Oh there are cuts, but if you notice all the countries with the biggest cuts despite not having a major deficit, are run by right wing governments (as is Denmark) and now they have the excuse to cut their pet peeves. It is happening in the US as we have seen and is happening in Europe. It is the usual right wing subjects.. healthcare and other social stuff.

Like it or not, the real bad nations are Ireland and Greece and there are specific issues with both countries. The rest of Europe is no worse or better off than the rest of the industrialised world. In fact Spain is in a much better situation than say the UK or France or Germany if we look at the debt ratio (public).

The problem is that certain people (as in this OP video) are mixing public debt together with private debt and talking "total" external debt and it is selective partisan statistics. Public debt is and always has been the main issue, but because these people cant gain any more headway on the subject because Europe is actually doing something to combat it, then they have switched their attacks on "External debt" which includes private held debt. And private debt will always been much larger than public debt as it includes everything from personal loans, credit cards and house mortgages. And the problem with the number "external debt" is that it does not take into account the banks. For example, in Denmark, the second biggest bank is Swedish. So any debt to said bank is considered "external". If you owe money to Banco Santander in the UK, then that is external debt too and so on. Add to that the way banks conduct business and then suddenly banking countries like Luxembourg have massive "external debt" and look like they are about to go bust.. when in fact the reality is much difference.

At the same time, and if we just accept the OP as satire, the experience in the UK is not good. University staff being thrown out on their ears, almost all councils needing to sack workers, reduce pay, early start programs for disadvantaged children which were beginning to see a rise in social mobility being curtailed, house prices dropping again, growth dropping again. It is concerning.

I agree that right wing govs do get in backing their favs and it can be very hard to get them back, but I am feeling concerned for the future....and Ireland, even worse.

(I understand in Denmark you do not have the same problems with social mobility we do)

 

[Grant]

The EU has no debt of any significance if at all. This is a right wing anti European propaganda hit piece pure and simple since it does not even define "debt". The facts are totally inaccurate.

Spain does not owe 1 trillion Euro's. Spain's economy is 1 trillion Euros and the latest debt vs GDP is at 63.4% (lower than Germany, France, UK, US and most other big industrialised nations. And if you cant do the math... 63.4% of 1 trillion is not 1 trillion.

Portugal is in the same situation. Its economy is 160 billion Euros. Its debt vs GDP is at 83% according to the latest numbers, and no matter how you slice and dice that, it can never ever be 1 trillion dollars.

Ireland is a 172 billion Euro economy and the video "claims" a debt load of 864 billion. The latest official numbers state that Ireland has a debt vs GDP of 94%, and no matter how you slice and dice that.. it is in no way 864 billion.

Greece .. this number is oddly near the the truth, but still off. Greece has a 350 billion Europ economy and a debt vs GDP of 144% according to the latest numbers.. and err that is not 367 billion but actually more.

So to conclude.. this video is utter bullcrap and propaganda by the anti-EU crowd.

Anyone who opens their argument by claiming "Right Wing propaganda" has just lost it.

 

[Grant]

At the same time, and if we just accept the OP as satire, the experience in the UK is not good. University staff being thrown out on their ears, almost all councils needing to sack workers, reduce pay, early start programs for disadvantaged children which were beginning to see a rise in social mobility being curtailed, house prices dropping again, growth dropping again. It is concerning.

I agree that right wing govs do get in backing their favs and it can be very hard to get them back, but I am feeling concerned for the future....and Ireland, even worse.

(I understand in Denmark you do not have the same problems with social mobility we do)

Europeans are not alone in their debt crisis. The lessons hold true in all the western democracies, especially the States but including Canada as well.

We have to expect less from the government, get rid of the dead wood, and look after the basics.

The boomers have been the laziest, spoiled, and most demanding generation in world history, and future generations will suffer as a result

 

[PeteEU]

Anyone who opens their argument by claiming "Right Wing propaganda" has just lost it.

Claiming? It is the right that is against "Europe" and the EU, especially in the UK. It is the right that have pushed this idea that any and all debt by governments is bad and the only way we can save ourselves is by gutting the very society we are so proud of, just because they say "we cant afford it".. funny how we can afford bailing out their banks but not funding our healthcare system..

 

[PeteEU]

At the same time, and if we just accept the OP as satire, the experience in the UK is not good. University staff being thrown out on their ears, almost all councils needing to sack workers, reduce pay, early start programs for disadvantaged children which were beginning to see a rise in social mobility being curtailed, house prices dropping again, growth dropping again. It is concerning.

yes, but that again is because of the Conservative/Lib Dem government cutting costs. Now saying that the UK is far more "socialist" than most other European countries.. ironically. The UK gives far more benefits and so on than most other countries and could use a haircut so to say. Problem is that the UK is also highly divided along social and class lines (like it or not) compared to other countries and that is a problem. Your NHS is miss managed thanks to the gutting by Thatcher. Because of the near privatisation of the NHS by Thatcher the administration costs have sky rocketed just as they are in all privately run healthcare systems. That the Con/Lib Dems want to gut it even more like Thatcher will most likely result in even worse service and higher administration costs. But we shall see.

I agree that right wing govs do get in backing their favs and it can be very hard to get them back, but I am feeling concerned for the future.

You should be, at least in the short term. Like it or not the over all UK debt is not that bad. Your problem is your deficit, which in part is due to your bailout of your banks and the lower tax income due to the problems in the credit markets. You are far too dependent on the City of London, which also makes you easy targets for the City of London to exploit the British government for all she got. But you have plenty of places you can cut, including the military. For one, that you can as a UK citizen be on the "doll" and live in Spain is beyond me (yes I know of at least 2 who do it here). But the cuts that have come in place and are planned are so harsh and so sudden that at least in the short term it will most likely mean you will go into recession and unemployment will grow. But if the Con/Lib Dem government can gut the UK economy enough and drive people into poverty, then low paying manufacturing jobs will become more realistic and that will save you money on education.. you dont need a masters to make cheap crap for the rest of the world..

and yes the last line was highly sarcastic.

...and Ireland, even worse.

Ireland got screwed by their own government and their arrogant banks. They drank too much right wing policy juice, thinking they could grow their economy based on borrowed money.. much like the US. Ireland and Greece ****ed up and should not be taken as a litmus test for the rest of Europe. Most European economies are very sound, including Spain and Portugal and Italy.

(I understand in Denmark you do not have the same problems with social mobility we do)

Nope... that is thanks to our free education system if you ask me. Because of this, the social mobility problems that were around before WW2 and just after, were eliminated pretty much by the 1970s. Anyone from any part of society, with or without money, can become a doctor, policeman, or an actor if they so wish to do so. My father, came from a worker family who voted Social Democrats, were union members and worked as smiths and bricklayers. He started out as a bricklayer because that was the family way, but was given the chance in the 1960s to go to University and become and Engineer. Just 20 years before that, that would have been unheard off. Higher education was only for those who were either connected or had money. This has also meant that the income inequality in Denmark is very low. We might not be the richest in GDP per capita, but we are in the top 20 I believe, and huge majority of the population benefit from our wealth. Denmark's problem is its cost base (high wages) is bad for our competitive edge and of course the usual mantra of too high taxes.

 

[Grant]

Claiming? It is the right that is against "Europe" and the EU, especially in the UK. It is the right that have pushed this idea that any and all debt by governments is bad and the only way we can save ourselves is by gutting the very society we are so proud of, just because they say "we cant afford it".. funny how we can afford bailing out their banks but not funding our healthcare system..

Yep.

It's all about the 'right wing propaganda' and everything is still cool, economy-wise.

For a while many thought pensions might be in jeopardy but it seems the riots convinced the governments that there was still a lot money available after all.

You left wing economists sure know your stuff.

 

[PeteEU]

Yep.

It's all about the 'right wing propaganda' and everything is still cool, economy-wise.

For a while many thought pensions might be in jeopardy but it seems the riots convinced the governments that there was still a lot money available after all.

You left wing economists sure know your stuff.

Dude.. you do know that most major and even minor European countries have had right wing governments for the last decade right?

You do know it is mostly right wing policies in the US that caused this cluster**** of an economic crisis right?

You do know that most European countries have had pretty much balanced budgets for a very long time? Heck some have had surpluses for over a decade (read Spain)..

Our over all debt load in Europe has not changed much even because of this economic crisis but all of a sudden it became a problem for some reason in every country... right after the right wing wet dream of debt laden economic growth went bust in the US.

And I am not left wing by any means. I want as small government as it is possible as long as we maintain the society we have and cut the dead weight and bring in efficiencies. That is unlike you and your types who want to gut anything government just for the hell of it and turn it over to private run greedy corporations who CAUSED the ****ing problem in the first place.

 

[Grant]

Your NHS is miss managed thanks to the gutting by Thatcher. Because of the near privatisation of the NHS by Thatcher the administration costs have sky rocketed just as they are in all privately run healthcare systems. That the Con/Lib Dems want to gut it even more like Thatcher will most likely result in even worse service and higher administration costs. But we shall see.

So Thatcher 'gutted' the NHS and yet they still have over 1.5 million employees? That's one of the largest group of employees in the world, right behind WalMart.

How many more employees do you think will be required before the NHS reaches the level the British people expect?

 

[Grant]

Dude.. you do know that most major and even minor European countries have had right wing governments for the last decade right?

You do know it is mostly right wing policies in the US that caused this cluster**** of an economic crisis right?

You do know that most European countries have had pretty much balanced budgets for a very long time? Heck some have had surpluses for over a decade (read Spain)..

Our over all debt load in Europe has not changed much even because of this economic crisis but all of a sudden it became a problem for some reason in every country... right after the right wing wet dream of debt laden economic growth went bust in the US.

And I am not left wing by any means. I want as small government as it is possible as long as we maintain the society we have and cut the dead weight and bring in efficiencies. That is unlike you and your types who want to gut anything government just for the hell of it and turn it over to private run greedy corporations who CAUSED the ****ing problem in the first place.

As this is an international board and the term 'right wing' can mean quite different things to different people, it might be worth your while to drop the term and deal in the specifics of an issue.

But my feeling is you can't do it. It's too much a part of your vocabulary.

 

[alexa]

yes, but that again is because of the Conservative/Lib Dem government cutting costs. Now saying that the UK is far more "socialist" than most other European countries.. ironically. The UK gives far more benefits and so on than most other countries and could use a haircut so to say. Problem is that the UK is also highly divided along social and class lines (like it or not) compared to other countries and that is a problem. Your NHS is miss managed thanks to the gutting by Thatcher. Because of the near privatisation of the NHS by Thatcher the administration costs have sky rocketed just as they are in all privately run healthcare systems. That the Con/Lib Dems want to gut it even more like Thatcher will most likely result in even worse service and higher administration costs. But we shall see.



You should be, at least in the short term. Like it or not the over all UK debt is not that bad. Your problem is your deficit, which in part is due to your bailout of your banks and the lower tax income due to the problems in the credit markets. You are far too dependent on the City of London, which also makes you easy targets for the City of London to exploit the British government for all she got. But you have plenty of places you can cut, including the military. For one, that you can as a UK citizen be on the "doll" and live in Spain is beyond me (yes I know of at least 2 who do it here). But the cuts that have come in place and are planned are so harsh and so sudden that at least in the short term it will most likely mean you will go into recession and unemployment will grow. But if the Con/Lib Dem government can gut the UK economy enough and drive people into poverty, then low paying manufacturing jobs will become more realistic and that will save you money on education.. you dont need a masters to make cheap crap for the rest of the world..

and yes the last line was highly sarcastic.



Ireland got screwed by their own government and their arrogant banks. They drank too much right wing policy juice, thinking they could grow their economy based on borrowed money.. much like the US. Ireland and Greece ****ed up and should not be taken as a litmus test for the rest of Europe. Most European economies are very sound, including Spain and Portugal and Italy.



Nope... that is thanks to our free education system if you ask me. Because of this, the social mobility problems that were around before WW2 and just after, were eliminated pretty much by the 1970s. Anyone from any part of society, with or without money, can become a doctor, policeman, or an actor if they so wish to do so. My father, came from a worker family who voted Social Democrats, were union members and worked as smiths and bricklayers. He started out as a bricklayer because that was the family way, but was given the chance in the 1960s to go to University and become and Engineer. Just 20 years before that, that would have been unheard off. Higher education was only for those who were either connected or had money. This has also meant that the income inequality in Denmark is very low. We might not be the richest in GDP per capita, but we are in the top 20 I believe, and huge majority of the population benefit from our wealth. Denmark's problem is its cost base (high wages) is bad for our competitive edge and of course the usual mantra of too high taxes.

Thanks Pete,

I am concerned that the quick cuts, which are really just going to hit - well in Scotland, are going to stop recovery so I think we agree that the cuts are too quick.

But the main thing I want to talk about is class and education.

Where we had our best social mobility was when we had Grammar Schools where people were creamed off at 11 to get an elitist education. There is no question that that was the one time when we had genuine social mobility - that and free higher education along with grants for living expenses.

However this system went hand in hand with the kids who didn't make it receiving an extremely inferior education and invariably also growing up with low self esteem having been thrown on the scrap heap at 11.

So we brought in comprehensive schooling and ten years or so ago we started bringing in fees for Higher education and withdrew grants for maintenance.

Our social mobility now is reckoned to be as bad as it was in the 1920's.

and I would agree with you on the class issue though people do not like to talk about it too much.

It is only recently that the new class privilege system is beginning to become clear. There is a new upper class and they will be staying there. Middle class and working class people will generally not manage to make it. You begin with a bit of money. Doesn't matter how you made it. The Stock exchange will do just fine but you need a bit of money to get your family off. They go to an expensive fee paying school and then onto one of the top Universities. Through this they network and it is through the networking, not unlike the old network of the aristocracy, that they meet people and get the opportunities. Also frequently for the best positions it is now expected that people do an 'intern' time and clearly that is only possible if you have the money. A would be journalist for instance would be expected to provide free work for quite some time before getting a job whereas in previous times he would maybe have made tea for a year or so and learnt the ropes.

Now don't get me wrong. Everyone in this country has the opportunity to get a good education and we still have many families with children being the first to get a degree ---it is just that if they do not get their degree from the right University, regardless of how intelligent and capable they are, having not made the right contacts, doors may not open for them.

It is something which is beginning to be talked about.

My wish would be that if times get bad people start getting a little aware of politics again...and I blame Thatcher's destruction of the Unions for our loss of political awareness among ordinary people.

 

[PeteEU]

As this is an international board and the term 'right wing' can mean quite different things to different people, it might be worth your while to drop the term and deal in the specifics of an issue.

No. I refuse to bend to one part of one nations warped idea of what is right wing and what is not. The standard of "right wing" is not set by the US and like it or not I am 10000000000% correct. The Conservatives of the UK are right wing... Sarkozy is right wing, Merkel is right wing and so on and so on. That they might not be "right wing" enough for a minority in the US is not my freaking problem, the fact is they are STILL RIGHT WINGERS by any normal international standard.

 

[American]

No. I refuse to bend to one part of one nations warped idea of what is right wing and what is not. The standard of "right wing" is not set by the US and like it or not I am 10000000000% correct. The Conservatives of the UK are right wing... Sarkozy is right wing, Merkel is right wing and so on and so on. That they might not be "right wing" enough for a minority in the US is not my freaking problem, the fact is they are STILL RIGHT WINGERS by any normal international standard.

Geez, don't have a stroke.

 

[Grant]

No. I refuse to bend to one part of one nations warped idea of what is right wing and what is not. The standard of "right wing" is not set by the US and like it or not I am 10000000000% correct. The Conservatives of the UK are right wing... Sarkozy is right wing, Merkel is right wing and so on and so on. That they might not be "right wing" enough for a minority in the US is not my freaking problem, the fact is they are STILL RIGHT WINGERS by any normal international standard.

Yeah, I didn't think you could do it. Everything is Left Wing Good, Right Wing Bad.

This is the world George Orwell envisioned, and he even had the location right. I suppose it does have the advantage of explaining complex ideas, or your political positions, more easily.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- So to conclude.. this video is utter bullcrap and propaganda by the anti-EU crowd.

It's a comedy sketch from an Australian satirical comedy duo called John Clark and Bryan Dawe.

Like all good comedy there's humour and artistic licence with facts to make a story have more potential. There's no hiding the fact nearly all western economies have problems and that includes the US.

 

[Djoop]

No. I refuse to bend to one part of one nations warped idea of what is right wing and what is not. The standard of "right wing" is not set by the US and like it or not I am 10000000000% correct. The Conservatives of the UK are right wing... Sarkozy is right wing, Merkel is right wing and so on and so on. That they might not be "right wing" enough for a minority in the US is not my freaking problem, the fact is they are STILL RIGHT WINGERS by any normal international standard.

There is no normal international standard. Conservatives of the UK are centre right, there's enuff left, or do I mean right, like UKIP and the BNP. It's the extremes that make the centre.

 

[Grant]

There is no normal international standard. Conservatives of the UK are centre right, there's enuff left, or do I mean right, like UKIP and the BNP. It's the extremes that make the centre.

There aren't even any agreed upon regional standards, Djooop. It is a quite useless term.

"When I use a word," PeteEU said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

 

[Djoop]

There aren't even any agreed upon regional standards, Djooop. It is a quite useless term.

"When I use a word," PeteEU said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

Yeah, he's not familiar with Wittgenstein. In his defense, he doesn't flipflop, you know what you're in for.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

There is no normal international standard. Conservatives of the UK are centre right

The conservatives here are a broad coalition covering people on the right like Thatcher, Tebbit, Redford etc and others on the centre left like Kenneth Clarke.

or do I mean right, like UKIP and the BNP. It's the extremes that make the centre.

Are you trying to pass the BNP off as an ordinary right wing party...? I've seen American posters try and do this too - does that mean the KKK is an ordinary right wing party too?

 

[Djoop]

Are you trying to pass the BNP off as an ordinary right wing party...? I've seen American posters try and do this too - does that mean the KKK is an ordinary right wing party too?

Never knew it was a political party...