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I'm not sure how you could possibly have come to the conclusion that I mean "jealousy" when I attribute this to insecurity.

People who are insecure in themselves seek out ways to make themselves feel superior to others. People who look down their noses at otehrs usually have very little self-confidence.

or they have an overabundance. jealousy, from where i've seen this line of argument before, is the usual endstate of the descriptionof the condition; i am beautiful and desired / handsome and suave and they are not, which is why i am sexually active and they are not, and they secretly wish to be me, but they can't, so they construct a worldview which allows them to look down on me, because they are insecure about themselves, inasmuch as they are not as free as me etc. and so forth.

:shrug: it might be that's nowhere near what you were shooting for, it's merely what i've seen before. but i think you're pushing psuedo-psychoanalysis here with the pride=insecurity bit.
 
or they have an overabundance. jealousy, from where i've seen this line of argument before, is the usual endstate of the descriptionof the condition; i am beautiful and desired / handsome and suave and they are not, which is why i am sexually active and they are not, and they secretly wish to be me, but they can't, so they construct a worldview which allows them to look down on me, because they are insecure about themselves, inasmuch as they are not as free as me etc. and so forth.

:shrug: it might be that's nowhere near what you were shooting for, it's merely what i've seen before. but i think you're pushing psuedo-psychoanalysis here with the pride=insecurity bit.


I'm not sure what line of argument other people use, but if your rebuttals are to their points, perhaps they should also be addressed to them, no? It makes no sens eto rebut their points with me.

And you've oversimplified my position to an absurd degree when you say it is "pride=insecurity". I was very clear that pride that shows up in the form of vilification is a product of insecurity.

I'm not sure who you are debating here, but form the looks of it, it isn't me.
 
pride that shows up in the form of vilification is a product of insecurity.

see that is the formula that i'm not buying here. there are plenty other sources for pride that exhibits villification.
 
Perhaps you could give some examples.

actual no-kidding I'm-better-than-you plain old pride.

moral law without grace

intellectual disdain for personally destructive behavior

:shrug: it certainly doesn't have to be insecurity. back before i realized what i was doing; i was a pretty big practitioner of all three items here on my (short) list; now it's less that i've completely stopped falling into those traps, and more that i recognize them for what they are.
 
actual no-kidding I'm-better-than-you plain old pride.

moral law without grace

intellectual disdain for personally destructive behavior

:shrug: it certainly doesn't have to be insecurity. back before i realized what i was doing; i was a pretty big practitioner of all three items here on my (short) list; now it's less that i've completely stopped falling into those traps, and more that i recognize them for what they are.

Those example don't contradict my statement because even if one possesses those traits while being secure in themselves (in at least one of those I would argue that being secure in one's self while also having that characteristic is impossible), vilification of a person would not occur. With the two latter examples, a secure person might vilify the behavior, but they would not vilify the person who engages in the behavior.

Generally, a secure person would not think they are "better" than someone else in general because being secure in one's self requires an understanding of one's own imperfections. By understanding our own imperfections, one recognizes that there is no better, only different combination of weaknesses and strengths.
 
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Those example don't contradict my statement because even if one possesses those traits while being secure in themselves (in at least one of those I would argue that being secure in one's self while also having that characteristic is impossible), vilification of a person would not occur. With the two latter examples, a secure person might vilify the behavior, but they would not vilify the person who engages in the behavior.

of course they could. as Aristotle taught, we are what we repeatedly do. if what we repeatedly do, therefore, is a morally degenerate act, then we ourselves are morally degenerate, and inferior in that regard to those who consistently avoid such deeds or instead perform morally superior acts.

Generally, a secure person would not think they are "better" than someone else in general because being secure in one's self requires an understanding of one's own imperfections. By understanding our own imperfections, one recognizes that there is no better, only different combination of weaknesses and strengths.

interesting notion. hmm. alright i'll bite; what weaknesses do you have that match saddam husseins' evil brutality when it comes to the scale of moral degeneracy? must be pretty impressive to match torturing children in front of their parents.
 
of course they could. as Aristotle taught, we are what we repeatedly do. if what we repeatedly do, therefore, is a morally degenerate act, then we ourselves are morally degenerate, and inferior in that regard to those who consistently avoid such deeds or instead perform morally superior acts.

Morally degenerate is fairly a subjective term, but I do not buy the theory that one person is better than another simply because they don't engage in the same behaviors. They didn't live in the same conditions as the other person. It's entirely possible that, given the same conditions of life, the supposedly better person would have been twice as bad as the supposedly bad person was.


interesting notion. hmm. alright i'll bite; what weaknesses do you have that match saddam husseins' evil brutality when it comes to the scale of moral degeneracy? must be pretty impressive to match torturing children in front of their parents.

I said weaknesses, not behaviors. Obviously a tally of behaviors (which I've said can be vilified by a secure person) are a different thing from personal characteristics that could lead to the behaviors under certain conditions. I have no guarantees that I could have lived in Saddam's shoes and not ended up doing the exact same things he did.
 
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Morally degenerate is fairly a subjective term, but I do not buy the theory that one person is better than another simply because they don't engage in the same behaviors. They didn't live in the same conditions as the other person. It's entirely possible that, given the same conditions of life, the supposedly better person would have been twice as bad as the supposedly bad person was.


That's what I always thought, too.
It's why I decided pretty early in life that all three of the Abrahamic religions were bogus.
How can our performance on a test- ie, this short life- be the sole determinant of whether we spend eternity in paradise or roasting in eternal torment, when everyone is laboring under different conditions?
It would be real easy to be "good" (in the Biblical sense) if you were, say, blind and confined to a wheelchair.
It would be pretty easy if you were outlandishly wealthy and had everything handed to you on a silver platter.
But some people, you know... they suffer a lot early in life. And it causes them to grow up unstable and possibly cruel. Maybe they can successfully combat their natures and impulses or maybe not. But either way, the way they are is not their fault. And either way, their life is exponentially more difficult than that of someone who has had everything given to them, and who has never known anything but kindness, affection and approval.

Same with this whole "you go to hell unless you accept Christ as your personal savior" stuff that the protestants are always peddling.
If there's a God, is it my fault he gave me this particular brain, which is incapable of blind, illogical faith? Why would he condemn me for being what he made me?
It's as if God arbitrarily decided that he'd condemn everyone to hell who'd never seen an elephant with their own eyes, and was completely unsympathetic to the fact some people are born blind, and others are born into dire poverty in geographical locales where they'd never have the opportunity to see an elephant.
 
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Morally degenerate is fairly a subjective term, but I do not buy the theory that one person is better than another simply because they don't engage in the same behaviors

and that's fine that you believe that; but that does not mean that everyone believes it. those who put down others for what they see as immoral behavior may, for example, believe that immoral behavior makes you a "worse" person. that there is something inferior about (say) an elementary school teacher that molests their students v one who does not.

and because they truly view them as morally inferior, it doesn't require an innate sense of inferiority or insecurity for them to villify or degrade them.
 
That's what I always thought, too.
It's why I decided pretty early in life that all three of the Abrahamic religions were bogus.
How can our performance on a test- ie, this short life- be the sole determinant of whether we spend eternity in paradise or roasting in eternal torment, when everyone is laboring under different conditions?

:confused: um, you realize that, according to at least one of those Abrahamic religions, it's not only not the sole determinant, it's not even a determinant?

It would be real easy to be "good" (in the Biblical sense) if you were, say, blind and confined to a wheelchair.

:hah: i doubt it; human weakness seems a universal characteristic

It would be pretty easy if you were outlandishly wealthy and had everything handed to you on a silver platter.

like Paris Hilton? wealth doesn't make it easier for you to be good; if anything it makes it more difficult because it keeps you from experiencing consequences from your actions, and tends to surround you with people more likely to excuse your behavior. as the man once said "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle".

at best wealth simply magnifies what you already are by increasing your ability to turn your tendencies into action.

But some people, you know... they suffer a lot early in life. And it causes them to grow up unstable and possibly cruel. Maybe they can successfully combat their natures and impulses or maybe not. But either way, the way they are is not their fault.

your temptations may not be your choice (often they are as well, however). your actions always are; when you perform wrong deeds, it is most assuredly your fault.

Same with this whole "you go to hell unless you accept Christ as your personal savior" stuff that the protestants are always peddling. If there's a God, is it my fault he gave me this particular brain, which is incapable of blind, illogical faith? Why would he condemn me for being what he made me?

well, firstly, we would state that He didn't; that faith is a choice, just as love is. secondly, though most of us would say that the choice seems to be forgiveness or hell; that frankly we're not on the Heaven/Hell Allocation Committee (that's a committee of one. or three, i suppose, depending on how you're counting), and that He is of course free to make whatever decision He see's fit to. frankly, i have no idea how you can go to hell (if that was where you wanted to go). i just know how you can enter into the most wonderful relationship you will ever know; which has the side benefit of being able to continue said relationship after death.

It's as if God arbitrarily decided that he'd condemn everyone to hell who'd never seen an elephant with their own eyes, and was completely unsympathetic to the fact some people are born blind, and others are born into dire poverty in geographical locales where they'd never have the opportunity to see an elephant.

Paul addresses this on a couple of occasions; simply never recieving the Gospel doesn't doom you for eternity. for before they had the law the law was emplaced in their hearts.


A particularly well done impression of this (i think) is seen in CS Lewis' last installment of the Narnia series, where Aslan has returned and is taking those who have held true away from a civil war and destruction to a far better land (heaven), and Emeth, a foriegn soldier who had invaded Narnia and made war against 'the people of Aslan' finds himself called by Aslan to come with them, despite his service to the 'god' Tash, who demanded cruelty of his worshipers.

" the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then, by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which though hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Doust thou understand, child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."
 
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well, firstly, we would state that He didn't; that faith is a choice, just as love is.

I don't believe either is.
There are people in my life I would stop loving if I could. My love for them is hurting me. it's damaging me. I don't have the option of stopping.
There are people I would love if I could, because I know they need it. But they're not lovable to me. The best I can do is pretend to care about them, and hope that at some point the pretense will give way to some sort of genuine emotion.

Faith and love are good parallels, actually, but my conclusion is the opposite of yours: one can no more force faith than one can force love.
 
I don't believe either is.
There are people in my life I would stop loving if I could. My love for them is hurting me. it's damaging me. I don't have the option of stopping.

i have seen this put up as a counterargument before, and so i must not be putting my argument right.

you can love those who make themselves as unlovable as they can. it is a matter of choice and (often) habit. whether you can stop loving by choice? i don't know. i know only that it works in the one direction, i can't speak much to the other; my faith teaches me to try to be expanding the range of those to whom i show love, not curtail it.

There are people I would love if I could, because I know they need it. But they're not lovable to me. The best I can do is pretend to care about them, and hope that at some point the pretense will give way to some sort of genuine emotion.

:shrug: that has worked with me for different emotions. motivation, for example :D. as for love i can't say; i find that the actions of being loving tend to help feed the empathy and emotion, certainly. part of human psychology, i suppose, once we've give of ourselves into someone we have a bit of a vested interest.

Faith and love are good parallels, actually, but my conclusion is the opposite of yours: one can no more force faith than one can force love.

then i have to say that the only person who is wrong between us is he or she who would push the absolute. i can think of a couple of cases in my life where i have chosen to love; even when it was clear to me at that moment in time that i had a choice (and when frankly it would have been easier to walk away). evidently we can declare the absolute in that direction incorrect; i am not so sure about the other; it seems more akin to proving a negative.
 
i have seen this put up as a counterargument before, and so i must not be putting my argument right.

you can love those who make themselves as unlovable as they can. it is a matter of choice and (often) habit. whether you can stop loving by choice? i don't know. i know only that it works in the one direction, i can't speak much to the other; my faith teaches me to try to be expanding the range of those to whom i show love, not curtail it.



:shrug: that has worked with me for different emotions. motivation, for example :D. as for love i can't say; i find that the actions of being loving tend to help feed the empathy and emotion, certainly. part of human psychology, i suppose, once we've give of ourselves into someone we have a bit of a vested interest.



then i have to say that the only person who is wrong between us is he or she who would push the absolute. i can think of a couple of cases in my life where i have chosen to love; even when it was clear to me at that moment in time that i had a choice (and when frankly it would have been easier to walk away). evidently we can declare the absolute in that direction incorrect; i am not so sure about the other; it seems more akin to proving a negative.

Romantic/sexual love might be a "choice".
I've never been the type to stay with a guy who doesn't treat me as I feel I deserve to be treated. Whether I "love" him or not, I'm not physically going to stay with him.
Friends, same deal. I've had friends that I loved at one time, that I don't love any more.
Sometimes it's because we just drifted apart, other times there was a particular event that led to the dissolution of our friendship.
But what about your parents, or your grown children?
Do you really think you can simply choose to stop loving these people, as easily as turning off a light?
And do you really think you can just walk up to some random stranger and decide to start loving them?
Love isn't a choice.
Actions are a choice. You can pretend to love someone. You can shut someone out of your life and never talk to them again, even though you love them.
But I don't believe the actual emotion can just be willed from thin air, simply because you "choose" it. Nor can it be shut off by choice.

And faith, exactly the same.
There are some beliefs I have that I absolutely cannot be dissuaded from, no matter how hard people try, because my life experience has taught me that these things are so.
And there are other things I don't believe, and can't force myself to believe, because- again- my life experience had taught me that they are not so, and also, they just don't feel right or true.
I think a person would almost have to be crazy, in order to have the ability to force themselves to believe something they didn't believe.
 
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and because they truly view them as morally inferior, it doesn't require an innate sense of inferiority or insecurity for them to villify or degrade them.

I would say it does take an innate sense of insecurity in order to truly view them as being morally inferior instead of viewing their morals as being inferior.
 
Romantic/sexual love might be a "choice".

eros? definitely.

I've never been the type to stay with a guy who doesn't treat me as I feel I deserve to be treated. Whether I "love" him or not, I'm not physically going to stay with him.
Friends, same deal. I've had friends that I loved at one time, that I don't love any more.
Sometimes it's because we just drifted apart, other times there was a particular event that led to the dissolution of our friendship.
But what about your parents, or your grown children?
Do you really think you can simply choose to stop loving these people, as easily as turning off a light?

:shrug: again, i don't know. i've met people who have definitely stopped loving their parents (no one i can think of who have stopped loving their children); again, i can't speak that much to this direction of movement, because i avoid it. i can only say with sureity that you can choose to love others.

And do you really think you can just walk up to some random stranger and decide to start loving them?

yup.

Love isn't a choice.

quite the contrary; as the man said, love is a verb.

Actions are a choice. You can pretend to love someone. You can shut someone out of your life and never talk to them again, even though you love them.
But I don't believe the actual emotion can just be willed from thin air, simply because you "choose" it. Nor can it be shut off by choice.

that's because A) you are looking for instant results (again, it's a matter of choice and habit) and B) you are focusing solely on the instant emotion.

And faith, exactly the same.

here i agree; but with my definitions, not yours. faith, too, is action, not merely belief.
 
I would say it does take an innate sense of insecurity in order to truly view them as being morally inferior instead of viewing their morals as being inferior.

:shrug: then i would say you are projecting.
 
I'm not saying that I don't have insecurites, but even still, that's an odd diagnosis in this context.

What would lead you to that conclusion?

i wasn't saying that you do or don't have insecurities; i am saying that you, looking at your own moral makeup, have assessed that for you to engage in this kind of behavior would be you acting out on your insecurities. perhaps you have an example in mind, perhaps you don't. i can see the same kind of thing in myself; and it's typically a human constant. those most dedicated to putting down non-members of a 'select' group are typically those members who are most marginal.

but you are projecting this state of mind onto people who can have all sorts of different bases for the same thrust of action. motivation is as individual as the human is.
 
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i wasn't saying that you do or don't have insecurities; i am saying that you, looking at your own moral makeup, have assessed that for you to engage in this kind of behavior would be you acting out on your insecurities. perhaps you have an example in mind, perhaps you don't. i can see the same kind of thing in myself; and it's typically a human constant. those most dedicated to putting down non-members of a 'select' group are typically those members who are most marginal.

but you are projecting this state of mind onto people who can have all sorts of different bases for the same thrust of action. motivation is as individual as the human is.

Ah, then the basis of my confusion was the fact that that isn't projection.

Psychologically speaking, projection is when a person takes their own repressed/denied emotions/thoughts/characteristics and ascribes them to others people and/or things. for example, if I feel insecure about something, I would then say that others are being inscure while denying my own insecurity.

In the context of this discussion, the only thing I could be projecting in a psychological sense would be insecurity, because nothing else that I've said thus far could have been construed as a repressed or denied characteristic of myself which I was asribing to otehrs besides insecurity.

What you are describing above is generalizing.

I don't deny that I'm generalizing either, but it's not based on my own feelings which could lead to demonization. It actually stems from my main premise that people do not engage in behaviors that don't have some conscious or subconscious benefit for them and my beliefs regarding the only reasonable benefit that can be achieved from demonization and vilification.
 
well okay then, what we are discussing here between generalizing and projecting is semantics.

i would point out that there are plenty of benefits for villifying others that don't necessarily stem from insecurity. lowering others certainly raises yourself, or highlights your own superiority in ways that would appeal even to the most vain.
 
lowering others certainly raises yourself, or highlights your own superiority in ways that would appeal even to the most vain.

That's what I'm saying. Vanity is usually a product of denied/repressed insecurity, IMO.
 
Ok...here's me, jumping in late to the conversation as usual. (I'm always the last to know)

My count thus far: lost count after 20+...there was a time I really don't recall all that occurred but apparently it was all good because I have no bad memories!
Granted, my counting only started immediately after high school as I was a "Good Girl" until I got that diploma in hand.

Then of course I met this one guy who taught me the "it's just sex" attitude, and it was all good from there on out.

Which of course seems so trivial in hindsight as after 25yrs of being friends with the same guy, he's now living with my partner and I. ACK! What a wicked twist that is.
 

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