How Legitimate Peace And Unity Begins

[Lutherf]

Sure, but like ISIS, that advocation comes with limits, and as you can see the social/criminal consequences mean you won’t be part of our society.

In this nation the consequences are levied entirely on one political ideology while the other gets a free pass. That's kind of the root of this whole disagreement.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

In this nation the consequences are levied entirely on one political ideology while the other gets a free pass. That's kind of the root of this whole disagreement.

But that’s silly and purely an emotional reaction, much like charges of election stealing.

The whole disagreement is y’all believe that charging “fraud’ should be good enough for everyone to overturn an election.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Republicans were discouraged from voting? Trump's vote count went UP, not down.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was talking about the run-offs in Georgia. Had the propaganda about fake voter fraud not been pushed by Trump I think the Senate would be in Republican hands now.

With regard to your last point, the left spent more than half of last year engaging in violent acts against the PEOPLE of various cities across the nation. To now decry the protest at the Capitol as being "domestic terrorism" is disingenuous at best.

The vast majority of those on the left and the vast majority of Democrats opposed violent acts such as rioting and looting. Biden, himself, condemned those actions.

What happened on Jan 6th was terrorism, it was an act of violence done in support of a political cause. It was also sedition by the legal definition because the rioters attempted to physically prevent Biden from becoming the President by interfering in his confirmation.

What happened on Jan 6th was the worse act of terrorism since 9/11, and the worse act of domestic terrorism since the Oklahoma City bombings.

If you guys don't come to terms with that, we will see more violence by lunatic Trump supporters in the future.

 

[noonereal]

If there is a reasonable open investigation 90%+ would accept the result.

WTF???????????

There is nothing to investigate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What part of "nothing to investigate" do you not understand?

 

[noonereal]

my point -- I feel it is a good one -- is that what we do to others, will eventually be done to ourselves. It tends to recoil.

This is a mathematical fact not so much a moral statement..

No, the old what goes around comes around is nonsense.

I also disagree with how you characterize things in your post. You initial contention is a fallacy.

 

[Fletch]

That's classic. Your argument gets shot down in 5 short words and you declare it irrelevant!

You cant read either. I said democrats--meaning, people like you.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

No, the old what goes around comes around is nonsense.

I also disagree with how you characterize things in your post. You initial contention is a fallacy.

'What goes around, comes around' means something like *karma*, no? Something like Providence retaliating?

That is not what I am talking about. If unrestricted power is used *out there* and *over there*, the same tools as it were, and even the same agencies and interests, will be tempted to use those tools at home.

It is a quite simply assertion really. And the fact is it had long been documented already. I mean, I am not the one that discovered it.

 

[Tim the plumber]

That is a rather incredible statement.
Without any evidence, millions and millions of Trump supporters "KNOW" there was fraud. Their source? Trump and his minions. When asked if anything would ever convince them otherwise, the response of everyone I've seen was an emphatic "NO" because again, they "KNOW" there was fraud.
Moreover, those actually in charge of voting from Commissioners, Secretaries of state and Governors (even in Republican states) have explained in detail the supposed irregularities.
It has not changed one single Trumper's opinion.

In short, the voter fraud issue is a conspiracy theory that can't be disproven because conspiracy theorists by their nature do not accept evidence contra to their conspiracy.

Well I have seen loads of vido evidence of it.

I suspect that most other open minded and aware people have also seen some of them. That may be why 25% of Democrat voters think the result was a fraud.

 

[noonereal]

Well I have seen loads of vido evidence of it.

I suspect that most other open minded and aware people have also seen some of them. That may be why 25% of Democrat voters think the result was a fraud.

You have not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have seen video that you have been lead to believe (because Trump is a scum bag) is of voter fraud that has already been debunked.
And BTW, the reason 3%, yes 3% not 25% of Dems believe that there was election is fraud is for only one reason, the HABITURAL lies from the animal know as Trump.

Honest, I just don't understand how you allow yourself to be so manipulated. We live in 2021, there is no excuse for this. All the information you need is available at your finger tips.

 

[noonereal]

If unrestricted power is used *out there* and *over there*, the same tools as it were, and even the same agencies and interests, will be tempted to use those tools at home.

It is a quite simply assertion really.

the temptation is there whether used over seas or not.

peace

 

[NatMorton]

What an impotent lil argument ya got goin there.

It's strong enough to be right, and that's all that really matters.

 

[NatMorton]

Who is actually interested in unity with traitors?

I rest my case.

 

[Luce]

I rest my case.

You're correct in that we don't want unity with you guys. Everyone else, yes. Just not you guys.

 

[watsup]

Well I have seen loads of vido evidence of it.

I suspect that most other open minded and aware people have also seen some of them. That may be why 25% of Democrat voters think the result was a fraud.

Show us some.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

It's strong enough to be right, and that's all that really matters.

Soooo tiny

 

[NatMorton]

You're correct in that we don't want unity with you guys. Everyone else, yes. Just not you guys.

Ah yes, single party unity. Where have we heard that before?

 

[NatMorton]

Soooo tiny

It's not the size of the whip but rather the fury of the attack.

 

[Chillfolks]

If more people held the politicians they agree with to the same standard they hold those they disagree with then peace and unity would be easy to accomplish.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

It's not the size of the whip but rather the fury of the attack.

Babble. Better luck next argument.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

The temptation is there whether used overseas or not.

It's odd: I feel I am more on the side of the political right -- I definitely orient myself in social conservatism -- but in these last exchanges with you I am referencing my readings of Noam Chomsky and those opposed to American Neo-imperialism! Oh how confused things are getting! You seem to argue from a platform of the Progressive-Left yet you seem unwilling to consider the primary points I am making, which are Left-Progressive points (though they should be Conservative points).

Since I have already made my point I won't repeat it again. I will only add that around the time of the Spanish-American War (the Philippine and the Cuban invasions) there was a great debate about just the issue we are talking about. The US acted as an invading and occupying force in the Philippines and thus acted completely contrary to its stated (Constitutional) values.

Mark Twain was one of those who adamantly opposed the invasion (Esquire article):

Having once supported America’s growing empire, Twain, who was born Samuel Langhorne Clemens, changed his tune after he saw the true intentions and consequences of imperialism, becoming a full-fledged anti-imperialist by 1899. In an article by the New York Herald in 1900, Twain admitted that he wanted to see the “American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific.” He saw his country as a savior for the Filipino people who had suffered for 300 years under Spanish rule. “We can make them as free as ourselves.”

But soon enough, Twain was enlightened with the truth. “I have read carefully the treaty of Paris, and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem,” said Twain. “And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land.”

Perhaps these seem like arcane points but honestly I do not think so. Our present political reality and the intense confusion in our politics have causal roots.

I recently read most of The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution (Bernard Bailyn, 1967) and the entire conversation about the right of the American colonies to rule themselves is based entirely in idealistic argumentation about weak liberty opposed by aggressive power. The arguments in favor of liberty are soaring & magnificent. It is simply wise it seems to me to pay attention to how principles have been betrayed. In so many different areas. But that is what *corruption* means and what it refers to.

Many of you (here) seem to me to *manage* the narrative that the political Left is a beacon of upstanding righteousness fighting boldly against 'fascists' and Nazis. But the actual facts, when examined, are substantially different. Yet I fully admit that the invasion of the Capitol provided for *your side* a most extraordinary gift. And what happened there really was the stupidest move by the political Right that could be imagined! Total and absolute stupidity. Must I assume that both sides then are simply going off the deep end? I may have to.

 

[noonereal]

It's odd: I feel I am more on the side of the political right -- I definitely orient myself in social conservatism -- but in these last exchanges with you I am referencing my readings of Noam Chomsky and those opposed to American Neo-imperialism! Oh how confused things are getting! You seem to argue from a platform of the Progressive-Left yet you seem unwilling to consider the primary point I am making, which are Left-Progressive points (thought they should be Conservative points).

seems free thinkers cannot be pigeon-holed as can be the sponges of propaganda machines.

 

[RetiredUSN]

You are part of the problem. Instead of taking on your own parties issues, you resort to 7 year old method of they did it too. No the Left has never done anything close towhead Trump and the GOP has done.

I don't have a party....but thx.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Republicans must:

• To a man and woman acknowledge the elections were legitimate, Biden won fairly, and Donald Trump’s fantastical claims of election rigging were just that. They must acknowledge the voter fraud hoax they used as a predicate for their campaigning.
• Those who incited the insurrection by backing these claims should resign. Cruz and Hawley have to go, for sure.
• Donald Trump must be impeached with strong bi-partisan support. Removal, should it come now or next congress, same. Both parties must speak with one voice where he is concerned.
• LEadership must ratchet way down the Rush Limbaification of their rhetoric. Stop using commie marxist socialist interchangably in response to virtually every policy proposal a Democratic politician makes (be adults, and stop with the dumb DEMOCRAT POL shit). Stop calling your voters “patriots” vs everyone else.
• Republican voters themselves need to take a breath and instead of demanding we listen to ”74m of us” stop to think there were 81m who disagreed, we are Americans too, and we should have a say as well. The idea that the 74m are the single most important group of humans in the country demanding all of our oxygen is an idea that needs to be put to bed.

Notice none of these bullet points require accepting policies you don’t agree with, polticians you don’t wish to vote for, etc. But if your expression of peace and unity is simply demanding no accountablity for the GOP while still telling us it was a rigged election and we’re all commies, and George Soros, blah blah nope. Nope.

Elections have consequences.

In direct opposition let me propose the following (more or less off the top of my head):

• First, realize that the nation is controlled, to all appearances, by a sort of ideological régime. What are its terms? Forced egalitarianism; an assault against traditional *gender normalcy* and through this an attack (ultimately) on the 'traditional family'; an open assault against the two fundamental and 'enshrined' Constitutional rights of the First and the Second Amendments; the direct fomenting of racial division as part of a strategy to accentuate differences and arouse social conflict in order to create 'revolutionary' conditions that are then exploited for political purposes; a rather open and obvious (PR and propaganda instigated) program of vilifying white European Americans and an open attack on America's patriot founders in an effort to instill guilt and shame about what America is at a foundational level. (This list can of course be expanded but as I said this *off the top of my head*)
• We have to recognize that we are dealing, essentially, with an extremely devious opponent. This opponent defines *us* (that is, locates an 'other') as 'evil' and as 'the problem'. It accuses others while it engages in exactly the 'evil' and the wrong that it condemns. We are dealing with a very powerful two-faced monster. It describes itself in glowing terms and associates itself with 'goodness' 'righteousness' and indeed with everything positively American and decent, while simultaneously it works to directly and openly undermine what is good, righteous and decent. This 'enemy' must be exposed at every turn. It has extraordinarily powerful tools at its disposal and it has mastered their use and abuse: guilt, shaming, vilification, branding. It itself acts like a reckless mob and it uses mob-techniques (shrill screaming to employ a metaphor) to get its way in the social and political arenas. Because this ideological régime has captured many and most of America's institutions (certainly 'the Academy', definitely Hollywood as this communication and reality-mediating sector is referred to), as well as the Legacy Media so-called, it has a vast power to control, quite literally, how perception is organized. It can make evil seem good and the good seem evil. One must become aware that these are not 'spontaneous' views that are offered, but rather crafted perceptions. These media function therefore through a most astounding and powerful public relations machinery, quite literally on the cutting edge of both PR and propaganda. The *world* that they mediate to us is, quite literally, a complex propaganda.

[cont. next]

 

[Alizia Tyler]

[cont. from previous]

• The man Donald Trump must be both seen, understood but also interpreted. Donald Trump is the most imperfect and mis-suited personage for the rôle that history has assigned to him! He is both a herald and a disaster. Here, we need to consider 'social psychology' and perhaps see things through Jungian lens (CG Jung the Swiss psychologist and mythologist). Donald Trump was, I might suggest, 'called forth' by unconscious social-psychological forces. Even Steve Bannon in a long PBS interview said "Our man will come along". Our man, he meant, who would oppose those who managed the slow decline of America, the 'managed decline'. Bannon (rightfully) despised the Republican Party and wanted to 'hold a torch to it'. Well, the man who came along was Donald Trump. In my view Donald Trump needs to be seen exactly for what he is. The highly imperfect vehicle for a movement that could act as a counter-current to the undermining of *America*. Donald Trump is as defective as is the base that supports him! This must be seen. It must be rectified. What that means is gaining and reclaiming intellectual power. The power to *see* the power to *describe* and the power to *combat* this really quite evil régime which I attempt to describe here. (I use the word 'evil' reluctantly and as carefully as possible).
• It looks, today, that everything has been left in a terrible mess. The man called forth to rectify a whole range of issues and problems was called forth by a very imperfect grouping. That is, the popular sector that responds to Trump. They have unclear ideas and in my view are the class that has been 'dumbed down' through many levels of process. But they also participate in these processes and in a sense you might say that they are *addicted* to them. But this is the situation we face. The *enemy* stands over us today and bellows about its seeming victory, and indeed this *enemy* cannot be underestimated. There are months of trouble and difficulty on the horizon. What is the solution and what is the strategy? Gaining knowledge, gaining understanding. Getting a foothold on a social and political platform that is actionable. This has to do with 'self-definition': defining what it is we actually and truly do believe and also what we really & truly want. Not as a vague hope but as something concrete.
• Our rhetoric must be calmed down while the content of our ideas -- our principles and values that rhetoric embellishes -- must be better worked out. Again, this is a populist movement and in that sense it takes place among unprepared sectors of the population: not well-schooled sometimes, not familiar with *terms of political discourse*. Right now this Progressive/Left Monster (I do not use this term lightly nor irresponsibly) has achieved a massive victory. It will exploit what it has been given on Jan 6 to the absolute max. In collusion with Tech Giants, in collusion with America's governmental and also intelligence agencies, there is going to be a truly brutal attempt to demolish the opposition party (that opposition party which struggles to define what it really is and what it really wants). This Progressive/Left Monster is highly skilled and in this sense highly prepared for the battle that it has prepared for now for many years. These are the people who came onto the scene largely as a result of the Obama presidency. These people are, and I say this without exaggeration, Saul Alinsky-type radicals. They came onto the scene having been formed by these revolutionary ideals and with all that ideological zealotry, but they realized that in claiming power they'd have to 'dress themselves' as it were in the form of patriotic Americanism. These people are qualified and trained social scientists, first-rate lawyers deeply associated with government, cultural engineers, career intelligence people, experts at public relations and propaganda, and people deeply coopted into a system whose end is a restructuring of America and a replacement of Old America by a New America. This is their language. And you can SEE IT as it is being installed. Literally, these people will stop at nothing. They are highly duplicitous and they are, by definition, liars of the first order.
• Idea Wars are going on and are on-going. But ideas must be clarified not left diffuse. This will either be done or it will not be done. The consequences of not doing (it) is surrender to the régime to which I refer. But at this point defining what the counter-régime is and can be -- that has not been clarified. But I suggest that these things will be and can be clarified as events go forward.

 

[ataraxia]

You strongly feel that Trump attempted to rig the election.

I strongly feel that theDNC has sucessfully rigged the election.

How about all such claims are fully, openly, investigated so that we can both understand the situation?

This has all already been fully investigated.

The FBI, The Department of Homeland Security, all the election poll watchers, including the GOP poll watchers, GOP governors, mayors, police chiefs, the judges from states all over the country, and the Supreme Court of the United States all say my feelings are right and yours are wrong.

Like climate change science and Obama's secret birth certificate, there is no evidence anyone could ever present that would convince you otherwise, however.