How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as Muc

[AdamT]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

The US car companies are bad off because of the following.

Lack of innovation due to lack of real regulation. In Europe car companies have been forced to innovate to meet harsher and harsher environmental standards much to the displeasure of the industry. So when the oil price spiked as it has, most Europeans did not feel the pain in the same way as Americans since our cars could run twice as long on a gallon. This also meant that when American's wanted fuel efficient cars, then they did not go to GM or Chrysler..

I don't think it was environmental regulations. In fact, most European cars have to be modified when imported into the US to meet the stricter California pollution requirements. I think what it came down to was fewer oil subsidies and higher oil taxes in Europe, which increased demand for more efficient cars. Also, the narrower European roads and lack of parking encouraged smaller cars.

 

[Mason66]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

According to Wiki the first abs was used on French planes in the 1930's and on the road, a British motorcycle, in 1958.

"... Chrysler, together with the Bendix Corporation, introduced a computerized, three-channel, four-sensor all-wheel[4] ABS called "Sure Brake" for its 1971 Imperial.[5] It was available for several years thereafter, functioned as intended, and proved reliable. In 1970, Ford added a antilock braking system called "Sure-track" to the rear wheels of Lincoln Continentals as an option[6](it became standard in 1971)h[7]. In 1971, General Motors introduced the "Trackmaster" rear-wheel only[8] ABS as an option on their Rear-wheel drive Cadillac models[9][10][11] and the OldsmobileToronado.[12] In the same year, Nissan offered an EAL (Electro Anti-lock System) as an option on the Nissan President, which became Japan's first electronic ABS.[13]..."

I think the words "as an option" are very important because I have had a lot and I mean a lot of '70's Cadillacas and none of them have ever had any kind of ABS on them. The odd thing about the paragraph is they say Cadillac put it on their rear-drive models but Oldsmobile had it on their front-drive model, which of course was the same as Cadillacs front-drive model.

 

[AdamT]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

There are multiple reasons for the failure of the US auto industry. A huge one, as someone mentioned above, was the legacy cost of employer health care -- something that Germany does not have to worry about. That was the number one factor that drove GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy. More generally, though, the problem was the hostile relationship between labor and management. Unlike Germany, where the two sides work together to improve productivity and working conditions, the two sides in the US have always been at each others' throats, trying to extract as many concessions as possible. In the 50s and 60s, when there was little competition, the big three made major concessions to the union that would come back to haunt them. That was a result of short-term thinking; they wanted to maximize profits now in order to boost profits, so they shifted costs to the future by paying lower wages but higher long-term benefits. They also made concessions that made it very difficult for them to adjust capacity to demand (paying laid off workers near full scale just to sit around and do crossword puzzles). And of course management simply made too many cars that people didn't want to buy -- a result of far too much committee-think and layer upon layer of management.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

Please explain the cylinder deactivation from the '60s. The first car I remember it being tried on was the '81 line and it was a miserable failure.

It was in development, my bad. They were developing it and tried it sometime around WWII, and then "unleashed" it in the early 80s across their line. Fuel injection was what they brought out in the 60s...them and corvette. While the 8-6-4 motor might not be remembered as a success for the time, most new technologies are not. I mean, I could call the first cars miserable failures, too, in that they were slower than horses, less reliable than horses, didn't last as long as horses, costed more than horses, and couldn't go as far as horses. That, in no way, diminishes the accomplishment of the invention, though.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

According to Wiki the first abs was used on French planes in the 1930's and on the road, a British motorcycle, in 1958.

"... Chrysler, together with the Bendix Corporation, introduced a computerized, three-channel, four-sensor all-wheel[4] ABS called "Sure Brake" for its 1971 Imperial.[5] It was available for several years thereafter, functioned as intended, and proved reliable. In 1970, Ford added a antilock braking system called "Sure-track" to the rear wheels of Lincoln Continentals as an option[6](it became standard in 1971)h[7]. In 1971, General Motors introduced the "Trackmaster" rear-wheel only[8] ABS as an option on their Rear-wheel drive Cadillac models[9][10][11] and the OldsmobileToronado.[12] In the same year, Nissan offered an EAL (Electro Anti-lock System) as an option on the Nissan President, which became Japan's first electronic ABS.[13]..."

I guess I gotta be more specific. The 1920s french invention, and that used on the motorcylce, utilized something like a flywheel, and LSD, to enact the ABS system. Caddy was cutting edge because it was electronic.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

I don't think it was environmental regulations. In fact, most European cars have to be modified when imported into the US to meet the stricter California pollution requirements. I think what it came down to was fewer oil subsidies and higher oil taxes in Europe, which increased demand for more efficient cars. Also, the narrower European roads and lack of parking encouraged smaller cars.

Yup. If american's had been paying 4 bucks a gallon at the pumps in the 80s, and on, you bet your bottom dollar we'd be driving diesels here too.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

The only reason why I'm so addamant in this thread is because I am sick and tired of seeing folks talk about how crappy american cars are. The thing is, you gotta realize that you get what you pay for. Chevy, Ford...heck, even Dodge (maybe) DO make quality cars. But most americans buy cheaper models. For good reason. Most of us can't afford to spend 40K on a car, or MORE. So, since that is what they are selling, that is what they're gonna make. And the big three seem to have adopted the idea of giving americans HIGH quality in some areas, but in order to keep final cost to the customer down, they cut corners in other areas...namely, interior, and in some cases, over all design. People talk about reliability, and maybe that was a case in the 70s and 80s...I don't know. But I DO know that today, all these cars are more or less the same, in terms of reliability...it has more to do with how well you maintain your car. BMW and Mercedes can claim uber reliability numbers because, when you buy a new car from them, they give you free maintenance for the first 100K miles, or something like that. Stuff as simple as changing the oil every 5K mile, or whatever the manufacturer suggests, goes a LONG way towards the life of your car. Most folks now days couldn't point me to the dip stick of their car if their freaking lives depended on it, yet they want to bemoan their automotive problems, and place the blame on GMC, or Ford. I've got a 76' vette that still runs strong, with 178K miles on the clock, most of which involved a very heavy foot. Sure, I've had to do some work to it, but the motor runs as strong as the day she was bought. Obviously, after over 30 years, SOME thins needed to be replaced...but for the most part, that car is in fine working order, with NO major surgery required. From a CORVETTE, HARDLY the poster child for automotive reliability, if you believe the talk.

That's all. Just stop talking **** about the cars we make. I can fling just as much poo on Japanese cars, German cars, French cars, British cars, you name it.

 

[AdamT]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

The only reason why I'm so addamant in this thread is because I am sick and tired of seeing folks talk about how crappy american cars are. The thing is, you gotta realize that you get what you pay for. Chevy, Ford...heck, even Dodge (maybe) DO make quality cars. But most americans buy cheaper models. For good reason. Most of us can't afford to spend 40K on a car, or MORE. So, since that is what they are selling, that is what they're gonna make. And the big three seem to have adopted the idea of giving americans HIGH quality in some areas, but in order to keep final cost to the customer down, they cut corners in other areas...namely, interior, and in some cases, over all design. People talk about reliability, and maybe that was a case in the 70s and 80s...I don't know. But I DO know that today, all these cars are more or less the same, in terms of reliability...it has more to do with how well you maintain your car. BMW and Mercedes can claim uber reliability numbers because, when you buy a new car from them, they give you free maintenance for the first 100K miles, or something like that. Stuff as simple as changing the oil every 5K mile, or whatever the manufacturer suggests, goes a LONG way towards the life of your car. Most folks now days couldn't point me to the dip stick of their car if their freaking lives depended on it, yet they want to bemoan their automotive problems, and place the blame on GMC, or Ford. I've got a 76' vette that still runs strong, with 178K miles on the clock, most of which involved a very heavy foot. Sure, I've had to do some work to it, but the motor runs as strong as the day she was bought. Obviously, after over 30 years, SOME thins needed to be replaced...but for the most part, that car is in fine working order, with NO major surgery required. From a CORVETTE, HARDLY the poster child for automotive reliability, if you believe the talk.

That's all. Just stop talking **** about the cars we make. I can fling just as much poo on Japanese cars, German cars, French cars, British cars, you name it.

I agree that American cars today or as safe and reliable as foreign counterparts. That certainly wasn't the case in the 80s and 90s. I think the big three have finally got their act together and will be successful going forward. They'll never be as dominant in the U.S. as they once were, simply because there's more competition, but they will make up for it by expanding overseas.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

I agree that American cars today or as safe and reliable as foreign counterparts. That certainly wasn't the case in the 80s and 90s. I think the big three have finally got their act together and will be successful going forward. They'll never be as dominant in the U.S. as they once were, simply because there's more competition, but they will make up for it by expanding overseas.

I made the mistake of trading a reliable '90 Accord that was approaching 200 K miles for a new '00 Impala. What a piece of crap. The people who bought the old Honda drove it farther and with fewer problems than I had with the new Chevy.

Plus, the Honda was made in the USA, and the Impala wasn't.

Oh, and someone posted about buying cheap cars, which the Impala was not.

If too many more Americans had similar experiences, that was a part of the demise of GM.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

I guess I gotta be more specific. The 1920s french invention, and that used on the motorcylce, utilized something like a flywheel, and LSD, to enact the ABS system. Caddy was cutting edge because it was electronic.

But the ABS was really just a psychedelic dream

(sorry, as a child of the '60s, I couldn't resist that one)

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

But the ABS was really just a psychedelic dream

(sorry, as a child of the '60s, I couldn't resist that one)

I use that a lot when I say LSD (limited slip diff) too.

 

[poweRob]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

I agree that American cars today or as safe and reliable as foreign counterparts. That certainly wasn't the case in the 80s and 90s. I think the big three have finally got their act together and will be successful going forward. They'll never be as dominant in the U.S. as they once were, simply because there's more competition, but they will make up for it by expanding overseas.

Not with the WTO in place and other free trade polices. For some reason, our "free-trade" laws bind us but not who we trade with.

China imposes tariff on US car imports​

 

[RDS]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

The only reason why I'm so addamant in this thread is because I am sick and tired of seeing folks talk about how crappy american cars are. The thing is, you gotta realize that you get what you pay for. Chevy, Ford...heck, even Dodge (maybe) DO make quality cars. But most americans buy cheaper models. For good reason. Most of us can't afford to spend 40K on a car, or MORE. So, since that is what they are selling, that is what they're gonna make. And the big three seem to have adopted the idea of giving americans HIGH quality in some areas, but in order to keep final cost to the customer down, they cut corners in other areas...namely, interior, and in some cases, over all design. People talk about reliability, and maybe that was a case in the 70s and 80s...I don't know. But I DO know that today, all these cars are more or less the same, in terms of reliability...it has more to do with how well you maintain your car. BMW and Mercedes can claim uber reliability numbers because, when you buy a new car from them, they give you free maintenance for the first 100K miles, or something like that. Stuff as simple as changing the oil every 5K mile, or whatever the manufacturer suggests, goes a LONG way towards the life of your car. Most folks now days couldn't point me to the dip stick of their car if their freaking lives depended on it, yet they want to bemoan their automotive problems, and place the blame on GMC, or Ford. I've got a 76' vette that still runs strong, with 178K miles on the clock, most of which involved a very heavy foot. Sure, I've had to do some work to it, but the motor runs as strong as the day she was bought. Obviously, after over 30 years, SOME thins needed to be replaced...but for the most part, that car is in fine working order, with NO major surgery required. From a CORVETTE, HARDLY the poster child for automotive reliability, if you believe the talk.

That's all. Just stop talking **** about the cars we make. I can fling just as much poo on Japanese cars, German cars, French cars, British cars, you name it.

Where are all the American cars?

What The Rich People Really Drive

But what that analysis also told me was that 61 percent of people who earn $250,000 or more aren’t buying luxury brands at all. They’re buying the same Toyotas, Hondas and Fords as the rest of us. So what cars are preferred by the rich?

Luxury models led the list of the 10 most popular cars for people earning over $250,000: The Mercedes E-class, Lexus RX 350, BMW 5 Series and 3 Series had the top four spots. But most surprising is the cars that rounded out the top 10: Three Hondas, a Toyota, an Acura and a Volkswagen. Not a single domestic vehicle in the bunch, though Cadillac has at least grown in popularity among the rich for the past two years.

What The Rich People Really Drive - Forbes

 

[Diving Mullah]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

The expensive Mercedes and BMW that you see here are actually made/assembled in US.

In Germany that are many lowend Mercedes geared for the middle class and the average family.

Average factory worker in Germany gets paid much higher salary, for one thing... stronger union, secondly the company does not have to bother with Medical bills which is the largest overhead for any company in US.

For example at my company our Medical insurance increased by 30% this year, simply because we had lot higher claims than normal and shareholders wanted their dividend. Of course the years that we have lower claims, the premiums did not go down)...Go figure.

Anywho, This the same argument that many have been making... If you have strong middle class you will have strong economy, if you divert the wealth form middle class to wealthy, the economy and manufacturing suffers.

Because after all its the middle and lower class who are the real job creators, simple economy 101...Demand and supply!

Diving Mullah

 

[RDS]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

The expensive Mercedes and BMW that you see here are actually made/assembled in US.

In Germany that are many lowend Mercedes geared for the middle class and the average family.

Average factory worker in Germany gets paid much higher salary, for one thing... stronger union, secondly the company does not have to bother with Medical bills which is the largest overhead for any company in US.

For example at my company our Medical insurance increased by 30% this year, simply because we had lot higher claims than normal and shareholders wanted their dividend. Of course the years that we have lower claims, the premiums did not go down)...Go figure.

Anywho, This the same argument that many have been making... If you have strong middle class you will have strong economy, if you divert the wealth form middle class to wealthy, the economy and manufacturing suffers.

Because after all its the middle and lower class who are the real job creators, simple economy 101...Demand and supply!

Diving Mullah

Why are the medical bills the largest overheads for US companies? Makes the US less competitive compared to Germany and Japan.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

Why are the medical bills the largest overheads for US companies? Makes the US less competitive compared to Germany and Japan.

The reasons for high medical insurance bills are obvious, and yes, it makes us less competitive compared to a lot of other countries.

We have the most expensive medical system in the world, and the employers pay the tab for their employees.

 

[1Perry]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

Most accidents happen between two moving objects and not one car hitting a wall.

The Smart car weighs nothing so it will be knocked around all over the place causing secondary damage and injuries.

I would not want to be driving one at any speed at all.

Go to any video of an accident and replace one of the cars with a smart and imagine what would happen to the people or person inside.

I ride a motorcycle when I can. Driving a Smart car wouldn't phase me in the slightest.

 

[RDS]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

The reasons for high medical insurance bills are obvious, and yes, it makes us less competitive compared to a lot of other countries.

We have the most expensive medical system in the world, and the employers pay the tab for their employees.

U.S. ranks #1 for obesity. Maybe cut down on the obesity and healthcare costs will plunge.

 

[Mason66]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

U.S. ranks #1 for obesity. Maybe cut down on the obesity and healthcare costs will plunge.

Lawyers are the reason health care is so expensive.

I was in a private hospital for a week back in 2002 recovering from a disease here in Mexico with a private room and the bill was $13,000 pesos with the exchange rate at around 10 at the time, that was about $1300.00 USD for the week. I got excellent service plus food and anything else I needed. I had to pay my doctor seperately which was like $3000.00 pesos for his care for the week.

How much is a private hospital room in the US per day with no extras?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

So, we need to get rid of all the fat lawyers.

 

[imagep]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

So, we need to get rid of all the fat lawyers.

It's neither obesity or lawyers, although both of those contribute to it.

It's the $20 copay. It eleminates the need for patients to shop, which eleminates the need for doctors to be price competitive.

 

[Diving Mullah]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

It's neither obesity or lawyers, although both of those contribute to it.

It's the $20 copay. It eleminates the need for patients to shop, which eleminates the need for doctors to be price competitive.

That is one explanation!

Or... maybe that fact that 3 out of 7 dollars patients spend goes to the pocket of the HMO share holders and 1 in the pocket of CEO. Not to mention 53% of the perineum you pay is for administration cost, compared to say ... Medicare with is less than 5%.

That or the $20 copay and lack of shopping around.... So hard to decide which is the bigger culprit!

Diving Mullah

 

[Mason66]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

That is one explanation!

Or... maybe that fact that 3 out of 7 dollars patients spend goes to the pocket of the HMO share holders and 1 in the pocket of CEO. Not to mention 53% of the perineum you pay is for administration cost, compared to say ... Medicare with is less than 5%.

That or the $20 copay and lack of shopping around.... So hard to decide which is the bigger culprit!

Diving Mullah

That is why you think medical costs are so high?

The cost of medical mal-practice cost is why an asprin costs $7.00. Doctors have to conduct test after test to cover their butts just in case they missed something to not get sued.

What do your think would happen if there were no share holders and no CEOs?

By the way we were not talking specifically HMOs. We were talking about medical costs in general.

 

[Diving Mullah]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

Medical mal -practice suits contribution to "high medical" cost 0.9%!


Next!?!

Diving Mullah

 

[Mason66]

Re: How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the US While Paying Its Workers Twice as

Medical mal -practice suits contribution to "high medical" cost 0.9%!


Next!?!

Diving Mullah

I didn't say suits, I said premiums.