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How Does One Become Liberal?

How does One become Liberal?

  • Influenced by liberal parents

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • Born with too many pacifist genes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Nested with parent into 30's, thus never paying taxes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lost self confidence watching televised war movies

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Raised in socialist enviornment, i.e. Harvard Square, Cambridge

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • Worked in Unions foregoing the chance to be independent and self motivating

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • C-words like Constructive, Compassionate, Conservativism and Capitalism scared them

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Found more solace in paganism/sectarianism then in Jesus Christ

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • All of the Above

    Votes: 6 23.1%
  • Other....let me explain

    Votes: 14 53.8%

  • Total voters
    26
It has nothing to do with sides. It has to do with morallity. It is never wrong to address a brutal dictator and intervene on behalf of human suffering. To state that it is wrong as you just did reveals much. There is no amount of excuses one can conjure up to cloud the issue. One may pretend to hide behind some superior notion that international law trumps the suffering such laws enforce, but he is merely hiding fomr his humanity. Political partisanship and the attitude that "we haven't the right to intervene" is cowardice. Ever heard the quote "all that is need for evil men to prosper is for good men to do nothing?" Well, Saddam prospered and until 2003, and we had done nothing.

I disagree with your lawless views which is essentially the strongest should make the rules and decisions about what is right or proper. That rule sounds great if you are the big bully, not to anyone else.

It is simply wrong for one nation to attack another simply because it dislikes the government it has.

This "holier-than-thou" atittude is a smokescreen anyway. The Bush administration did not invade Iraq to free the poor Iraqis from a dictatorship and that is not why we are there now. It is an after the fact justification the neocons pound away because everything esle they said was bullshit too. Saddam wasn't "prospering" in Iraq, he was a contained and powerless two bit dictator, who ironically was the *last* government we should have deposed if our goal was to fight Islamic fundamentalism.

Sorry. Not buying your false morality, even if I did think you had the right to impose it upon others.
 
I disagree with your lawless views which is essentially the strongest should make the rules and decisions about what is right or proper. That rule sounds great if you are the big bully, not to anyone else.

It is simply wrong for one nation to attack another simply because it dislikes the government it has.

Oh..no...no...no. Let's not run from the issue and escape into the normal BS you find comfort in. We aren't discussing our dislike on how Russia runs it country. We are addressing the suffering and massacre of people through dictator brutality. Are you able to address this without the normal ducking?

And nobody said anything about "lawlessness." The international laws which are enforced by a UN that is made up of Russia, China, Germany, and France, do not have humanity and human rights in mind. The laws that exist today serve the dictator. And these are the laws that you wish to shape our world?

So you are disagreeing with a fantasy of what you thought I said. No more ducking, Iriemon.
 
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I dont think you can "become" a liberal. Either you agree with the viewpoints most people have or you dont. It's really that simple. Liberal and Conservative are just words people associate themselves with so that they dont feel left out. I'm conservative when it comes to terrorists and illegal aliens. I think we should put a wall of guns across border we have with Mexico and use them for a live game of space invaders and well the terrorists use them to test the effects of nuclear warfare on humans. However I'm very liberal when it comes to the rights of women and homosexuals. I believe that people have to choose their path and then deal with the consequences later if they believe in a higher being. It's too easy to just go out and say "Oh I'm a liberal" You can't possibly agree with everything liberal. I have no problem with animals rights/PETA. As far as giving up my daily injection of beef. Thats a different story.

An now my follow up on the Political Jungle post :

How to become a conservative:

On a bright and shinny day wait for the giant butterfly to fly by and drop the crystal tears of the rose princess on your forehead. Once the tear lands on you, you'll start feeling sugar then spice and then eventually everything nice.
 
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Oh..no...no...no. Let's not run from the issue and escape into the normal BS you find comfort in. We aren't discussing our dislike on how Russia runs it country. We are addressing the suffering and massacre of people through dictator brutality. Are you able to address this without the normal ducking?

Russia? Where did that come from?

If there was any massacring of people in 2003 you'd have a point. The last massacre that I've heard of in Iraq was when Hussein put down the CIA inspired insurgencies in 1991. Hussein "took the gloves off" to do that, like you keep saying we should be doing. He hung for it.

And nobody said anything about "lawlessness." The international laws which are enforced by a UN that is made up of Russia, China, Germany, and France, do not have humanity and human rights in mind. The laws that exist today serve the dictator. And these are the laws that you wish to shape our world?

You are being completely contradictory. You say it is not lawlessness, but in the same breath say that the laws are invalid because Russia, China, Germany, and France do not agree with your views. In other words, you throw laws out the windows when others disagree with you.

That is lawlessness.

Since you brought up ducking, how come you didn't address this question based on your theory of international relations:

Who makes the determination that one government is not proper? The US because it is the biggest power? Because it is strong enough to bully other nations?

So you are disagreeing with a fantasy. No more ducking, Iriemon.

I have ducked nothing. I believe in the rule of law both nationally and internationally and I believe they should be followed and respected, both because it is the right way to conduct relations between people and nationas and because ultimatley it is bar far the most successful way.

I have stated my principle, and I defend it.
 
simply because it dislikes the government it has. - Iriemon

Man, it is NOT simply because we dislike the government and you know it.
 
Russia? Where did that come from?

Its a government we don't like. I could have used China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. My point was that trivializing it into an issue where we only invaded because we didn't approve of Saddam's government is not honest.

If there was any massacring of people in 2003 you'd have a point. The last massacre that I've heard of in Iraq was when Hussein put down the CIA inspired insurgencies in 1991.

So a massacre over a decade ago is it? No mention of the continual systematic torture and abuse? No mention of the mass graves that were dug through the 90's found in numerous outskirts of Shi'ite towns? No word of the dead due to UN sanctioned corruption that was only ended when America decided to intervene? Saddam's history of slaughter instilled in the world a sense that his brutality was at an end? And what of the brutality of his sons who were next in line to the throne?

Massacre has an expiration date?


Hussein "took the gloves off" to do that, like you keep saying we should be doing. He hung for it.

Still can't quite grasp the meaning.

You are being completely contradictory. You say it is not lawlessness, but in the same breath say that the laws are invalid because Russia, China, Germany, and France do not agree with your views. In other words, you throw laws out the windows when others disagree with you.

That is lawlessness.

It is lawless to state that the laws of the day are inadequate? From this you immediately choose for a way to argue instead of acknowledging common sense and assuming that we need new laws? Where's the contradiction?

And my views of what the basic human rights of others should be is wrong? This basic definition of what all people deserve is too alien for you? Isn't it your quest to remain fixed in concrete about the suffering of others not being the world's business? International law protects the tyrant. There is nothing moral about obeying laws such as these.




Since you brought up ducking, how come you didn't address this question based on your theory of international relations:

Who makes the determination that one government is not proper? The US because it is the biggest power? Because it is strong enough to bully other nations?

Human decency dictates what is and is not proper. Get your head out of the clouds and try it sometime. Do you not posses the ability to look at suffering and declare it wrong? Do you not possess the ability to look at a subjugated woman and declare it wrong? When did Liberalism become such weakness?

This is where you seem to fall off everytime. You don't seem to have the capacity to reflect on the issues honestly. The world is full of governments that do not treat their people as we would like them to. This does not mean that we have the right to dictate to them the kind of freedom their people should have. Nor is this happening. But you seem to have this insatiable need to define the whole with a single example of what we did in Iraq. Are we forcing the governments around the world to bow to us? Are we "bullying" China and Russia? How about Iran? Is our "bullying" wrong as the entire free world stands behind us with regards to Ahmenadejad and Kimm II? Or does your needs to define "bullying" only come into play when it is convenient? And what about Iraq? Are we forcing them into what the Sunni wish to prescribe? The truth is that many cultures define freedom differently and they are quite comfortable with restrictions. We must maintain trades and economic growth with these countries, but we have to be careful about how easy it is for people such as yourself to declare the evil Americans as supporters of dictators. And we have to accept that democracy in some of these places will see the rise of a zealot regime. There is a difference between a Muslim fundamentalist and an Islamic terrorist. The fundamentalists may never be our friend, but he need not be our enemy.

But, "bullying" men like Saddam Hussein is exactly what we need to be doing. Protecting him through UN laws and turning our backs on Muslim suffering for sweetened oil deals has been our mistake. It's time to fix it.





I have ducked nothing. I believe in the rule of law both nationally and internationally and I believe they should be followed and respected, both because it is the right way to conduct relations between people and nationas and because ultimatley it is bar far the most successful way.

I have stated my principle, and I defend it.

You defend the approval of human suffering. You defend the approval of countries like China and Russia to dictate to the world through the UN what is and is not acceptable amongst humanity. And we all know how approving they are of the basic human rights and deceny in their own countries. Let's not pretend you stand on a pedestal. You defend the preservation of tyranny under international law. You just don't want to face it.
 
simply because it dislikes the government it has. - Iriemon

Man, it is NOT simply because we dislike the government and you know it.

I agree. I think the fact Iraq is in a strategic location and one of the largest oil producers had a lot to do with it. I think "get-tough" politics post 9-11 was part of it, arrogance and even a bit of personal vendetta.
 
simply because it dislikes the government it has. - Iriemon

Man, it is NOT simply because we dislike the government and you know it.

He'll never admit it. It would allow him to soften up his hatred for an administration he doesn't approve of. There's also the false image of "Liberal" superiority being passed off around the globe that needs protected.
 
I agree. I think the fact Iraq is in a strategic location and one of the largest oil producers had a lot to do with it. I think "get-tough" politics post 9-11 was part of it, arrogance and even a bit of personal vendetta.


But, of course, not the human suffering aspect and the needs of the Middle East to change. Such things would mean a harder look at oneself I guess.

What has become obvious to me is the difference in our posts. I have posted enough times on exactly what you stated above as being a part of this effort. However, you have continually denied the human suffering aspect and what Iraq's success can bring to the Middle East with regards to religious terrorism.

The is pessimism at its best.
 
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By GySgt
There's also the false image of "Liberal" superiority being passed off around the globe that needs protected.

I am tired of this new propoganda. It is left wing PC crap. Liberals are better educated. Liberals have better values. Liberals understand what humanity needs and you don't nah nah nah, it is boring and childish and most importantly it is HYPOCRITICAL.
 
By Iriemon
I agree. I think the fact Iraq is in a strategic location and one of the largest oil producers had a lot to do with it. I think "get-tough" politics post 9-11 was part of it, arrogance and even a bit of personal vendetta.

I am not sure about the "V" for Vendetta. :lol:

Arrogance? Maybe by some, but arrogance is not a bad thing if you also doing the right thing.

Get Tough Politics? Yep. Sure. Why not? Who else is going to do the dirty work? Chavez? Hell, he is buddies with the new Iranian Hitler. Europe? Unless we are pulling them along, they don't do anything but complain, and they complain that nothing is being done, so what does that make them? Hypocrites.

Strategic Location? Yeah, Location Location Location. The only three words you need to know in Real Estate.

Oil? I do think that this is a part of it, yes.
 
Its a government we don't like. I could have used China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. My point was that trivializing it into an issue where we only invaded because we didn't approve of Saddam's government is not honest.

I agree. Writing these posts we summarize and that was the aspect we were discussing.

So a massacre over a decade ago is it? No mention of the continual systematic torture and abuse? No mention of the mass graves that were dug through the 90's found in numerous outskirts of Shi'ite towns? No word of the dead due to UN sanctioned corruption that was only ended when America decided to intervene? Saddam's history of slaughter instilled in the world a sense that his brutality was at an end? And what of the brutality of his sons who were next in line to the throne?

In my research on the subject, the credible reports I've read have not indicated massacres after 1991. If you have sources to the contrary, I will consider them.

Massacre has an expiration date?

Of course! How can you say you are invading to stop a massacre if it last occured 12 years ago?

It is lawless to state that the laws of the day are inadequate? From this you immediately choose for a way to argue instead of acknowledging common sense and assuming that we need new laws? Where's the contradiction?

In a lawful society, if you think the law is inadequate, you change the law. You don't just ignore tham.

And my views of what the basic human rights of others should be is wrong? This basic definition of what all people deserve is too alien for you? Isn't it your quest to remain fixed in concrete about the suffering of others not being the world's business? International law protects the tyrant. There is nothing moral about obeying laws such as these.

To be honest with your Sarge, yes, I think your views of basic human rights of others are wrong, when you say things like "Such is war" when refernced to the destruction and deaths of scores or hundreds of thousands. Or when you talk about the Carthage solution. Yes, I think your views of basic human rights are wrong.

Iriemon: Who makes the determination that one government is not proper? The US because it is the biggest power? Because it is strong enough to bully other nations?

Human decency dictates what is and is not proper. Get your head out of the clouds and try it sometime. Do you not posses the ability to look at suffering and declare it wrong? Do you not possess the ability to look at a subjugated woman and declare it wrong? When did Liberalism become such weakness?

Humany decency? Human decency says it is proper to bomb the crap out of a country and start a war in a nation that has thrown it into civil war and caused the deaths of scores or hundreds of thousands? Human decency? What the hell is decent about that.

Who decides whether human decency dictates that something is and is not proper. You? Me? The pope? The American Government?

This is where you seem to fall off everytime. You don't seem to have the capacity to reflect on the issues honestly. The world is full of governments that do not treat their people as we would like them to. This does not mean that we have the right to dictate to them the kind of freedom their people should have.

Right!

Nor is this happening.

I thought that is what you have been arguing why we are right to be in Iraq?

But you seem to have this insatiable need to define the whole with a single example of what we did in Iraq. Are we forcing the governments around the world to bow to us? Are we "bullying" China and Russia?

Hell no! Bullies don't pick on others that might be able to hit them back. Most bullies are really cowards.

How about Iran? Is our "bullying" wrong as the entire free world stands behind us with regards to Ahmenadejad and Kimm II?

So far we have not attacked Iran or North Korea

Or does your needs to define "bullying" only come into play when it is convenient?

You tell me.

And what about Iraq? Are we forcing them into what the Sunni wish to prescribe? The truth is that many cultures define freedom differently and they are quite comfortable with restrictions. We must maintain trades and economic growth with these countries, but we have to be careful about how easy it is for people such as yourself to declare the evil Americans as supporters of dictators.

I have never said we should support dictators. Simply because I do not think our country has the right to invade another country just because it has a dictatorship doesn't mean I support them.

Are you proposing the USi invade Iran, North Korea, China? Do you support those dictatorships?

Ad we have to accept that democracy in some of these places will see the rise of a zealot regime. There is a difference between a Muslim fundamentalist and an Islamic terrorist. The fundamentalists may never be our friend, but he need not be our enemy.

I agree. The terrorists need not be our enemy, if he decides not to be a terrorist.

But, "bullying" men like Saddam Hussein is exactly what we need to be doing. Protecting him through UN laws and turning our backs on Muslim suffering for sweetened oil deals has been our mistake. It's time to fix it.

No one was protecting him. No one was calling for US troops to land in Baghdad to support his government.

But one nation does not have the right to invade another and depose their government just because it disapproves of it.







You defend the approval of human suffering. You defend the approval of countries like China and Russia to dictate to the world through the UN what is and is not acceptable amongst humanity. And we all know how approving they are of the basic human rights and deceny in their own countries. Let's not pretend you stand on a pedestal. You defend the preservation of tyranny under international law. You just don't want to face it.[/QUOTE]
 
But one nation does not have the right to invade another and depose their government just because it disapproves of it.

I thought that we just covered this. Of course they do. But the point is, that this was not a reason that the US engaged in the War on Terror nor attacked Iraq.
 
But one nation does not have the right to invade another and depose their government just because it disapproves of it.

I thought that we just covered this. Of course they do.

Might makes right? Germany had the right to invade Poland? The SU had the right to invade Hungary, Czeckoslavakia, and Poland?
 
Might makes right? Germany had the right to invade Poland? The SU had the right to invade Hungary, Czeckoslavakia, and Poland?

There is such a thing as good and bad. We happen to, for the most part, be good. Much better than Germany or the USSR were. You know that though.

Those nations were benign and non-threatening. You are comparing Hitler to us when the comparison should be Hitler to Saddam. That at least would be a comparison that I wouldn't laugh at.
 
There is such a thing as good and bad. We happen to, for the most part, be good. Much better than Germany or the USSR were. You know that though.

I know what is good and bad. Problem is, you-all don't. ;)

I agree there is good and bad. But it is not always so clear. The problem comes in with who decides that issue.

One may say that invading Iraq to remove a dictator is good.

Another might say that causing scores of thousands of death and civil war is bad. The first one might not think that is so bad and say something like "such is war".

But who is he to decide?

So is invading a country good or bad? Who should decide that question? You? Me? GySgt? Bush? The USA? The Pope? Why?

Those nations were benign and non-threatening. You are comparing Hitler to us when the comparison should be Hitler to Saddam. That at least would be a comparison that I wouldn't laugh at.

More accurately, I am comparing the Nazis justifying invading Poland on pretext with the Bush administration justifying invading Iraq on pretext. I certainly agree that on most things, Hussein was more like Hitler than the US. But in terms of the invading other countries based on pretext, that was the kind of thing the Nazis did.
 
So is invading a country good or bad? Who should decide that question? You? Me? GySgt? Bush? The USA? The Pope? Why?

Thanks for clarifying. It is confusing. I trust most Western Democratic nations to dothe right thing much more than I trust two-bit dictators and oppressive communist like nations.

The Nazi's didnt invade on pretext of anything other than greed. Trying to incorporate German people was their best worst argument regarding aggression. I don't think that this is a legitimate comparison at all.

I
know what is good and bad. Problem is, you-all don't.

I know you do ;)
 
People start out ignorant, unthinking, and hysterical, hence liberal. Then they get some experience, hence, some wisdom, and gradually become conservatives.

There are people who don't become more conservative with experience, but they are the exception, and generally turn out to be people who can't be taught.
 
People start out ignorant, unthinking, and hysterical, hence liberal. Then they get some experience, hence, some wisdom, and gradually become conservatives.

Or you can always drink the blood of a conservative child who has yet to be molested by his pastor. My way works alot faster.

Cue the "Twilight Zone" music please.

Way to fall into the "Liberals are stupid and Conservatives are genius" trend.
 
People start out ignorant, unthinking, and hysterical, hence liberal. Then they get some experience, hence, some wisdom, and gradually become conservatives.

There are people who don't become more conservative with experience, but they are the exception, and generally turn out to be people who can't be taught.

And then there are lying rabid partisan hacks as exemplified by the above post...
 
Thanks for clarifying. It is confusing. I trust most Western Democratic nations to dothe right thing much more than I trust two-bit dictators and oppressive communist like nations.

I do too.

The Nazi's didnt invade on pretext of anything other than greed. Trying to incorporate German people was their best worst argument regarding aggression. I don't think that this is a legitimate comparison at all.

Fair enough, and I certainly agree that it is not a very congruent comparison. I only brought it up a analogy in response to GySgt's claim that people who object to the invasion of Iraq are the "decendents" of people who tried to prevent war with Germany.
 
People start out ignorant, unthinking, and hysterical, hence liberal. Then they get some experience, hence, some wisdom, and gradually become conservatives.

There are people who don't become more conservative with experience, but they are the exception, and generally turn out to be people who can't be taught.

Well thank you for that helpful, insightful, well researched post. I understand much better now.
 
The history of the continent of Europe has stricken Europeans with the fear of too much freedom, of disorder, of rampage. This is why the welfare of the group trumps the needs of the individual. Protests against governments are far more likely to be about group interests than personal freedoms. The closest the U.S. ever came to the restricted European vision of freedom was during the peculiar regimentation of the Depression years and WWII, when the President spoke of freedom from want and from fear. Europeans accept limits on personal achievment in the interests of personal security and the general welfare. Americans believe instinctively that the general welfare is best served by fostering personal achievement. Europe imposes limits on the individual for the common good. We believe that the common good is best served by individual opportunity. Americans (those of us that aren't jaded by traditional acceptance) look at European lives and see their limits. Europeans regard our freedom to succeed as little more that the freedom to fail. Despite the chronic gloom of our domestic intelligentsia, we are the world's optimists. Europeans are pessimists. And even if their pessimism occasionally proves well-founded, it's still the optimists who change the world.

*Loughs*, you speak of European freedom? Yet you seem to know nothing about it.. Europe is far more free than America, it can easily be demonstrated by the fact that in Europe such things as a "patriot act" would be out of the question, simply because no one would accept their freedoms being taken away. Another easily demonstratable example is the wide acceptance and freedom of gambling which is not restricted to certain areas for government gains, also we have freedoms not imagineable in America, in one countries smoking and using "light drugs" are "legal", while in most western European nations smoking marijuana is accepted and will not get you into trouble with the law and make you a criminal.
Europe is free in the fact that we dont live in constant fear, in America the picture is quite the opposit, Americans live in fear, surrounded by fear, brought to them mostly by their own government. I can imagine smoking a joint in America would be a scary thing and might land you years in your well deloped and inhabited PRISON SYSTEM.

Europeans have all the freedoms the Americans have and MUCH MORE, like the freedom of liberal policies, like the freedom to not live in fear, the freedom not to be killed by their own government, the freedoms of not being sureveilance and controlled by the government, and we also have freedom for idiots to be idiots without ending up with a shoppingcart full of their belongings on the streets. Europeans definetely have the freedom to succeed.. Europe and America have 90% of the world billionaires. Europe have 40% of those, America 60%.
As for optimism, that is something that have changed in recent years, Europeans are more optimistic and self certainty than ever, which is why I am certain that Europe will be more powerful than America this coming decade, and that we need to cooperate to prevent an overpowerful China.

Americans are in love with freedom and will fight for it (proven for two centuries). Europeans cherish security, and those who threaten that security may find, to their dismay, that Europeans remain capable of extravangant barbarities when sufficiently provoked. The growing Islamic populations from which religiouos terrorist spring may find a wounded and vengeful future Europe prone to abrupt attrocities. Europe has no track record of behaving humanely under stress. And as we saw in the diplomatic row over Iraq, the leading countries of the old European heartlands care nothing for the freedom or well-being of non European populations. Freedom in Europe has never meant freedom for others. As I've stated before, no German soldier ever liberated anyone. French soldiers keep colonialism alive in western Africa. Dutch soldiers enjoyed the show as Serb militiamen massacred Muslims. And even in the backwater struggles of the Balkans only the U.S. could gaurantee the minimal freedoms of daily life.

How will I start to answer this, there are so many things needed to be commented here. Like America in Iraq, Germans were greeted as heroes when they invaded Austria, but in both countries they soon found the pleasure shortlived in invasion.. The difference is that Austria didnt have a civil war and contant murder at a staggering rate when Germans were there.
As I said, Europe have more freedoms than America, and we cherish that as much as we cherish justice and security.
How can you bring "Iraq into this as if it should be something that Europe would get involved in, if not they dont cherish freedoms for others" as you say. That assesment is totally wrong.. I am not going into this discussion about Iraq(again) but that war was wrong, and Iraq is now in civil war or very close to it, Americans have spent 400 billion just to take away one man, lit the bomb in the middle east, make the world a more insecure place, and make terrorism mainstream among the muslim population.
Terrorism isnt like Nazi Germany, you will not win this, because its not an army..
The European(notably Germany and France) approach was that they KNEW how things would end up in Iraq and choose to stay out, and hey, who was right, Iraq is a massacre and a bloody mess. Your idea that everyone that didnt go to Iraq dont cherish freedom and support terrorism is wrong, a picture effectivly brainwashed into your head by the Bush government, especially Dick Chaney, Donald Rumsfeld and Condolezza Rice, those people are corrupt(and retarded).
Europe has done much more for security the last 20 years, for example we just included eastern Europe in our community of nations, those nations are now democratic and on the way to being successfull free and open market countries. If thats not a MUCH greater archievement than Iraq I dont know.
For all you know with the political instability they had in eastern Europe and their broken economies, the Russians might have exploited that and once again forced those countries into Russian dictatorial rule.
Europes influence is spreading, Northern Africa would be no better than Iran today if not for the European Union, it would all be terrorist muslim states, but now instead they cooperate with the European union under our "neighbourhood" policy that insure that they get a piece of the cake.
The influence is still spreading and will keep spreading, the American influence is already narrowing.

While you may have this great vision of Utopia, created by Liberal EU fantasy, Europe has proven to not have the strength or will to struggle for it. Didn't communism boast the idea of a god not being as important as the promise of a utopia? Of course, the Stalins and the Maos were happy to stand in for vanquished dieties. The promise of Atlantis was hatched by a German and it excused the sacrifice or outright murder of hundreds of millions of human beings. But the cult of German National Socialism was deficient in it's thirst for sacrificial blood as compared to the dark genius of communism. The Nazis could only find enemies outside of the "pure" race. The genius killing machine of Communism (like tha of Islamic fundamentalism) was its ability to find enemies anywhere and everywhere and within. And today we see western Europe traveling the same path. The great EU strives to unite the tribes and strip them of identity to create the perfect society. But as history has taught us, the notion of human perfectibility is lethal. Europe embraced it, as did many of Europe's colonial-era victims later on. There is no power in accepting white European countries into the fold who are willing but denying non-white European countries who are asking. There is no valor in boasting on a future that tyrants have no interest in accepting. How can the EU be anything more than the fragile thing it is today when it doesn't even care about its suffering neighbors?

I dont have a utopian view in the European Union, I have a realistic view, as for Europe being more powerful than America thise century, that is my own certain assesment of how things are developing. When(IF) Europe become a federation, even Americans will realize that this federation is much greater than their own country, and that this federation is far more powerful. But until then as 27 nations, America is more powerful and have more big companies than any of the single nations. Our GDP is €10.9 trillion btw, or 14 trillion $ and growing, comparable to Europe, American GDP is falling.
If measures in current(2005) currency value(not 2000, dollars), Frances economy expanded 46% between 2002-2005, while the UK grew 39% and Germany 35%, and guess what, the US expanded only 19% according to the OECD GDP numbers. Saying Europeans dont care about their neoughbour is just ignoring the facts, when we actually let our neighbour join our community and take advantage of our economy for the good of all, and again, the north Africans and our neighbourhood policy have to be mentioned.

Your comparison of Europeans to German Nazis and Soviet Communists is simply lack of knowledge and outrageous. You own government are more Nazi than any other government in the world, and the supporters of the American republican party are more nazis than any comparable European population.
Your reply is racist and biast towards English speaking people, because in the opinion of English speaking people, English speaking people are "the best", just like Nazi Germans though the "white Germans " were "the best".
 
You ask how many people have America helped through wars or other wise? Though we could go back further, why don't we just focus on the 20th century? How about we start with your ancestors? What is the population of all of Europe? (Of course, we would have to count them twice wouldn't we?) And certainly our parked military in western Germany allowed the rest of Europe to lick it's self inflicted wounds as we faced down the Soviet Union.

You still only see postwar Europe, you lack knowledge on how and what Europe really is and how it is developing.

How about in Asia? South Korea remains seperate from the brutalities of the North. Japan remains under our protection. Taiwan is not a part of China. How about Africa? How about Muslims in Bosnia? (....this would put us back in Europe, by the way). Do we have to go into the tens of millions of Muslims who no longer have to fear Saddam Hussein and his sons?

South Korea is indeed seperate and prosperous, but Korea should be one country, not two artificial countries.. Wouldnt it be much great if both countries joined under South Korean values?

Taiwan is a part of China in almost all ways, and will certainly be an "official part" of China in near future.
Well, Iraqi muslims dont have to fear Saddam Hussein anymore, but they fear US bombs and killings everyday, and many do get killed. Many more get killed everyday now than when Saddam was president.

But, we've heard about this. The unfortunate victims of this effort through our botching of a good deed satisfy the depravity of those who didn't care enough to do anything, yet find great strength in criticizing.

instead of being uncritical about invasions of countries like most countries were when Germany invaded Austria and Chezkoslovakia?
They also certainly lied about the reasons, like the Americans are doing now, and they both had great propaganda machinery.

And what about Africa? Beside the French troops, who have made quite a name for themselves in western Africa for killing unarmed blacks, only American troops stand in Chad and in Djibouti with an intent to train and defend Muslims from the Sudanese turmoil. When was the last time Europe aided Somalia? Was it when the international forces quickly sped home once the UN mandate no longer held them? When the Bush administration announced that it would commit fifteen billion dollars to the fight against AIDS in poor countries, the reaction was to pick at the details of the gift, which is a contribution that remains unmatched by the European Union or any other entity (as far as I know). Why don't we shift over to the Caribbean? Countless Haitians, Cubans, Dominican Republicans, Puerto Ricans, etc. have been the benefit of American action when unrest threatened them through aggression or nature. And Canada? Does it not enjoy a great medicare system at the expense of a defense thanks to our existence? You see, we take care of our back yard and don't rely upon Europeans to cross the ocean. And what about all those natural disasters all over the world? The American military presence and checkbook is always on the scene before the EU grudgingly shows up with the bare minimum or exhonerating "check is in the mail." But, for a better picture of how many lives America keeps secure, one only has to look at our embassy presence. In these countries, freedom from tyranny thrives.

15 billion for AIDS, wow, imagined if he spent the Iraq neo-nazi invasion money on a cure for AIDS instead, then he would be a hero, not a savage, and we probably wouldnt have AIDS that cannot be treated anymore.
Btw, Europeans donate MUCH more money to fight poverty and AIDS than Americans do.

A quote from the article linked in the end of this post.
"The EU gave away $36.5 billion in development aid in 2003. The US managed just one third that amount—and much of that foreign aid either went to Israel or else came with strings attached: nearly 80 percent of all American "development aid" obliges recipients to spend the money on American goods and services."

NationMaster - Statistics > Economic aid > Donor by country

According to this site, which usually favour the US, even the United Kingdom alone give more foreign AID than the US. If you collect all the European countries they give about 10 times more according to this statistic.


Perhaps the more accurate question here is to ask what European inactivity has accomplished in the world? What has the great EU done for humanity? Aside from wrecking the third world and then graciously leaving it behind for someone else to deal with, what hope do the suffering have with regards to what Europe offers? Tyrants, religious zealots, and human monsters have no interest in the comfy rosy world the EU is pretending to power. It's actually Europe's long history, with regards to their leadership, that dictators are counting on for survival and the EU will not dissapoint. Even today, Ahmenadejad reaches out to German society. You see, by finally addressing a mistake of the past and dealing with a festering dictator who took advantage of the corruptness of the UN and continued to snub the world when asked to behave, America has chosen the future. Those that sat out and only have enough strength to criticize our mistakes behind borders that we secured for them, have chosen the past.

OK, Europe had a bad past, United states are having a bad present time. Europe is trying to make things right this time around, while the US is still learning, but by failures. The US is doing now what Europe was doing hundreds of years ago.

Lets see what Europe has done the last 40 years..
-Contributed more in foreign aid the last 10 years than America has done since world war 2.
-Lifted Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Greece out of poverty, made those stable democratic countries.
-Accepted eastern Europe with open arms, lead to their economic boom, is making those countries stable open market democracies, lifting them out of poverty.
(note. he European Neighbourhood Policy applies to the EU's immediate neighbours by land or sea – Algeria, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Egypt, Georgia, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Moldova, Morocco, the Palestinian Authority, Syria, Tunisia and Ukraine.)
-Helped the economies and goverments of mose of these countries remain stable and properous, notably Marocco, Egypt and Algeria..
-Supported the US the last 60 years, no matter how wrong or outragous their policies are, it just seems it was enough with George Bush.
-Supported millions of poor Africans with food, education and medicine.
-Friendly relations with Asia and Russia.
-Friendly relations with all nations around the world, except the worse, which we have no relations.


Europe is programmed for failure. The only one's that can't really see it are Europeans. But, it seems that they never see it. Thus two world wars and a third not conjured due to American presence. But we are leaving Germany and "native" Europeans will have nothing but their bigotries towards a booming population of Islamists who are no more interested in assimilating to their host nations as the host nations are of having them. And of course, the intoleration of religion is going to over just grand with Islam won't it?

I know you are wrong, Americans ignore the opinions of the world, THAT is why America is programmed for failure and the only ones who cannot see that is Americans, everybody dislikes Americans. Thats why I want you to read the article in the link at the bottom of the page, he presents it very nicely how it is and not just from an ingorance(towards the world) American view.

The "Socialist European movement" is a farce. It's the latest attempt of European unification on the blood stained continent. First there was the Church that promised peace and resulted in blood shed. Then as Europe fooled themselves into a pacifist mind set, WWI erupted to shatter such dreams. Then there was the period where Europe fooled themselves into another pacifist mind set before WWII destroyed their visions by attempting to unify Europe again under a Swastika. Today, Europeans sit, yet again, with hopeful dreams and pacifist conviction. History repeats itself. Centuries ago, it was the Protestants or Catholics that fell victim to Europe's need to unite. In the 20th century it was the Jews thet was sacrificed. Tomorrow, maybe Americans will cross the ocean again, but this time it will be to save Muslims.

Its not a farce, its a success, nor is it really about only uniting EUrope, but its an attempt to do the right thing, for all the bad we have done, do the right thing for Europe, and bringing the world a peaceful way of resolving their problems instead of by violence and war.. Americans are still on the bad path Europeans were at in their "youth". WAR WAR WAR WAR, DEATH DEATH DEATH, MURDER MURDER MURDER, BLOOOOOOD.. Thats what Americans want, and the Europeans dont want.

I would like you to read this please, and let me know what you think, he presents the reality very well, not just from the American viewpoint.

The New York Review of Books: Europe vs. America
 
Of course, the most practical reason was thta we had the support of the great majority of Iraqis. Iraqis had risen repeatedly against the Saddam Regime, while the North Koreans have shown no valor to repudiate their leadership. Iraq was doable while war on the Korean peninsula would be a blood bath. The South Koreans would succeed, but Seol would be destroyed (because of location and proximity).

But most of all, because you have to start somewhere. Since Radical Islam from the Middle East is the threat of the day, Saddam's Iraq would do.

Now, why don't you find another dictator in the world that should have taken the place of Saddam's demise. Since the argument that everyone can't be helped at once, therefore no one get's helped is your rant, produce for us some sort of back up that someone else would have been a better placve to start?

The truth is that brown and black suffeirng doesn't matter and it doesn't matter where America went. We've seen this before from our "friends" in Europe. But instead of asking why America goes where it goes, ask your self why the EU goes nowehere?

The EU is spreading though eastern Europe, makin gthose countries stable, also making the neighbour countries stable, notably north Africa..

Thats just a few things of many, but we dont do it by war, why should we kill people when we can get them to do become stable and accountable in a peaceful way?
 
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