How does a person come to understand discrimination?

[opendebate]

Good luck with that.

You don't think that laws have altered behavior?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

You don't think that laws have altered behavior?

You mean there is no racism now that we have all those laws against it?

 

[opendebate]

You mean there is no racism now that we have all those laws against it?

Of course not. Racism is alive and well, unfortunately. I am saying that we must do something and you can not MAKE people feel or think something but laws can at least alter the behavior of many. At least it is something. Not that we should settle for just that, not at all, but it does have a more immediate impact on behavior.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Of course not. Racism is alive and well, unfortunately. I am saying that we must do something and you can not MAKE people feel or think something but laws can at least alter the behavior of many. At least it is something. Not that we should settle for just that, not at all, but it does have a more immediate impact on behavior.

Ok then laws don't really seems to do anything about the root of the problem. You can call that progress but it hasn't solved anything. It only masks it.

 

[opendebate]

Ok then laws don't really seems to do anything about the root of the problem. You can call that progress but it hasn't solved anything. It only masks it.

Problems like this have layers. You address those layers differently. You have to do something that has a more immediate impact on behavior, like laws. (it stops the bleeding or at least slows it down) while you address the root of the problem the attitudes or thinking that generates the behaviors. I do believe that though that changes in habits bring about a change in behaviors and eventually a change of heart. It's basic psychology really. I made my kids make their beds every morning before they left the house. They hated it but I made them do it. Eventually they did it without thinking about it and it even became something they felt uncomfortable not doing.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Problems like this have layers. You address those layers differently. You have to do something that has a more immediate impact on behavior, like laws. (it stops the bleeding or at least slows it down) while you address the root of the problem the attitudes or thinking that generates the behaviors. I do believe that though that changes in habits bring about a change in behaviors and eventually a change of heart. It's basic psychology really. I made my kids make their beds every morning before they left the house. They hated it but I made them do it. Eventually they did it without thinking about it and it even became something they felt uncomfortable not doing.

Great they can make a bed. But can you make them like dogs or cats? Can you make them do something that inside they disagree with? If it was as simple as just forcing kids to do something rebellious teenagers would be in the dustbin of history.

There have been some pretty smart people throughout history. You'd think that if it was possible that on some small scale somewhere in time there would be a period where there was no discrimination, no racism where you could point to and say 'See it does work'. No where in time has racism or discrimination not been present. I don't see our current attempt faring any better.

 

[opendebate]

Great they can make a bed. But can you make them like dogs or cats? Can you make them do something that inside they disagree with? If it was as simple as just forcing kids to do something rebellious teenagers would be in the dustbin of history.

There have been some pretty smart people throughout history. You'd think that if it was possible that on some small scale somewhere in time there would be a period where there was no discrimination, no racism where you could point to and say 'See it does work'. No where in time has racism or discrimination not been present. I don't see our current attempt faring any better.

But can you make them like dogs or cats? First of all this makes you think you are not getting it.

Secondly, you can no do away with something like discrimination. But like any other undesirable behaviors taking place within a civil society you do what you can to both inhibit the behavior and enlighten those you can, to their dumbassery.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

But can you make them like dogs or cats? First of all this makes you think you are not getting it.

Why? It is any different that making someone like a person of a different nationality or race? If they don't like dogs, for whatever reason, can you MAKE them like dogs? Sure you could make them put up with dogs, not hurt dogs, tolerate dogs as it were but if they don't like them they don't like them.

Feel free to try an enlighten everyone n their dumbassery. Feel free to try and legislate it out of existence. There is no magic bullet to eliminate it so at the end of the day you still have to deal with it even if you don't think you should have to.

 

[opendebate]

Per the wiki, I grew up in a neighborhood that was 95.1% white. I was well into my teens before I actually came to be good friends with someone who was not a white, middle-class Christian person. Even so, I persisted with the thought that discrimination was not a problem. That those who complained were playing the race-card or acting as the victim, or that liberals were just being whiny when they talked about 'privilege'. I was never given the opportunity to understand that I was afforded huge benefit in American society, in that I never had to give thought to my race, religion, gender, etc.

In addition being the more fringe libertarian back then, I had the very stupid idea that people were entirely empowered to do whatever they wished. That as the quote above contends, offenders have a right to discriminate because people are afforded recourse when they face explicit or implicit discrimination. It was only after I spent time overseas, became good friends with people of different minority groups and had several gay slurs hurled my way that I actually "got it". It's one thing to say, "Christians have the right to refuse service!" than to actually be the one who is hurled out of the restaurant with ill-intent not just once, but multiple times. It's a rude awakening that changes your world view very quickly.

Of course, having once held these beliefs that discrimination is not a problem ... I can very easily recognize it in other people. My frustration now is trying to drag these people into "getting it" as well. How does one do that with a person, who does not have the potential of experience discrimination him/herself?

Just out of curiosity, after the feedback you have gotten here...how do you feel about dragging people into "getting it"?

 

[mak2]

The thing that makess discrimination and racism go away is to spend time with those which you hate. Funny how when you get to know people we are all pretty much alike. So if you can make the behavior go away eventually the hate will too.

Why? It is any different that making someone like a person of a different nationality or race? If they don't like dogs, for whatever reason, can you MAKE them like dogs? Sure you could make them put up with dogs, not hurt dogs, tolerate dogs as it were but if they don't like them they don't like them.

Feel free to try an enlighten everyone n their dumbassery. Feel free to try and legislate it out of existence. There is no magic bullet to eliminate it so at the end of the day you still have to deal with it even if you don't think you should have to.

 

[opendebate]

Why? It is any different that making someone like a person of a different nationality or race? If they don't like dogs, for whatever reason, can you MAKE them like dogs? Sure you could make them put up with dogs, not hurt dogs, tolerate dogs as it were but if they don't like them they don't like them.

Feel free to try an enlighten everyone n their dumbassery. Feel free to try and legislate it out of existence. There is no magic bullet to eliminate it so at the end of the day you still have to deal with it even if you don't think you should have to.

Because I never suggested you could MAKE someone like something that they don't like. I do suggest that many will change their hearts and minds on their own as they get more information. I suggest we offer a different practice and different information some will change internally some only externally. It is all progress.

I take it you have some kind of sentimental attachment to your bigotry?

 

[Hypersonic]

White people will never understand discrimination like minorities until they become minorities themselves, just as an oppressor would ask the oppressed "Why do you hate me?"

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

The thing that makess discrimination and racism go away is to spend time with those which you hate.

So if you hate a few million people, how do you go about meeting them all?

 

[opendebate]

White people will never understand discrimination like minorities until they become minorities themselves, just as an oppressor would ask the oppressed "Why do you hate me?"

I agree to an extent, it can appear disrespectful in a way. But some can extend themselves and understand it in a less personal way. I am not a minority and can not truly know that experience but I have been judged wrongly for superficial reasons. I can take my experience and multiply it. This can generate empathy which I see as constructive.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Because I never suggested you could MAKE someone like something that they don't like. I do suggest that many will change their hearts and minds on their own as they get more information.

It is essentially what you are saying will happen if people are 'conditioned' through the law. It just won't happen. It may happen on a 1-1 level, and that is generally where you will have the most success, but trying to legislate away racism and say if we just do it long enough we will eliminate the problem is just a pipe dream.

 

[mak2]

You dont have to spend time with them all. Several should do it.

So if you hate a few million people, how do you go about meeting them all?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

White people will never understand discrimination like minorities until they become minorities themselves, just as an oppressor would ask the oppressed "Why do you hate me?"

You mean minorities discriminate? I'm shocked I say, shocked!

 

[mak2]

It is not legislating it away, it is making the world a tolerable place until the ignorant bigots learn not to be so ignorant. In time, there will be no racism.

It is essentially what you are saying will happen if people are 'conditioned' through the law. It just won't happen. It may happen on a 1-1 level, and that is generally where you will have the most success, but trying to legislate away racism and say if we just do it long enough we will eliminate the problem is just a pipe dream.

 

[opendebate]

It is essentially what you are saying will happen if people are 'conditioned' through the law. It just won't happen. It may happen on a 1-1 level, and that is generally where you will have the most success, but trying to legislate away racism and say if we just do it long enough we will eliminate the problem is just a pipe dream.

You need to stop clinging to the word "eliminate". Did you actually read my posts? I never said it would be eliminated.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

You dont have to spend time with them all. Several should do it.

I know plenty of people who you would probably call racist who have personal friends who are a different race. They like the individual but it doesn't change their overall attitude. You can eliminate it on an individual basis by getting to know a person but you can't expect a person to change their general views on millions of people just because they know one or two people who are different than they are. Hell we all know, and probably like, people of a different political bent but it doesn't stop us from calling those we disagree with idiots or racists or evil and accusing them of ruining the country and killing the future.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

It is not legislating it away, it is making the world a tolerable place until the ignorant bigots learn not to be so ignorant. In time, there will be no racism.

And what time will that be?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

You need to stop clinging to the word "eliminate". Did you actually read my posts? I never said it would be eliminated.

What is the point then? Do you just want to make it tolerable enough for you to sleep good at night or make it so you don't have to deal with?

 

[opendebate]

What is the point then? Do you just want to make it tolerable enough for you to sleep good at night or make it so you don't have to deal with?

Okay, I am beginning to question either your maturity or your intellect. If you have a vaccine that cures 80% of the people of some deadly illness do you not bother because it only cures 80%?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Okay, I am beginning to question either your maturity or your intellect. If you have a vaccine that cures 80% of the people of some deadly illness do you not bother because it only cures 80%?

Are you comparing legislation against racism to a vaccine? Hmm. They are just a little different.

 

[mak2]

I was raised in an all white town. I mean all white. It wasnt until I got into the service that I found out all the stuff I had been told all those years about black people simply wasnt true. Several years later when I lived in Philly for a few years one day I realized I was the only white guy I knew. Being exposed to the things which you fear, which I think is the gensis of hate, reduces that fear and hate. the way you said that last line I think you realize it is wrong. I dont think most people really do think like that.

I know plenty of people who you would probably call racist who have personal friends who are a different race. They like the individual but it doesn't change their overall attitude. You can eliminate it on an individual basis by getting to know a person but you can't expect a person to change their general views on millions of people just because they know one or two people who are different than they are. Hell we all know, and probably like, people of a different political bent but it doesn't stop us from calling those we disagree with idiots or racists or evil and accusing them of ruining the country and killing the future.