How does a person come to understand discrimination?

[Carleen]

We all discriminate, whether you want to admit it or not, but some people feel the need to perpetuate archaic stereotypes for their own political or economic interest.

Is there discrimination ? Sure. Is it a profound issue that affects the very moral fabric of the United States ? Hell No.

Should it be an issue in some idiots Politcal or activist motivations ? No.

As of 2013 its mention is exclusive to those who depend on its existence to remain relevent, so people like Sharpton or Obama will give you a reminder from time to time even though its not relevent.

Its too bad , because it waters down the legitimate charge of discrimination.

You just proved the whole point of this post. You are discriminative, right here, right now.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

People who are born to privilege seldom recognize the fact and cannot understand the views of those who don't have a similar experience.

And there is no shortage of people who know nothing about an individuals circumstances that lecture them on how privileged they are!

 

[Captain Adverse]

And there is no shortage of people who know nothing about an individuals circumstances that lecture them on how privileged they are!

Hmm, since I was simply pointing out a general observation without labeling anyone specifically, your reaction is strange. Perhaps it's a sign of "if the shoe fits.....?"

 

[Fenton]

I've
said before that the ability or unwillingness that one is afforded benefits and privileges is part and parcel of privilege itself. For the most part, those who are privileged can deny their own privilege (and by extension denying someone else's reality) and for the most part they won't be questioned or challenged on that assumption.

Other posters will have noticed that I make a lot of posts when privilege manifests itself or rears its ugly head. On top of that, its existence is backed up by tons of sociological research that illustrates differential treatment in housing, in the hiring process, in media portrayals, in academic life, in the legal/justice system, and elsewhere. What's dangerous about current race relations in America is not that overt racists and the KKK are a big deal. It's that all it takes for racial progress to be obstructed is to have large portions of the privileged majority to deny that their own privilege exists. Denial of the reality of a problem - denying that the problem even exists - is obviously the chief obstacle in getting that problem solved. In essence, what's scary is that racism can persist even in a society where no racists exist.

Priveledge and discrimination or racism aren't mutually inclusive.

Priveledge is typically related to socio-economic issues that affect multiple races and cultures.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Hmm, since I was simply pointing out a general observation without labeling anyone specifically, your reaction is strange. Perhaps it's a sign of "if the shoe fits.....?"

A general observation? By saying this?

"I'm not going assume that you are "white," but it does sound like you have grown up without recognizing a position of privilege.

People who are born to privilege seldom recognize the fact and cannot understand the views of those who don't have a similar experience."

You already say you think he has grown up without recognizing his position of privilege and then go on to tell him he probably doesn't even recognize that fact or cannot understand something.

Do you know anything about him at all that would cause you to make those statements to him?

 

[soot]

As of 2013 its mention is exclusive to those who depend on its existence to remain relevent, so people like Sharpton or Obama will give you a reminder from time to time even though its not relevent.

Love the guy or hate him, the President of the United States doesn't need the run a race hustle to "remain relevant".

 

[Fenton]

You just proved the whole point of this post. You are discriminative, right here,
right now.

Lol.....no, no I didn't.

In the context of the people I mentioned specifically, not people generally I DO discriminate but not based on what you think.

I discriminate based on actions as we all do, not race, and you might be surprised how many educated blacks agree with me.

 

[opendebate]

Per the wiki, I grew up in a neighborhood that was 95.1% white. I was well into my teens before I actually came to be good friends with someone who was not a white, middle-class Christian person. Even so, I persisted with the thought that discrimination was not a problem. That those who complained were playing the race-card or acting as the victim, or that liberals were just being whiny when they talked about 'privilege'. I was never given the opportunity to understand that I was afforded huge benefit in American society, in that I never had to give thought to my race, religion, gender, etc.

In addition being the more fringe libertarian back then, I had the very stupid idea that people were entirely empowered to do whatever they wished. That as the quote above contends, offenders have a right to discriminate because people are afforded recourse when they face explicit or implicit discrimination. It was only after I spent time overseas, became good friends with people of different minority groups and had several gay slurs hurled my way that I actually "got it". It's one thing to say, "Christians have the right to refuse service!" than to actually be the one who is hurled out of the restaurant with ill-intent not just once, but multiple times. It's a rude awakening that changes your world view very quickly.

Of course, having once held these beliefs that discrimination is not a problem ... I can very easily recognize it in other people. My frustration now is trying to drag these people into "getting it" as well. How does one do that with a person, who does not have the potential of experience discrimination him/herself?

Good luck. I have made this effort many times because I also had an epiphany that opened my eyes. I heard a saying the other day about how people only really learn through personal experience. I am beginning to think this might be true. Maybe you can just make the effort, if someone is open and listens great , if not maybe they will draw on it later in life when an experience comes their way.

 

[Fenton]

Love the guy or hate him, the President of the
United States doesn't need the run a race hustle to "remain relevant".

YES HE DOES ...LOL !!

Wow where have you been ? Would he be relevent if he didn't win the 2008 or 2012 election ?

Do you think he took advantage of the 50% of him to capture over 90% of the vote ?

They were comparing him to Dr Martin Luther King in 2008.

Not to mention the occasional sound bite that he uses to stay in touch with his black voters, his statment about Trayvon Martin looking like his son.

Because the Trayvon Martin case was a MASSIVE race hustle. It is a great example of a race hustle and Obama jumped on it as quick as he could.

Why didn't he make a statement about the black on black violence in Detroit and Chicago ? Because you cant spin that into a "us vs them" false narrative .

 

[opendebate]

Is it not also discrimination to chide the opinion of people who are force [by law or otherwise] into accepting something they feel is wrong, criminal or sinful?

IOWs the other side of the coin.

It's not the same. Just because some do not recognize racism does not mean those who are discriminated against should wait for your enlightenment. If we did that we would never see any changes. Injustice is injustice, not seeing is not a matter of a different opinion it's an issue of awareness.

 

[opendebate]

Most animals, human or otherwise, have an innate disposition to pack, herd, school for their survival. In humans, that instinct has grown to be less of a survival thing because of our domination of other animals. to have manifested itself in other ways. Racism is just one of those ways that it has manifested itself. Humans are not above nature--we are still a part of it.

But we strive to be better.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

But we strive to be better.

You strive to what you think is better. But it is your vision of what better is that you go towards not mine or his or anyone else's.

 

[WCH]

It's not the same. Just because some do not recognize racism does not mean those who are discriminated against should wait for your enlightenment. If we did that we would never see any changes. Injustice is injustice, not seeing is not a matter of a different opinion it's an issue of awareness.

I think you and others like you are obsessed with race, gayness and abortion, the party line if you will.

Wouldn't it be a better world if we discussed money, sex and drugs?

 

[opendebate]

Lets use a very simple example. If I have been burned by a stove then I will learn to be wary of stoves. If I have never been burned by a stove, but repeatedly warned of their dangers and told of others that have been burned by stoves, then I am also apt to be wary of stoves. Is being wary of stoves irrational in either case?

Problem with this analogy is that a stove remains constant. It is always a stove and therefore getting burned by a stove is a very predictable outcome. Humans aren't stoves.

 

[opendebate]

Perhaps you are missing my point. Racial discrimination, like being wary of stoves, is a learned behavior, not an instinctual or hereditary inborn trait. Something that is learned (being wary of stoves), whether from personal experience or simply from instruction (education?) by those that you trust can also be countered by logical explanation or by providing proof (perhaps by example) that it is not logical, thus it can be unlearned.

Just as not all blacks are dangerous criminals (or exhibit some other bad trait/behavior) niether do all stoves pose a risk that cannot be managed. Learning how to interact with stoves (or blacks) and thus enjoy that experience without suffering any harm only requires learning to recognize and avoid the dangers of a stove (or a black person) while understanding the benefits to be had by not avoiding them.

Okay, this helps. I think I misunderstood your original post.

 

[opendebate]

I've said before that the ability or unwillingness that one is afforded benefits and privileges is part and parcel of privilege itself. For the most part, those who are privileged can deny their own privilege (and by extension denying someone else's reality) and for the most part they won't be questioned or challenged on that assumption.

Other posters will have noticed that I make a lot of posts when privilege manifests itself or rears its ugly head. On top of that, its existence is backed up by tons of sociological research that illustrates differential treatment in housing, in the hiring process, in media portrayals, in academic life, in the legal/justice system, and elsewhere. What's dangerous about current race relations in America is not that overt racists and the KKK are a big deal. It's that all it takes for racial progress to be obstructed is to have large portions of the privileged majority to deny that their own privilege exists. Denial of the reality of a problem - denying that the problem even exists - is obviously the chief obstacle in getting that problem solved. In essence, what's scary is that racism can persist even in a society where no racists exist.

Well said. Wish I could like this post 10 more times.

 

[opendebate]

You strive to what you think is better. But it is your vision of what better is that you go towards not mine or his or anyone else's.

So are you saying that racism is not something you would strive to evolve away from?

 

[opendebate]

I think you and others like you are obsessed with race, gayness and abortion, the party line if you will.

Wouldn't it be a better world if we discussed money, sex and drugs?

Well of course. But that's not what is on the table right now.

I get the impression, and this is an invitation to let me know if I am wrong, that you are okay with things as they are because you are not suffering from discrimination.

 

[Gardener]

That's not the question I posed nor did I identify myself as the target of said discrimination.

Wanna try again?

So what is this --twenty questions time?

You made a vague reference to people being chided for disagreeing with illegal and/or immoral acts. I listed a couple. Do I need to go through the whole list?

 

[Captain Adverse]

A general observation? By saying this?

"I'm not going assume that you are "white," but it does sound like you have grown up without recognizing a position of privilege.

People who are born to privilege seldom recognize the fact and cannot understand the views of those who don't have a similar experience."

You already say you think he has grown up without recognizing his position of privilege and then go on to tell him he probably doesn't even recognize that fact or cannot understand something.

Do you know anything about him at all that would cause you to make those statements to him?

Exactly as I stated in your quote. I did not assume he was white, because I am well-aware of "liberal" sections of our nation where some minority members grow up with few examples of discrimination. I also have experience with such minority members who suddenly find themselves being discriminated against when they go away to college or move to a new area without an "other-then-liberal" slant.

I also indicated the member "sounded like" he grew up in one of those areas. He could be white, black, latin...who knows?

As for why I attributed this "possibility" of such a privileged existence to the member? From his own statement "Second, I don't exist in the mindset that would alllow me to even recognize that I've been discriminated against." The only way to have such a "mindset" is to have never (or rarely ever) experienced discrimination.

Next time, read for comprehension before you jump to conclusions.

 

[Fisher]

But we strive to be better.

We aren't doing a very good job of it. Cats haven't invented weapons that could destroy animals anywhere on the planet, and maybe the planet itself because they hate dogs or like to eat birds.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Of course, having once held these beliefs that discrimination is not a problem ... I can very easily recognize it in other people. My frustration now is trying to drag these people into "getting it" as well. How does one do that with a person, who does not have the potential of experience discrimination him/herself?

I would say that ignorance is a lot like addiction. It's a common saying that addicts only get sober when they are ready for sobriety and that's the truth. It's the same with ignorant people, particularly on issues like discrimination and prejudice. They have to be ready for knowledge in order to receive and accept it.

With the above in mind, I'll say that simply speaking up and having verifiable evidence to support your claims is a good way to educate those who lack the knowledge. While neither action will likely change minds immediately, they will - at the very least - make sure that the person on the receiving of your words will know that there are those who see the world differently. The more they hear different perspectives, the more they may start to doubt their own.

That said, because people have to be ready for knowledge in order to accept it, it's very difficult to reach people just by talking to them or even showing them research. So, I would say that you might want to amend your goals. Instead of trying to help people "get it", I would start by just trying to show people the truth and being okay with them not "getting it" right away.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

So are you saying that racism is not something you would strive to evolve away from?

I'm saying that your vision of what is better is simply your vision, no better or worse than millions of others definition of it and each one is different.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Next time, read for comprehension before you jump to conclusions.

Sure as soon as you stop acting like some sort of privlige determiner who pretndns know what others have been through and then try to weasal out of it.?

 

[opendebate]

I'm saying that your vision of what is better is simply your vision, no better or worse than millions of others definition of it and each one is different.

Okay, are you also saying that racism is not something you would strive to evolve away from?