How bad will it get?

[Renae]

How bad will it have to get?

Reading the forum, the web and listening to pundits and politicians everyone has blinders on. President Obama and his band of merry men seem to think that our debt is not a critical issue. Politicians are scared out of their minds to act, and the public is blissfully ignorant as to the challenges we face.

If you suggest radical actual solutions to our debt, like abolishing Social Security, abolishing Medicaide and Medicare you are called heartless. We cannot afford these programs, they are going to destroy our government through fiscal collapse. That's just what is going to happen. We can fudge the numbers, hide the problem and punt it to the next election cycle but the end of the road is nigh.

No one wants to act because THERE WILL be problems. I'm not blind to that. There will be people that will fall “through the cracks”. There will be harm. But that harm pales in comparison if the dollar becomes completely worthless. That day is on the horizon, and we just ignore it.

If you bring up cutting these massive social programs the first retort is “Cut defense!!” well, that's a great idea if it made sense, but it does not. Are there areas of waste in the DOD budget, certainly. Can there be changes made. Absolutely. But let's be realistic. SS, Medicaide and Medicare take up around 65% of the spending by the government. Focusing on the Defense Budget is like agreeing to not eat out one time a month while taking vacations on maxed out credit cards.

It just doesn't make sense.

Politically, it's a horror. Too many Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that they NEED these outlays, that without Government they are doomed. This is sad, but it's also not a shock when you consider that the New Deal and Great Society intentionally set up this dependency on the Government. We lost thousands of our hard earned dollars for what? Hope that we'll get it back when we are older? That is the great lie. Most of us between 18 and 40 won't see that money. It's gone. We just keep putting our hands over our ears and denying it.

Those folks that are on the cusp or are receiving the money don't want to lose what “we're owed” because they paid in their whole lives. I don't blame them for being angry, but it's their fault for not demanding the system work, and for trying to stick the young generations with the bill.

America is a great nation that allows people to succeed on their own merits, but we've forgotten that, we've become a nation afraid to allow people the right to fail. We've seen generations squander that freedom for the false blanket of “security” by turning to Washington instead of looking to ourselves.

It's time to face facts, and act before the damage is beyond our control. Better to fix it now, rather then wait for the anvil to hit us all. But we won't, sadly. Humans tend to make the most irrational choices based on Hope. Hope is a wonderful thing, but it has an inherent flaw; delusion.

No one wants to believe the worst, it's easier to ignore it. Throw in the political ignorance of the masses and we're good and truly hosed. We all know we need to act, but that action will be painful, so we'll wait till we must act, and the pain will be far far greater.

*note was also posted as a blog:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/blogs/mrvicchio/248-bad-get.html

 

[somebodyelse]

Republicans, Democrat, they're all crooks. Democrats will tax the hell out of you, (which I'm ok with,) but then spend it on useless programs, and themselves. Republicans will open up the economy and enforce less taxes, but in doing so will let their multi million (possibly billion) businesses rape the population of even more money.

Politics is ****ed.

We, and the US, and every other country in the world needs a politician with morals. I'd be ok with a Conservative leader if they had morals.

But sadly none do, no politician does. I don't know what to tell you.

 

[MaggieD]

How bad will it have to get?

Reading the forum, the web and listening to pundits and politicians everyone has blinders on. President Obama and his band of merry men seem to think that our debt is not a critical issue. Politicians are scared out of their minds to act, and the public is blissfully ignorant as to the challenges we face.

If you suggest radical actual solutions to our debt, like abolishing Social Security, abolishing Medicaide and Medicare you are called heartless. We cannot afford these programs, they are going to destroy our government through fiscal collapse. That's just what is going to happen. We can fudge the numbers, hide the problem and punt it to the next election cycle but the end of the road is nigh.

No one wants to act because THERE WILL be problems. I'm not blind to that. There will be people that will fall “through the cracks”. There will be harm. But that harm pales in comparison if the dollar becomes completely worthless. That day is on the horizon, and we just ignore it.

If you bring up cutting these massive social programs the first retort is “Cut defense!!” well, that's a great idea if it made sense, but it does not. Are there areas of waste in the DOD budget, certainly. Can there be changes made. Absolutely. But let's be realistic. SS, Medicaide and Medicare take up around 65% of the spending by the government. Focusing on the Defense Budget is like agreeing to not eat out one time a month while taking vacations on maxed out credit cards.

It just doesn't make sense.

Politically, it's a horror. Too many Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that they NEED these outlays, that without Government they are doomed. This is sad, but it's also not a shock when you consider that the New Deal and Great Society intentionally set up this dependency on the Government. We lost thousands of our hard earned dollars for what? Hope that we'll get it back when we are older? That is the great lie. Most of us between 18 and 40 won't see that money. It's gone. We just keep putting our hands over our ears and denying it.

Those folks that are on the cusp or are receiving the money don't want to lose what “we're owed” because they paid in their whole lives. I don't blame them for being angry, but it's their fault for not demanding the system work, and for trying to stick the young generations with the bill.

America is a great nation that allows people to succeed on their own merits, but we've forgotten that, we've become a nation afraid to allow people the right to fail. We've seen generations squander that freedom for the false blanket of “security” by turning to Washington instead of looking to ourselves.

It's time to face facts, and act before the damage is beyond our control. Better to fix it now, rather then wait for the anvil to hit us all. But we won't, sadly. Humans tend to make the most irrational choices based on Hope. Hope is a wonderful thing, but it has an inherent flaw; delusion.

No one wants to believe the worst, it's easier to ignore it. Throw in the political ignorance of the masses and we're good and truly hosed. We all know we need to act, but that action will be painful, so we'll wait till we must act, and the pain will be far far greater.

*note was also posted as a blog:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/blogs/mrvicchio/248-bad-get.html

It's disheartening to read people's thoughts about our debt. As an example, cutting NPR funding. Whether or not one agrees with it is immaterial. What those opposed were saying is, "Hey!! That's a drop in the bucket. It doesn't matter!!" We need to begin to understand that it all matters!!

I'd like to see our government say, "Every single department is hereby mandated to cut 15% from its administrative budget." That could be done in a New York Minute. It would send a powerful message: "We're trying."

Social Security needs reform. But it can certainly work. Annuities have worked forever. If the underwriting is sound, Social Security can be sound. But it isn't. Yet.

We need to unleash rabid dogs on the government's payroll to uncover fraud and abuse. Pay them a 15% commission on first-year savings. They'll find it. Guaranteed. Some people say, "Well, that doesn't amount to that much." Hey!! Get rid of it!! It'll keep the rest of us honest. Every time I read about Medicare fraud and abuse I could spit. Years to investigate...yada yada yada. Pay a 15% commision and stand back!!

I honestly don't see any hope. We're headed in a downward spiral that can't be stopped. Saving our country isn't politically popular. Unless it becomes popular, we're doomed.

 

[somebodyelse]

I honestly don't see any hope. We're headed in a downward spiral that can't be stopped. Saving our country isn't politically popular. Unless it becomes popular, we're doomed.

This is what I said in my "Last ages of a Power" thread, but no one seems to think so.

 

[cpgrad08]

This is what I said in my "Last ages of a Power" thread, but no one seems to think so.

Your just wanting to see the collapse of the center of capitalism. If we can get though the Great Depression, WW2, the Civil War, ETC we will get though this. We must as a people keep the faith.

 

[somebodyelse]

Your just wanting to see the collapse of the center of capitalism. If we can get though the Great Depression, WW2, the Civil War, ETC we will get though this. We must as a people keep the faith.

But I'd say 90% of Americans, or Canadians for that matter, have any faith in your gov't.
If you can set aside your differences, and work toward saving your countries economy, integrity and respect from other countries, I'd change me mind. But seems a long way of with the severe national unity problems you guys have.

 

[cpgrad08]

But I'd say 90% of Americans, or Canadians for that matter, have any faith in your gov't.
If you can set aside your differences, and work toward saving your countries economy, integrity and respect from other countries, I'd change me mind. But seems a long way of with the severe national unity problems you guys have.

Every country goes through periods likes this with dividence specailly in a democratic society. It just seems all your post of late are just about how you think the U.S. will collpase. I know that would make a commie like you happy but it's not going to happen.

 

[somebodyelse]

Every country goes through periods likes this with dividence specailly in a democratic society. It just seems all your post of late are just about how you think the U.S. will collpase. I know that would make a commie like you happy but it's not going to happen.

Hopefully it wont, I'd change my mind on a lot of things if the US were to improve itself instead bickering amongst each other. Your country has the power to better ever human on this ****ing planets' life, but instead you hoard everything to yourselves and meddle with everyone else's business to fit your countries best interest. Your country has the potential to be loved, but you squander the Earth's resources.

I don't want to see the US collapse, that would just screw everyone over, I would like to see you change your ways though.

 

[cpgrad08]

Hopefully it wont, I'd change my mind on a lot of things if the US were to improve itself instead bickering amongst each other. Your country has the power to better ever human on this ****ing planets' life, but instead you hoard everything to yourselves and meddle with everyone else's business to fit your countries best interest. Your country has the potential to be loved, but you squander the Earth's resources.

I don't want to see the US collapse, that would just screw everyone over, I would like to see you change your ways though.

AKA " I want the USA to go Commie". News Flash a country's primary duty is to itself and not the world.

 

[somebodyelse]

AKA " I want the USA to go Commie". News Flash a country's primary duty is to itself and not the world.

Thus why I hate you and your country. And not commie, I'm fine with Capitalism as long as it isn't the "hog everything I can" form you have now.

 

[cpgrad08]

Thus why I hate you and your country. And not commie, I'm fine with Capitalism as long as it isn't the "hog everything I can" form you have now.

If Canada was the U.S. would you still be complaining?

Edit: I don't hate you I'm just not fan of Communism.

 

[somebodyelse]

If Canada was the U.S. would you still be complaining?

Edit: I don't hate you I'm just not fan of Communism.

If Canada was the US I'd absolutely be complaining, and I'd move to Europe right after I finished school.

 

[Canell]

How bad will it have to get?

Well, when the dollar collapses and hyperinflation takes off, it would be pretty bad. :3oops:
Moreover, that could unleash WW3 when different countries realize their trillions of dollars are virtually worthless. :doh
It's not a good time.

 

[somebodyelse]

Well, when the dollar collapses and hyperinflation takes off, it would be pretty bad. :3oops:
Moreover, that could unleash WW3 when different countries realize their trillions of dollars are virtually worthless. :doh
It's not a good time.

:/ yeah. I'm just being more paranoid right now, but I think the doomsday clock should be at 11:59.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Well, when the dollar collapses and hyperinflation takes off, it would be pretty bad.
Moreover, that could unleash WW3 when different countries realize their trillions of dollars are virtually worthless.
It's not a good time.

:/ yeah. I'm just being more paranoid right now, but I think the doomsday clock should be at 11:59.

So do non-Americans just sit around talking about the collapse of the U.S....

 

[Jetboogieman]

Everyone and I mean everyone has their head in the sand.

Republicans and democrats.

"we'll tax cut our way out if this mess" vs. "we'll spend our way out of it"

Both sides are stupid.

But it's ok, boehner said he'd cut his congressional office by 5 ****ing %

:2party:

 

[molten_dragon]

If you suggest radical actual solutions to our debt, like abolishing Social Security, abolishing Medicaide and Medicare you are called heartless.

I don't think it's heartless, just extremely unrealistic. Social security and medicare/medicaid are here to stay. The republicans who would be the most likely group to try and get rid of them will never do so because they rely heavily on senior citizens to get elected.

I don't necessarily agree that they need to be abolished, but they definitely do need to be reformed. The retirement age for SS needs to go up by quite a bit.

 

[somebodyelse]

So do non-Americans just sit around talking about the collapse of the U.S....

Not all the time but sometimes yes. We talk about it because its usually ones on the outside that can see the flaws.

 

[PeteEU]

How bad will it have to get?

Reading the forum, the web and listening to pundits and politicians everyone has blinders on. President Obama and his band of merry men seem to think that our debt is not a critical issue. Politicians are scared out of their minds to act, and the public is blissfully ignorant as to the challenges we face.

Okay..

If you suggest radical actual solutions to our debt, like abolishing Social Security, abolishing Medicaide and Medicare you are called heartless. We cannot afford these programs, they are going to destroy our government through fiscal collapse. That's just what is going to happen. We can fudge the numbers, hide the problem and punt it to the next election cycle but the end of the road is nigh.

Err.. wait a minute.. are you talking DEFICIT or DEBT.. they are not the same thing.

If you bring up cutting these massive social programs the first retort is “Cut defense!!” well, that's a great idea if it made sense, but it does not. Are there areas of waste in the DOD budget, certainly. Can there be changes made. Absolutely. But let's be realistic. SS, Medicaide and Medicare take up around 65% of the spending by the government. Focusing on the Defense Budget is like agreeing to not eat out one time a month while taking vacations on maxed out credit cards.

So now it is spending aka DEFICIT? Then why did you say DEBT above? Cutting SS and what not will not cut your DEBT.. your DEFICIT yes, but not you DEBT.. to cut DEBT you need among other things a surplus .. something the US has not had for ages.

It just doesn't make sense.

Of course it dont, you are mixing stuff up constantly.. talking about debt when you mean deficit and so on.

Politically, it's a horror. Too many Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that they NEED these outlays, that without Government they are doomed. This is sad, but it's also not a shock when you consider that the New Deal and Great Society intentionally set up this dependency on the Government. We lost thousands of our hard earned dollars for what? Hope that we'll get it back when we are older? That is the great lie. Most of us between 18 and 40 won't see that money. It's gone. We just keep putting our hands over our ears and denying it.

Funny how you dont mention big corporations who have exactly the same problem.. Koch industries the biggest backer of GOP, only is what it is thanks to... government handouts.

Those folks that are on the cusp or are receiving the money don't want to lose what “we're owed” because they paid in their whole lives. I don't blame them for being angry, but it's their fault for not demanding the system work, and for trying to stick the young generations with the bill.

Well SS is just fine, if you make the Feds pay back the money they borrowed over the years. Funny how the right never mention that.

As for Medicare and Medicaid.. costs are rising there because of the system outside Medicare and Medicaid. The private run healthcare system is the one driving costs up because it has very little competition and regulation. Fix that, and medicare and Medicaid would be just fine. They after all have the lowest administrative costs of all healthcare in the US. It aint perfect, but it is cheaper than private run healthcare.

America is a great nation that allows people to succeed on their own merits, but we've forgotten that, we've become a nation afraid to allow people the right to fail. We've seen generations squander that freedom for the false blanket of “security” by turning to Washington instead of looking to ourselves.

Banks......

It's time to face facts, and act before the damage is beyond our control. Better to fix it now, rather then wait for the anvil to hit us all. But we won't, sadly. Humans tend to make the most irrational choices based on Hope. Hope is a wonderful thing, but it has an inherent flaw; delusion.

sure if you were not so selective and partisan in your "facts". The solution is out there, but cutting taxes and spending is not the correct one.. You need to cut spending across the board including defence and raise tax collection.. either by raising taxes or getting rid of the massive loopholes corporations and rich people have to avoid paying the full share.....

There is no easy way out, I agree on that.. but first off.. stop mixing DEBT and DEFICIT.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Not all the time but sometimes yes. We talk about it because its usually ones on the outside that can see the flaws.

What flaws do you see?

 

[Occam's Razor]

How bad will it have to get?

Reading the forum, the web and listening to pundits and politicians everyone has blinders on. President Obama and his band of merry men seem to think that our debt is not a critical issue. Politicians are scared out of their minds to act, and the public is blissfully ignorant as to the challenges we face.

If you suggest radical actual solutions to our debt, like abolishing Social Security, abolishing Medicaide and Medicare you are called heartless. We cannot afford these programs, they are going to destroy our government through fiscal collapse. That's just what is going to happen. We can fudge the numbers, hide the problem and punt it to the next election cycle but the end of the road is nigh.

No one wants to act because THERE WILL be problems. I'm not blind to that. There will be people that will fall “through the cracks”. There will be harm. But that harm pales in comparison if the dollar becomes completely worthless. That day is on the horizon, and we just ignore it.

If you bring up cutting these massive social programs the first retort is “Cut defense!!” well, that's a great idea if it made sense, but it does not. Are there areas of waste in the DOD budget, certainly. Can there be changes made. Absolutely. But let's be realistic. SS, Medicaide and Medicare take up around 65% of the spending by the government. Focusing on the Defense Budget is like agreeing to not eat out one time a month while taking vacations on maxed out credit cards.

It's not the existence of these programs that is the problem, it's largely the abuse of them by both citizens and politicians.

It just doesn't make sense.

Politically, it's a horror. Too many Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that they NEED these outlays, that without Government they are doomed. This is sad, but it's also not a shock when you consider that the New Deal and Great Society intentionally set up this dependency on the Government. We lost thousands of our hard earned dollars for what? Hope that we'll get it back when we are older? That is the great lie. Most of us between 18 and 40 won't see that money. It's gone. We just keep putting our hands over our ears and denying it.

Those folks that are on the cusp or are receiving the money don't want to lose what “we're owed” because they paid in their whole lives. I don't blame them for being angry, but it's their fault for not demanding the system work, and for trying to stick the young generations with the bill.

Do we need these programs? No, not really. But in there place would spring state hospital institutionalizing and debtors prisons. For a supposedly Christian nation, it is not only in our best interest to take care of those in need, as the worlds wealthiest nation, it is well within our means to establish a last ditch safety net. Sadly, it has become a first line refuge of unscrupulous lawyers and the truly lazy.

As for sticking the young with the bill... SS is fully funded... or should be. Unfortunately that TRUST fund has been raided by every congress to balance budget shortfalls. Where SSI and the Medicaid/care programs are concerned, there is a massive amount of unnecessary outlay to manufactured or exaggerated disabilities.

America is a great nation that allows people to succeed on their own merits, but we've forgotten that, we've become a nation afraid to allow people the right to fail. We've seen generations squander that freedom for the false blanket of “security” by turning to Washington instead of looking to ourselves.

It's time to face facts, and act before the damage is beyond our control. Better to fix it now, rather then wait for the anvil to hit us all. But we won't, sadly. Humans tend to make the most irrational choices based on Hope. Hope is a wonderful thing, but it has an inherent flaw; delusion.

No one wants to believe the worst, it's easier to ignore it. Throw in the political ignorance of the masses and we're good and truly hosed. We all know we need to act, but that action will be painful, so we'll wait till we must act, and the pain will be far far greater.

*note was also posted as a blog:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/blogs/mrvicchio/248-bad-get.html

The solution does not begin with chucking the whole system, a system which should be admired by a Christian population... it begins with ending the corruption, legal profiteering, and abusers of the system. Those should be the only ones to feel the pain of a change in the system.

We owe it to those who have paid and deserve what was promised them (see: Trust) to do everything in our power to perpetuate this system. We owe it to ourselves as a "Christian nation", or even a moral and just nation to take care of those most in need. The problem is not the programs, it's that it's being leached off of by those that have contributed the least for various spurious reasons.