Honour Crimes against women are on the rise in the UK

[gunner]

'Honour' crimes against women in UK rising rapidly, figures show | UK news | The Guardian

This is an extremely sickening practice which has no part in UK society (or any other society for that matter)

"Statistics obtained under the Freedom of Information Act about such violence – which can include threats, abduction, acid attacks, beatings, forced marriage, mutilation and murder – show that in the 12 police force areas for which comparable data was available, reports went up by 47% in just a year."

Because of the increase, could this mean many more women are attempting to turn their backs on traditional practices, carried out in their country of origin?

Paul

 

[PeteEU]

'Honour' crimes against women in UK rising rapidly, figures show | UK news | The Guardian

This is an extremely sickening practice which has no part in UK society (or any other society for that matter)

"Statistics obtained under the Freedom of Information Act about such violence – which can include threats, abduction, acid attacks, beatings, forced marriage, mutilation and murder – show that in the 12 police force areas for which comparable data was available, reports went up by 47% in just a year."

Because of the increase, could this mean many more women are attempting to turn their backs on traditional practices, carried out in their country of origin?

Paul

Answer to your question... yes.

Both in the more traditional parts of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and of course Islam, more and more women and men are breaking tradition and it often results in violence and even death. But an important distinction is that we might attribute these actions to a certain religion but in reality they are based in local, regional and tribal traditions and have very little to do with the actual religions.

Honour based systems exist in many parts of Europe.. mostly eastern Europe and south Eastern Europe and of course among immigrant populations who come from backwards thinking areas of different countries. It is ironic that honour punishment and killing are banned in many of said countries and actually policed, but when these people move to Europe they are free to keep up the traditions. 100+ years ago, honour killings and punishment was quite common in Europe.. they were called everything from witch burnings to duels.

Now the most honour killings/punishments happen in India among hindus.. not because of religion but because of ancient traditions. They are of course illegal, but they still happen and are often covered up by local police or ignored.

But in Europe, honour killings happen mostly because one part in the dispute is going against tradition ... this usually means the women refusing to marry a selected mate or wear certain cloths or not go to school and what not.

Personally I believe anyone participating in said practices should be put in prison of course if there is a crime and after serving, then they should be expelled from the country/EU back to where they came from originally and have their citizenship revoked if they have such a thing. Only this way can we get rid of such morons.

 

[gunner]

Answer to your question... yes.

Both in the more traditional parts of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and of course Islam, more and more women and men are breaking tradition and it often results in violence and even death. But an important distinction is that we might attribute these actions to a certain religion but in reality they are based in local, regional and tribal traditions and have very little to do with the actual religions.

Honour based systems exist in many parts of Europe.. mostly eastern Europe and south Eastern Europe and of course among immigrant populations who come from backwards thinking areas of different countries. It is ironic that honour punishment and killing are banned in many of said countries and actually policed, but when these people move to Europe they are free to keep up the traditions. 100+ years ago, honour killings and punishment was quite common in Europe.. they were called everything from witch burnings to duels.

Now the most honour killings/punishments happen in India among hindus.. not because of religion but because of ancient traditions. They are of course illegal, but they still happen and are often covered up by local police or ignored.

But in Europe, honour killings happen mostly because one part in the dispute is going against tradition ... this usually means the women refusing to marry a selected mate or wear certain cloths or not go to school and what not.


Personally I believe anyone participating in said practices should be put in prison of course if there is a crime and after serving, then they should be expelled from the country/EU back to where they came from originally and have their citizenship revoked if they have such a thing. Only this way can we get rid of such morons.

I appreciate your balanced approach, Pete. But, can you quantify the amount of 'honour killings' (specific to the UK) carried out by Christian family members? (There looks to be nothing coming up from a quick search).

Paul

 

[Ben K.]

I'd have to agree with Pete's solution to the matter, but I'm bemused by the claims of Jewish and Christian honour killings. I wouldn't be surprised if could find a few cases that could be described as such, but it's dishonest to draw a comparison in scale. I'm sure a few atheists kill because of their "honour", but it in no way addresses the fact that it is largely a Arab and south-west Asian tribal tradition.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

So if this is on such a significant rise - what are they doing about it?

They should be setting up safe houses and an intense protective net work for potential victims and anyone who wants to 'defect' from their family and subsequent bull****.

 

[PeteEU]

I appreciate your balanced approach, Pete. But, can you quantify the amount of 'honour killings' (specific to the UK) carried out by Christian family members? (There looks to be nothing coming up from a quick search).

Paul

Point is they are not called "honour" killings, but murder. There are not many, since there aint much murder in the UK, but they do pop up once in a while. I remember not long ago a father killing his children and wife, burning down his house and then killing himself due to what we found out later was economic ruin... that is an honour killing... his own honour but still an honour killing.

When a man beats his wife or child.. that's most likely an honour beating.. he feels his honour is hurt or his authority is challenged.. the list goes on. But they are all called different things.. domestic abuse, attempted murder, murder, assault and so on. But their ultimate motive is deep down personal honour related to the victims "crime"... wife cheated on husband, husband beat her... honour related.

 

[PeteEU]

I'd have to agree with Pete's solution to the matter, but I'm bemused by the claims of Jewish and Christian honour killings. I wouldn't be surprised if could find a few cases that could be described as such, but it's dishonest to draw a comparison in scale. I'm sure a few atheists kill because of their "honour", but it in no way addresses the fact that it is largely a Arab and south-west Asian tribal tradition.

Most honour killings happen among Hindu's not among Arabs tribal traditions. There are estimates that at least 100000 honour killings in India each year... many are called "kitchen accidents". Indian police of course rarely investigate these accidents because it is the tradition.. but it is a well know fact and dirty secret of India. If the family of the man does not like the dowery of the woman's family then they have the right to kill her... which many do.

My point about the Jewish and Christian aspect is to point out that we dont call crimes of honour done by Jews or Christians as honour killings/beatings. We call them murder, assault, and so on.

When a man beats his wife because she cheated on him... that is honour beating. When he kills her, then that is an honour killing. But in our society it is listed as murder.

When a man beats his child because she does not respect his authority, then that too is an honour beating.... especially if that child is in its late teens. But in our society it is listed as murder or assault.

When a man kills his whole family because of economic ruin, then that too is an honour killing but not listed as that..

Plus we rarely get news in the UK or west about the many honour like killings and crime going on in Christian Eastern Europe or in Christian Nigeria. Fact is we ignore it because Christians are suppose to be the civilized ones ... but reality is a bitch.

 

[Gardener]

Honor crimes will continue to increase as populations become increasingly ghettoized and treated as separate societies living within the greater society. These crimes are a direct consequence of the dogmatic multiculturalism that has allowed and abetted this process.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I appreciate your balanced approach, Pete. But, can you quantify the amount of 'honour killings' (specific to the UK) carried out by Christian family members? (There looks to be nothing coming up from a quick search).
Paul

Iirc, most of the Christian "honor killings" take place in South and Central America. I could be really mis-remembering, though.

 

[Ben K.]

ny

Most honour killings happen among Hindu's not among Arabs tribal traditions. There are estimates that at least 100000 honour killings in India each year... many are called "kitchen accidents". Indian police of course rarely investigate these accidents because it is the tradition.. but it is a well know fact and dirty secret of India. If the family of the man does not like the dowery of the woman's family then they have the right to kill her... which many do.

My point about the Jewish and Christian aspect is to point out that we dont call crimes of honour done by Jews or Christians as honour killings/beatings. We call them murder, assault, and so on.

When a man beats his wife because she cheated on him... that is honour beating. When he kills her, then that is an honour killing. But in our society it is listed as murder.

When a man beats his child because she does not respect his authority, then that too is an honour beating.... especially if that child is in its late teens. But in our society it is listed as murder or assault.

When a man kills his whole family because of economic ruin, then that too is an honour killing but not listed as that..

Plus we rarely get news in the UK or west about the many honour like killings and crime going on in Christian Eastern Europe or in Christian Nigeria. Fact is we ignore it because Christians are suppose to be the civilized ones ... but reality is a bitch.

Honour killings aren't seen as seperate crimes under the law. But for your solution to be effective they would have to be viewed as such or else we'd deport any first generation immigrant who commits any crime for any reason, right?

And are you seriously trying to argue that there's a pro-Christian bias in the media?

 

[PeteEU]

ny

Honour killings aren't seen as seperate crimes under the law. But for your solution to be effective they would have to be viewed as such or else we'd deport any first generation immigrant who commits any crime for any reason, right?

And are you seriously trying to argue that there's a pro-Christian bias in the media?

There is no such thing as "honour crime" under the law in western Europe.. there is in Turkey and India where honour crimes are traditional. It is a media and right wing made up definition of a mostly Islamic tradition (in the media's eyes and right wing). A man who kills his daughter in an "honour crime" is charged under the law with murder, not honour killing.

So yes I am seriously trying to state that their is either a pro-Christian bias in the media with the right wings help (most major English speaking media outlets are owned by known right wingers), or there is a an anti-Islam bias in the media. There should be no different in definition when a Christian man murders his wife/children or when it is an Muslim man.... but there is one as the OP link proves.

 

[Tashah]

There are quite a few monographs/books/articles written by Arab women on this phenomena. They all use the terms “honor killings/crimes”

Queen Noor says 'honour crime' is inconsistent with Islam

 

[Ben K.]

There is no such thing as "honour crime" under the law in western Europe.. there is in Turkey and India where honour crimes are traditional. It is a media and right wing made up definition of a mostly Islamic tradition (in the media's eyes and right wing). A man who kills his daughter in an "honour crime" is charged under the law with murder, not honour killing.

So yes I am seriously trying to state that their is either a pro-Christian bias in the media with the right wings help (most major English speaking media outlets are owned by known right wingers), or there is a an anti-Islam bias in the media. There should be no different in definition when a Christian man murders his wife/children or when it is an Muslim man.... but there is one as the OP link proves.

Except that the difference should be be noted in a cultural discussion. If a decision to murder is promoted by a particular cultures interpretation of ethics (family honour in this case) it needs to be addressed differently by society then when a person acts outside of the accepted tradition of their culture. Even if both crimes are legally the same, the cause of each has to be addressed differently. You even stated that after imprisonment people commiting these crimes should be deported after serving time - this would need to be justified legally and to do so would require differenciating those acting from cultural tradition of what the "right wing" calls honour killings from those who are acting improperly in regard to their cultural upbringing.

In short, you seemingly want honour killers to be identified as such by law and treated differently, but when the media does it that's religious bias.

 

[PeteEU]

Except that the difference should be be noted in a cultural discussion. If a decision to murder is promoted by a particular cultures interpretation of ethics (family honour in this case) it needs to be addressed differently by society then when a person acts outside of the accepted tradition of their culture. Even if both crimes are legally the same, the cause of each has to be addressed differently. You even stated that after imprisonment people commiting these crimes should be deported after serving time - this would need to be justified legally and to do so would require differenciating those acting from cultural tradition of what the "right wing" calls honour killings from those who are acting improperly in regard to their cultural upbringing.

In short, you seemingly want honour killers to be identified as such by law and treated differently, but when the media does it that's religious bias.

Point taken.

But I see it as two different things.

On the legal front. Murder is murder. However must honour killings, like it or not, in the west do happen among immigrant populations. That is their tradition and as you correctly stated, it has no business in a western society. Therefore it is my strong conviction, that anyone convicted of such a crime should be kicked out of the country after serving his/her punishment... and that is even if they are naturalised citizens. Harsh crimes by naturalized citizens should void their citizenship. This also goes for all other major crimes also, but here we are talking about murder in conjunction with honour... which according to our laws is just murder. But the added factor of an intolerance to our society that has clearly left behind the days of honour based revenge, is a clear sign to me that said person frankly does not deserve to live in the civilized world and should be kicked back to wherever he/she came from. This opinion also goes for radical religious freaks of all faiths that want force the rest of us to do something via violence or advocating violence but that is another matter.

On the media front.. yes they are biased. They constantly link honour killings with muslims, where as when a non-muslim kills a family member then it is just murder. This is just a fact. They never state that most honour killings actually happen in hindu India, and not in the Islamic world. As I stated, last year or so, there was a case in the UK where a father killed his daughter and his wife, then set fire to their house to hide the crime, and then killed himself. Why? Because he was in over his head financially and could not stand the shame... shame is honour loss.. hence his murders were honour killings. So why was it not called honour killings? Oh yea he was white and a Christian.

Or how about a gangster that kills someone because he felt his honour was hurt by said person? Yes it is murder, gang related, but it is also an honour killing. But it is never reported as that. Or a man who kills his wife because she slept around.. murder yes, but also an honour killing. Fact is quite a few of our daily murders and assaults can be attributed to being honour related in some form, but only when a Muslim kills a family member over an honour issue, then it is called an honour killing.

 

[Tashah]

You're being disingenuous (a/k/a politically correct) here Pete.

Muslim Arabs themselves - in both Arabic and English - refer to such cultural violence as honor crimes.

 

[PeteEU]

You're being disingenuous (a/k/a politically correct) here Pete.

Muslim Arabs themselves - in both Arabic and English - refer to such cultural violence as honor crimes.

LOL seriously? So freaking what if Muslim Arabs call it honour crimes? Are you seriously saying that because Christian's and Jews dont call it that, then it does not exist in our societies? Are you that gullible? Does that mean that if we dont call murder for murder, then it will disappear? How about rape?

It is irrelevant what Muslim Arabs call it, because the media are the ones under the loop and it is them that are being biased against Muslims by not referring to honour crimes committed by non-Muslims as honour crimes. It has gotten so bad in the west, that by the mere mention of "Honour crime" then most people will directly associate it with a "Muslim crime"... and that frankly is almost as disgusting as the original crime it self.

And Christian Arabs practice "honour crimes" as well.. it is traditional not religious acts, just as Hindus practice it and just as Christians and Jews (some) practice it as well in various communities world wide.

 

[Tashah]

It is irrelevant what Muslim Arabs call it...

This gem of superiority is priceless :rofl

 

[PeteEU]

This gem of superiority is priceless :rofl

I would say my mind on this comment but I know you would just .. never mind. Your view is cloud by your circumstances.

 

[Medusa]

I'd have to agree with Pete's solution to the matter, but I'm bemused by the claims of Jewish and Christian honour killings. I wouldn't be surprised if could find a few cases that could be described as such, but it's dishonest to draw a comparison in scale. I'm sure a few atheists kill because of their "honour", but it in no way addresses the fact that it is largely a Arab and south-west Asian tribal tradition.

last year, in turkey an armenian christian girl had been killed by her brother because she had married a muslim.

 

[Medusa]

There is no such thing as "honour crime" under the law in western Europe.. there is in Turkey and India where honour crimes are traditional. It is a media and right wing made up definition of a mostly Islamic tradition (in the media's eyes and right wing). A man who kills his daughter in an "honour crime" is charged under the law with murder, not honour killing.

So yes I am seriously trying to state that their is either a pro-Christian bias in the media with the right wings help (most major English speaking media outlets are owned by known right wingers), or there is a an anti-Islam bias in the media. There should be no different in definition when a Christian man murders his wife/children or when it is an Muslim man.... but there is one as the OP link proves.

these kind of crimes are usually committed by kurds in turkey,it is not related to turks..
and arabs cant commit any honour crime, because their women are not different from slaves......but in turkey kurdish women have a right to revolt against her husband or father, but when they do such a thing, they are killed.. but arabian women are already a dead.....deads can not be killed anymore..you are a clever man,ı hope you understand what ı mean

also many women who are killed in germany are not turkish,too.

 

[PeteEU]

these kind of crimes are usually committed by kurds in turkey,it is not related to turks..
and arabs cant commit any honour crime, because their women are not different from slaves......but in turkey kurdish women have a right to revolt against her husband or father, but when they do such a thing, they are killed.. but arabian women are already a dead.....deads can not be killed anymore..you are a clever man,ı hope you understand what ı mean

also many women who are killed in germany are not turkish,too.

Some are, and we dont distinguish between the two. Fact is, when a Turk/Kurd does a so called honour killing, it has nothing to do with religion but the out dated traditions of the area they are from in Turkey... traditions that are often not even practised any more.

 

[Medusa]

Some are, and we dont distinguish between the two. Fact is, when a Turk/Kurd does a so called honour killing, it has nothing to do with religion but the out dated traditions of the area they are from in Turkey... traditions that are often not even practised any more.

but you dont understand me,you cant say that arabians are more civilized than turks:shock:

yes you mean something like that...

arabians have lots of primitive traditions and they still exist,because of this fact,their women cant behave like a free citizen so nobody has to kill them..first their laws punish them when these women attempt to elisit anything...you forget this but islamic cultures involve so many arabian facts...

 

[Medusa]

ı have to say that kurds still live as a part of their tribes in this country,so if they are regarded as a nation,you have to recognize their primitive traditions which can not be referred to turks.

and pkk doesnt do anything for their women!!they just go on killing our people in accordance with their primitivity .if this bloody organization claims to make everybody free,it first could start to make their women free..

 

[Grant]

ı have to say that kurds still live as a part of their tribes in this country,so if they are regarded as a nation,you have to recognize their primitive traditions which can not be referred to turks.

and pkk doesnt do anything for their women!!they just go on killing our people in accordance with their primitivity .if this bloody organization claims to make everybody free,it first could start to make their women free..

Perhaps being part of the EU would make them all free as well as moderately less primitive. Good idea?

 

[VanceMack]

'Honour' crimes against women in UK rising rapidly, figures show | UK news | The Guardian

This is an extremely sickening practice which has no part in UK society (or any other society for that matter)

"Statistics obtained under the Freedom of Information Act about such violence – which can include threats, abduction, acid attacks, beatings, forced marriage, mutilation and murder – show that in the 12 police force areas for which comparable data was available, reports went up by 47% in just a year."

Because of the increase, could this mean many more women are attempting to turn their backs on traditional practices, carried out in their country of origin?

Paul

rof Its not a 'crime' when it is done in the name of 'love'. Stop being such a hater...