Holocaust: How Guilty are the Poles?

[calamity]

One of the few areas where I've detected some revisionist history sliding into the realm of acceptance is in the Polish collaboration with Nazis in running the six death camps on Polish soil. When I was a kid, the Polish hatred of Jews was commonly known. Today, it seems that is no longer an acceptable argument.

So, the question to address is. What is true?

Well, let's start at the beginning.

From the founding of the Kingdom of Poland in 1025 through to the early years of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth created in 1569, Poland was the most tolerant country in Europe.[4] Known as paradisus iudaeorum (Latin for "Paradise of the Jews"),[5] it became a shelter for persecuted and expelled European Jewish communities and the home to the world's largest Jewish community of the time. According to some sources, about three-quarters of the world's Jews lived in Poland by the middle of the 16th century.[6][7][8] With the weakening of the Commonwealth and growing religious strife (due to the Protestant Reformation and Catholic Counter-Reformation), Poland's traditional tolerance[9] began to wane from the 17th century onward.

What happened? Simple answer: Russians. But, there were also Cassocks, Tatars, Ottomans and Swedes who upset that happy little apple cart. Long story short,

Jewish losses in those events were high, estimated by some historians to be close to 500,000...

The Jews bounced back, but the Polish nation never really recovered as it was invaded time and again until finally being fully occupied by Russians up until the end of WW1. But, then, **** just got worse.

In the aftermath of the Great War localized conflicts engulfed Eastern Europe between 1917 and 1919. Many attacks were launched against Jews during the Russian Civil War, the Polish-Ukrainian War, and the Polish–Soviet War ending with the Treaty of Riga. Almost half of the Jewish men perceived to have supported the Bolshevik Russia in these incidents were in their 20s.[70] Just after the end of World War I, the West became alarmed by reports about alleged massive pogroms in Poland against Jews.

However, it was more convenient to put lipstick on a pig. So...official reports stated that all the pogroms were "exaggerated," but the powers that be still wrote up a few special rules to protect Jews in Poland. And, for a while, things got better.

The result of the concerns over the fate of Poland's Jews was a series of explicit clauses in the Versailles Treaty signed by the Western powers, and President Paderewski,[78] protecting the rights of minorities in new Poland including Germans. In 1921, Poland's March Constitution gave the Jews the same legal rights as other citizens and guaranteed them religious tolerance and freedom of religious holidays.[79]

The number of Jews immigrating to Poland from Ukraine and Soviet Russia during the interwar period grew rapidly.

But, a few years later, as we all know, things got a whole lot worse.

Complex and long history shaped Polish attitudes towards the Jews and Jewish attitudes towards the Poles, but the anti-Jewish sentiment in Poland had reached its zenith in the years leading to the Second World War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland#The_Partitions_of_Poland

Really bad timing for that "zenith" thing to occur, because we all know what happened next.

 

[PeteEU]

Sorry but the problem is not Poles or Russians or Swedes... it is the Christian Church and especially the Catholic Church.

The Christian world has been in denial for centuries as it hid the dark truth of its intolerance of other faiths including branches within its own.

The religious wars of the 1400s to arguably 1945, we're driven on hatred and bigotry.

The irony is, that the only places Jews were safe and near equals was in the Islamic world until the end of the Ottoman Empire. Many don't know, but the Prime minister post in the Ottoman Empire was more than often held by a Jew.

In Poland, Jews were hunted as the OP pointed out, but that was not unique to Poland. It happened everywhere to one degree or another. Spain purged it's Jews pretty much during the time period. In France up to 40% of the population was slaughtered because of religion and a lot of Jews got killed in this mass slaughter.. the list goes on.

So now we are in the 21st century and the same intolerance of other faiths still exists in the Christian faith... both openly and behind closed doors.

But saying all this.. intolerance of other faiths is hardly unique to Christians.



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[calamity]

Sorry but the problem is not Poles or Russians or Swedes... it is the Christian Church and especially the Catholic Church.

This is seriously true. From what I have been reading, if there was a driving force behind hatred of the Jews in Poland before the Nazis unleashed it for real, it was the Catholic Church.

The Christian world has been in denial for centuries as it hid the dark truth of its intolerance of other faiths including branches within its own.

The religious wars of the 1400s to arguably 1945, we're driven on hatred and bigotry.

The irony is, that the only places Jews were safe and near equals was in the Islamic world until the end of the Ottoman Empire. Many don't know, but the Prime minister post in the Ottoman Empire was more than often held by a Jew.

Yes. Jews lived reasonably well in the Middle East until about the mid-1950's.

In Poland, Jews were hunted as the OP pointed out, but that was not unique to Poland. It happened everywhere to one degree or another. Spain purged it's Jews pretty much during the time period. In France up to 40% of the population was slaughtered because of religion and a lot of Jews got killed in this mass slaughter.. the list goes on.

So now we are in the 21st century and the same intolerance of other faiths still exists in the Christian faith... both openly and behind closed doors.

But saying all this.. intolerance of other faiths is hardly unique to Christians.



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A country often left out but should not be since it is back to being up to its old tricks is Hungary.

 

[PeteEU]

This is seriously true. From what I have been reading, if there was a driving force behind hatred of the Jews in Poland before the Nazis unleashed it for real, it was the Catholic Church.


Yes. Jews lived reasonably well in the Middle East until about the mid-1950's.



A country often left out but should not be since it is back to being up to its old tricks is Hungary.

Hungary yes.. but again it is the Catholic Church.... not the modern day one but historically... as in back when Church and state were often the same thing.

Basically what we call anti-semitism today is ancient catholic church propoganda that has become part of lore and society.


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[OldFatGuy]

-The irony is, that the only places Jews were safe and near equals was in the Islamic world until the end of the Ottoman Empire. Many don't know, but the Prime minister post in the Ottoman Empire was more than often held by a Jew.

Not quite true. No Jew was ever PM of the Ottoman Empire. During the Moorish occupation of Iberia, most of southern France, most of the Italian Peninsula, the PM of Iberia was often a Jew, known for their management skills. Those Jews who survived forced conversions by Mohamed's followers allied themselves with the Moors for self protection. Being that more than a third of Morocco's population was Jewish, and this is where the Moors originated, already existing mutual cultural trust paved the way. By the early 1300's the Moorish empire was suffering a decline from within, eventually withdrawing from holdings in southern Europe. Southern Europe and the Catholic Church were reeling. The Church started the Inquisition to rid the region of muslim influences, and their allies the Jews were easy targets, as the Church used the Talmud to reinvigorate itself, and simultaneously rid themselves of another target and enemy, the Cathars who founded by Mary Magdalene in France, believe each man or woman could pray at any time, without churches, church wealth or priests. Antithetical to the desires of the Catholic Church and the Vatican which sought wealth, and power through divine rule. Millions died in the Church's genocide.

Jews from most of southern Europe fled north, where they found homes in Poland, Russia, other eastern European nations. The English first welcomed Jews, then borrowed their money, kicked them out rather than pay them back. The irony, many Jews fled to the Americas, using their literacy and math skills to manage the Portuguese and Spanish empires as they his their religious beliefs.

In Poland, Jews were hunted as the OP pointed out, but that was not unique to Poland. It happened everywhere to one degree or another. Spain purged it's Jews pretty much during the time period. In France up to 40% of the population was slaughtered because of religion and a lot of Jews got killed in this mass slaughter.. the list goes on.

This is not what happened in Poland. Many can argue that both Poland and Russia had the largest Jewish populations. It doesn't matter. What is important as the Cossacks rose in south eastern Russia, mostly in Ukraine, the Tsars co-oped the mostly Tartar membership, neither Christian nor muslim, directing Cossack violence toward the Jews, who had kept themselves segregated for cultural reasons, and never fought back. Others joined in the persecution for spoils. When Russia occupied Poland, they brought the pograms and hate with them. Anti semitism grew in Poland with massive proportions, and theft, rape and murder in the Jewish communities.

Jews were never safe under the Ottomons, no non Turks were safe under the Ottomons. Jews were rarely safe anywhere in Europe. Know what you are speaking about before speaking. Learn history as it was, not as you distort it. Yet you, no doubt, negate the existence of Israel. Your prejudices slipped out during too many of your posts for you to cover up. Ignorance creates prejudice.

 

[OldFatGuy]

This is seriously true. From what I have been reading, if there was a driving force behind hatred of the Jews in Poland before the Nazis unleashed it for real, it was the Catholic Church.


Yes. Jews lived reasonably well in the Middle East until about the mid-1950's.



A country often left out but should not be since it is back to being up to its old tricks is Hungary.

Not true at all. Forced to pay a tax to pray in one's own faith is not living reasonably well. The large Jewish populations of Morocco, Iran, Syria and smaller pockets elsewhere started fleeing during WWII, eventually settling in Israel, parts of southern Europe, and the Americas. More than half of Morocco's Jewish population, a third of Morocco, settled in Brazil. You can hear more Arabic than Portuguese in the Rug Markets of Brasilia and Rio. There are few muslims. It was the influence of the Eastern Orthodox Church which sparked and carried through antisemitism in both Russia and Poland. Today, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the largest competitor other than atheism, for the Catholic Church in Poland.

I've already answered the nonsense about the mideast.

The Magyar have always considered themselves above all of Europe, and still maintain their own presence in Hungary. Old tricks? You neglect the force and culture of the Austro Hungarian Empire, whose demise and failure from within set the stage and the excuse for WWI.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Hungary yes.. but again it is the Catholic Church.... not the modern day one but historically... as in back when Church and state were often the same thing.

Basically what we call anti-semitism today is ancient catholic church propoganda that has become part of lore and society.

Again, the Catholic Church remained a relatively small presence in Hungary. Learn history.

 

[calamity]

Not true at all. Forced to pay a tax to pray in one's own faith is not living reasonably well. The large Jewish populations of Morocco, Iran, Syria and smaller pockets elsewhere started fleeing during WWII, eventually settling in Israel, parts of southern Europe, and the Americas. More than half of Morocco's Jewish population, a third of Morocco, settled in Brazil. You can hear more Arabic than Portuguese in the Rug Markets of Brasilia and Rio. There are few muslims. It was the influence of the Eastern Orthodox Church which sparked and carried through antisemitism in both Russia and Poland. Today, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the largest competitor other than atheism, for the Catholic Church in Poland.

I've already answered the nonsense about the mideast.

The Magyar have always considered themselves above all of Europe, and still maintain their own presence in Hungary. Old tricks? You neglect the force and culture of the Austro Hungarian Empire, whose demise and failure from within set the stage and the excuse for WWI.

Everything is relative. And, relative to Holocaust and pogroms, the anti-semitism in the Middle East pre 1950 was a walk in the park....albeit a walk they had to pay for which also required them to stay on the marked paths.

Antisemitism in the Arab world increased greatly in the 20th century, for several reasons: the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire and traditional Islamic society; European influence, brought about by Western imperialism and Arab Christians;[1] Nazi propaganda;[2] resentment over Jewish nationalism (see Zionism); and the rise of Arab nationalism.

Traditionally, Jews in the Muslim world were considered to be People of the Book and were given dhimmi status. They were afforded relative security against persecution, provided they did not contest the inferior social and legal status imposed on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

 

[OldFatGuy]

Everything is relative. And, relative to Holocaust and pogroms, the anti-semitism in the Middle East pre 1950 was a walk in the park....albeit a walk they had to pay for which also required them to stay on the marked paths.

Over the centuries there were many physical violent attacks against Jews in the islamic communities. But none of it reached the proportions witnesses in Europe, until the rise of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who advised the Nazis to commit the final solution. Plus he is the grandfather of modern terrorism against the US and Europe. No slouch at hate, nor the use of violence for killing all and any, including fellow muslims. A infected pimple on God's rump.

Now the shoe is on the other foot, Israelis are as good at killing and torture as everyone else, if not better, and the world cries foul. Too bad the world taught Jews how to kill to protect themselves, and take personal pleasure in doing so,

If you bother to read the koran in Arabic, with it nuances, you realize Jews were not people of the book, but the preceding Samaritans, who are not Jews despite wiki entries to the contrary, who's supernatural powers true or not scared the crap out of uncle Mo were so cited. The Samaritans had a monotheistic religion, partly adopted by the Jews, but they were extant long before Jews were playing shepherd in the desert. With their own temple, built on Mount Gerizim when Alexander held Egypt and its substates. The Jews when they arrived in Canaan did their best to demonize the Samaritans, seeing them as an established competition. Democrats vs Republicans, in either direction. Giving the fable of the Good Samaritan a very different meaning,

Never trust a wiki,

 

[calamity]

Over the centuries there were many physical violent attacks against Jews in the islamic communities. But none of it reached the proportions witnesses in Europe, until the rise of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who advised the Nazis to commit the final solution. Plus he is the grandfather of modern terrorism against the US and Europe. No slouch at hate, nor the use of violence for killing all and any, including fellow muslims. A infected pimple on God's rump.

Now the shoe is on the other foot, Israelis are as good at killing and torture as everyone else, if not better, and the world cries foul. Too bad the world taught Jews how to kill to protect themselves, and take personal pleasure in doing so,

If you bother to read the koran in Arabic, with it nuances, you realize Jews were not people of the book, but the preceding Samaritans, who are not Jews despite wiki entries to the contrary, who's supernatural powers true or not scared the crap out of uncle Mo were so cited. The Samaritans had a monotheistic religion, partly adopted by the Jews, but they were extant long before Jews were playing shepherd in the desert. With their own temple, built on Mount Gerizim when Alexander held Egypt and its substates. The Jews when they arrived in Canaan did their best to demonize the Samaritans, seeing them as an established competition. Democrats vs Republicans, in either direction. Giving the fable of the Good Samaritan a very different meaning,

Never trust a wiki,

Bold: Not the only Jew-Hating nut to back the Nazis back then.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Bold: Not the only Jew-Hating nut to back the Nazis back then.

As sick, twisted and demented as they were, the Nazis, with all their evil were a symptom. A symptom that will rise again, sadly.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Not guilty.

While antisemitism was not unknown in Poland, there was nothing equivalent to the systematic industrial scale genocide that the Nazis carried out.

 

[calamity]

Not guilty.

While antisemitism was not unknown in Poland, there was nothing equivalent to the systematic industrial scale genocide that the Nazis carried out.

...on Polish soil.

I really do not see how that can be swept under the rug.

 

[Jredbaron96]

...on Polish soil.

I really do not see how that can be swept under the rug.

After Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany. Not of their own accord.

 

[calamity]

After Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany. Not of their own accord.

This is most certainly true. But, we also know a lot of Poles participated in humiliating the Jews, and many of them did not exactly make the Nazi persecution of Jews more difficult.

Trains kept running on time, right through the heart of Poland, for example. And, no one living in towns near the death camps: Sobibor, Majdenik, Treblinka, Belzic, Chelmno, or Auschwitz did a whole lot to disrupt the flow. In fact, they did nothing.

I'm not sure I can give them a pass on that.

 

[Jredbaron96]

This is most certainly true. But, we also know a lot of Poles participated in humiliating the Jews, and many of them did not exactly make the Nazi persecution of Jews more difficult.

Many Polish did aid the Nazis. So did many French, Dutch, Russians, Yugoslavs, Italians, Greeks, Hungarians, Romanians, Danes, Norwegians, Ukrainians, Baltics. There were collaborators in every German occupied country.

Trains kept running on time, right through the heart of Poland, for example. And, no one living in towns near the death camps: Sobibor, Majdenik, Treblinka, Belzic, Chelmno, or Auschwitz did a whole lot to disrupt the flow. In fact, they did nothing.

I can't believe you're actually saying that.

The The Żegota Council for the Aid of the Jews was founded in September 1942 by Polish people trying to save Jews. In fact of the Polish Jews that survived the war, nearly half of them (~50,000) were because of the Zegota Council. Polish people organized breakouts from concentration camps, uprisings, and smuggled Jews out of Ghettos.

Many Poles gave their lives to save their Jewish brothers and sisters. To suggest otherwise is downright disgusting.

 

[calamity]

Many Polish did aid the Nazis. So did many French, Dutch, Russians, Yugoslavs, Italians, Greeks, Hungarians, Romanians, Danes, Norwegians, Ukrainians, Baltics. There were collaborators in every German occupied country.

But only Poland had Death Camps, six of them to be exact.

I can't believe you're actually saying that.

The The Żegota Council for the Aid of the Jews was founded in September 1942 by Polish people trying to save Jews. In fact of the Polish Jews that survived the war, nearly half of them (~50,000) were because of the Zegota Council. Polish people organized breakouts from concentration camps, uprisings, and smuggled Jews out of Ghettos.

Many Poles gave their lives to save their Jewish brothers and sisters. To suggest otherwise is downright disgusting.

I'd have to read up on that before I can comment. And, I will.


Note: You have to admit, being the home of six death camps where close to 6 million Jews were slaughtered does raise eyebrows. At the very least, it makes people wonder: "why there?" And, I have very little doubt that there was more to it than, "well, that's where all the Jews were."

 

[Jredbaron96]

But only Poland had Death Camps, six of them to be exact.

And even though only 60,000 Poles were killed during the German invasion, by the end of the war there would be 6 million dead Poles; victims of the Nazi occupation.

I'd have to read up on that before I can comment.

The Polish, Yugoslavs, and Soviets resisted the Germans far greater than any other occupied territory within the Reich. That should be remembered before you go off accusing the Poles of allowing the Holocaust to happen.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Note: You have to admit, being the home of six death camps where close to 6 million Jews were slaughtered does raise eyebrows. At the very least, it makes people wonder: "why there?" And, I have very little doubt that there was more to it than, "well, that's where all the Jews were."

No, actually, I don't. Poland was strategically significant because it was closest in fact to the largest populations of Jews in Europe, in Poland and Russia. If it had been more convenient to put the camps in say, Greece, the Nazis would've done that.

 

[calamity]

And even though only 60,000 Poles were killed during the German invasion, by the end of the war there would be 6 million dead Poles; victims of the Nazi occupation.

Almost all of them Jews.

The Polish, Yugoslavs, and Soviets resisted the Germans far greater than any other occupied territory within the Reich. That should be remembered before you go off accusing the Poles of allowing the Holocaust to happen.

Soviets, yes. They actually beat them back.

Yugoslavs? Depends on who we're talking about. Partisans yes. Chetniks not so much. And, the Ustashe Croats were probably just as bad, if not worse, than the Nazis, especially when it came to murdering Serbs. I'd probably not bring up Yugoslavia in this discussion, if you know what I mean.

Non-Jew Poles resisted alright, for about a week.

 

[calamity]

No, actually, I don't. Poland was strategically significant because it was closest in fact to the largest populations of Jews in Europe, in Poland and Russia. If it had been more convenient to put the camps in say, Greece, the Nazis would've done that.

Auschwitz is a long way from Budapest. Just saying.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Almost all of them Jews.

Half of them. The other 3 million were not.

Mind you had the Nazis won the war there would be no Polish people at all. The Poles were subhuman to the Nazis and their ultimate fate was to be exterminated after the USSR was defeated.

Yugoslavs? Depends on who we're talking about. Partisans yes. Chetniks not so much. And, the Ustashe Croats were probably just as bad, if not worse, than the Nazis, especially when it came to murdering Serbs. I'd probably not bring up Yugoslavia in this discussion, if you know what I mean.

You've already demonstrated you are sorely lacking on this subject so I'd advise you not to try to act as if you know more about this than I do.

Non-Jew Poles resisted alright, for about a week.

Poland's resistance movement was the largest in all of Europe. Over the course of it's existence it carried out more than 25,000 acts of sabotage, damaged railway wagons on 19,000 occasions, damaged or destroyed 4,300 Werhmacht military vehicles, and blew up 38 railway bridges, between January 1941 to June 1944.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Auschwitz is a long way from Budapest. Just saying.

And the Hungarians resisted German efforts more or less until 1944 when their country was occupied. Funny how that works out.

 

[OldFatGuy]

After Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany. Not of their own accord.

Not quite true. Many Poles, like their Lithuanian and Ukrainian cousins gladly joined in the abuse and extermination of Jews and other "undesirables" volunteering to bring in the prisoners, confiscate their holdings and work as guards at the camps. Unlike relatively tiny Denmark, the Polish people did very little to protect the vulnerable and much to make things worse, at time profiting from the situation. In Denmark, the morning after German occupiers ordered all Jews to wear a yellow star on their chests, the King of Denmark emerged wearing a yellow star on his chest. By the end of the day every Danish citizen was wearing a yellow star on their chests.

By contrast, when the Warsaw uprising chased those badass German soldiers out of the ghetto, the Polish resistance, sat out the uprising, refusing to help Jews.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Many Polish did aid the Nazis. So did many French, Dutch, Russians, Yugoslavs, Italians, Greeks, Hungarians, Romanians, Danes, Norwegians, Ukrainians, Baltics. There were collaborators in every German occupied country.



I can't believe you're actually saying that.

The The Żegota Council for the Aid of the Jews was founded in September 1942 by Polish people trying to save Jews. In fact of the Polish Jews that survived the war, nearly half of them (~50,000) were because of the Zegota Council. Polish people organized breakouts from concentration camps, uprisings, and smuggled Jews out of Ghettos.

Many Poles gave their lives to save their Jewish brothers and sisters. To suggest otherwise is downright disgusting.

How many millions of Polish Jews died?

There are always a few righteous men, but not righteous peoples. The Zegota Council was a complete failure, expediting less than 2,000 children out of the country, north to Scandinavia during 1942 and then all efforts stopped. Their own records show they were more mouth than action, escorting red cross representatives to special camps designed to show Jews in captivity living well. They were part of the German propaganda show.