Holocaust: How Guilty are the Poles?

[calamity]

With good rail connections. And nearer to Budapest than to Munich or Frankfurt, let alone Berlin.

They slapped up the Sobibir extermination annex in less than two months. And, ripped it down, buried it and covered the place with trees in less than two weeks. So, why not build a death camp in the outskirts of Budapest upon occupation?

Because the Polish thing was working like a dream. That's why.

 

[calamity]

It was by then (the establishment of the death camps) not really Poland anymore but an occupation zone governed exclusively be a Nazi governor general and a German Nazi administration with no Pole having any say whatsoever.

This does appear to be true. Although there is fairly reasonable evidence that the Poles served as useful purpose to the Nazis running the death camps.

As German authorities implemented killing on an industrial scale, they drew upon Polish police forces and railroad personnel for logistical support, notably to guard ghettos where hundreds of thousands of Jewish men, women, and children were held before deportation to killing centers. The so-called Blue Police was a force some 20,000 strong.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/poland-holocaust-death-camps/552455/

The location was convenient to the German Nazis in that there they could pursue their ambitions of extermination, while the location was also sufficiently far away from prying eyes of the rest of the world. And, not to be forgotten, from possibly raised eyebrows at home (the Nazis weren't all that keen on letting their own people know). While still being sufficiently central to allow comparatively easy logistics.

Remember how late the Western Allies caught on to the death camps? There you have it.

Poland didn't have death camps, the Germans had them in Poland. With the regime that they installed there making the occupation of France look like a summer camp.

I'd suggest, and it seems to be supported, that the reason these death camps in Poland were safe from "prying eyes" was because the Poles hated Jews even more than did your average German. As shown in the op, the Jew thing in Poland was hundreds of years in the making. In Germany it was mostly just the making of a gang of lunatics called Nazis who then fired up the base.

In Poland, not much firing up was needed. The Poles took to the idea of hating and killing Jews well.

 

[Chagos]

They slapped up the Sobibir extermination annex in less than two months. And, ripped it down, buried it and covered the place with trees in less than two weeks. So, why not build a death camp in the outskirts of Budapest upon occupation?

Because the Polish thing was working like a dream. That's why.

If by that you mean the camp(s) in Poland, yes.

One also need remember that they exercised far more suppressive control in Poland than in practically any other country they occupied.

 

[Jredbaron96]

There is no debate. You'll find those photos (notice the plural) in the archives of Life, the NYT, The Herald American, Le Monde, The London Telegraph among many other sources.

Knock that chip off your should and we might speak again, but I doubt it.

No, I won't. Because it didn't happen.

The King wearing the Star of David in support of the Jews was a fictitious but nice sounding bit of propaganda made up by Danish Americans and the British. It never happened.

But if it's so common, feel free to post one. I'm sure there's one lying around the internet if you're telling the truth.

But you won't; just another outsourced claim that you refuse to actually prove. Cowardice is a really bad quality, just so you know.

"It's like being the only redhead in your third grade class."

After that bit of sillyness, I couldn't stop laughing. Hutu hate Tutu and they look exactly the same, and they keep killing each other.

And red headed women are dangerous. But you would never understand that. It takes a mature man with experience to understand the danger, and he will buy her diamonds, emeralds and rubies anyway. :rofl

Who the **** are you talking to

 

[Chagos]

This does appear to be true. Although there is fairly reasonable evidence that the Poles served as useful purpose to the Nazis running the death camps.






I'd suggest, and it seems to be supported, that the reason these death camps in Poland were safe from "prying eyes" was because the Poles hated Jews even more than did your average German. As shown in the op, the Jew thing in Poland was hundreds of years in the making. In Germany it was mostly just the making of a gang of lunatics called Nazis who then fired up the base.

In Poland, not much firing up was needed. The Poles took to the idea of hating and killing Jews well.

Not to be misunderstood, I did not enter this discourse to make any excuses for definitely existing Polish Jew hatred, then and/or now.

The absence of prying eyes was caused (to the extent it can be achieved at all) by the convenience of the location. Far enough away but near enough to serve demands of logistics. Also the Generalgouvernement that the Nazis imposed on this third of Poland (the Western third having been annexed and the Eastern third having gone to the Soviets) was the most oppressive occupation zone that the Nazis ever imposed anywhere during WWII. Practically under lock-down and out of bounds for anyone not belonging to Nazi personnel needed in running it.

Local Poles were systematically starved or dragged off to forced labor (where they eventually also starved). One gigantic concentration camp with individual concentration camps within.

As such the state of Poland had ceased to exist, other than any other Nazi occupied state.

 

[calamity]

If by that you mean the camp(s) in Poland, yes.

One also need remember that they exercised far more suppressive control in Poland than in practically any other country they occupied.

It certainly was not a picnic to be under the Nazis. And, the Poles did have it much worse than, say, the French--who also kissed German ass and handed them Jews on a silver platter. But, no one built death camps in France, with the stench of roasting corpses filling the air for miles around. Apparently this was no problem in Poland. And, the op explains perhaps why.

 

[Chagos]

It certainly was not a picnic to be under the Nazis. And, the Poles did have it much worse than, say, the French--who also kissed German ass and handed them Jews on a silver platter. But, no one built death camps in France, with the stench of roasting corpses filling the air for miles around. Apparently this was no problem in Poland. And, the op explains perhaps why.

To me it's pretty clear that existing Jew hatred in Poland played a lesser role in having picked its central part as location for the death camps. The envisaged end game was to exterminate the Polish population as well, which, unlike the French, was considered as Untermensch anyway.

One also has to remember that the overall complex of Auschwitz comprised some 40 square kilometres, any Polish population driven away well before the camps were erected in its middle. That didn't leave many locals to sniff the ovens.

I visited there once and even with re-population having occurred since the end of WWII, the place still gives some impression of being in the middle of nowhere.

One couldn't have pulled that off in France.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Who the **** are you talking to

You. Thanks for the laughs.

 

[calamity]

To me it's pretty clear that existing Jew hatred in Poland played a lesser role in having picked its central part as location for the death camps. The envisaged end game was to exterminate the Polish population as well, which, unlike the French, was considered as Untermensch anyway.

One also has to remember that the overall complex of Auschwitz comprised some 40 square kilometres, any Polish population driven away well before the camps were erected in its middle. That didn't leave many locals to sniff the ovens.

I visited there once and even with re-population having occurred since the end of WWII, the place still gives some impression of being in the middle of nowhere.

One couldn't have pulled that off in France.

I agree, and not just because France is more densely populated.

One of the docs I watched recently showed how eagerly the Polish population was to jump on persecuting the Jews. The Nazis did not have a hard sell there. If anything, I'd say the Nazis unleashed something that was itching to get out for decades, if not generations.

 

[Chagos]

I agree, and not just because France is more densely populated.

One of the docs I watched recently showed how eagerly the Polish population was to jump on persecuting the Jews. The Nazis did not have a hard sell there. If anything, I'd say the Nazis unleashed something that was itching to get out for decades, if not generations.

Oh, they had their last pogrom well into 1946, Germans long since driven out.

But the Nazis had to sell nothing there. When you hold the whip, sales talk is unnecessary.

 

[Jredbaron96]

You. Thanks for the laughs.

**** off dude. The only people laughing here are the ones reading your posts.

 

[OldFatGuy]

**** off dude. The only people laughing here are the ones reading your posts.

I am not the one who has lost his self control. Nor am I who misunderstand the power and representation offered by legends. "Myths are reality for believers" Joe Campbell.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I am not the one who has lost his self control. Nor am I who misunderstand the power and representation offered by legends. "Myths are reality for believers" Joe Campbell.

"Lost his self-control"

Don't delude yourself into thinking you're actually worth getting emotional over. Just accept the fact that you refuse to back up anything you say and get on with your life.

 

[OldFatGuy]

"Lost his self-control"

Don't delude yourself into thinking you're actually worth getting emotional over. Just accept the fact that you refuse to back up anything you say and get on with your life.

Who knows? One day you may get over yourself, stop broadcasting the acrimony and listen to others. Life doesn't function at your demands. Chaos rules.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Who knows? One day you may get over yourself, stop broadcasting the acrimony and listen to others. Life doesn't function at your demands. Chaos rules.

You can stop pretending to be the wise old man here. You're not fooling anyone. Literally all you do here is make some proclamations, and the moment someone challenges it you insist it's just true and refuse to back it up. You've done this for a year and it's not fooling anyone. You didn't provide any sources back then, you aren't providing any right now, and then when you get called out for it you spout garbage that sounds like it comes from a bad fortune cookie.

 

[calamity]

I heard an interesting line in a doc the other night.

Jews hated Russia. Russians were antisemitic.
Jews hated Poland. Poles were antisemitic.
Jews loved Germany. In Germany they felt like they belonged.

There is much that can be gleaned from that. Mostly, it's like I stated earlier. Getting Poles to go along with murdering millions of Jews was easy. They did not have to be convinced to hate Jews like the German people. Poles already hated them. And, Hitler and Himmler knew that they would never be able to kill Jews en masse in Germany. Poland, however, would be no problem.

 

[Chagos]

I heard an interesting line in a doc the other night.

Jews hated Russia. Russians were antisemitic.
Jews hated Poland. Poles were antisemitic.
Jews loved Germany. In Germany they felt like they belonged.

There is much that can be gleaned from that. Mostly, it's like I stated earlier. Getting Poles to go along with murdering millions of Jews was easy. They did not have to be convinced to hate Jews like the German people. Poles already hated them. And, Hitler and Himmler knew that they would never be able to kill Jews en masse in Germany. Poland, however, would be no problem.

......and as I pointed out earlier one should be leery of applying simplistic answers to more complex issues.

For one thing Jew hatred always existed to some extent in Germany as well, for another there was never any need to convince any Pole to hate Jews so that they could be killed more easily there.

The Poles were simply not asked but rather shot at the drop of a hat over just about anything. The General Governate that the Germans imposed was a concentration camp of itself.

 

[calamity]

......and as I pointed out earlier one should be leery of applying simplistic answers to more complex issues.

For one thing Jew hatred always existed to some extent in Germany as well, for another there was never any need to convince any Pole to hate Jews so that they could be killed more easily there.

The Poles were simply not asked but rather shot at the drop of a hat over just about anything. The General Governate that the Germans imposed was a concentration camp of itself.

And, hats off the the Brits and French for at least trying to liberate Poland. Dishonorable mention to the US for doing nothing until Japan attacked it.

Speaking of dishonor, it could be said all counties acted dishonorably for refusing to accept Jewish refugees after Nazis annexed Austria and began stripping Jews of freedom and property. Poland is not alone in its disregard for Jews. But it is alone for being the home of death camps.

 

[Chagos]

~................................Speaking of dishonor, it could be said all counties acted dishonorably for refusing to accept Jewish refugees after Nazis annexed Austria and began stripping Jews of freedom and property.

Yes, absolutely digraceful.

Poland is not alone in its disregard for Jews. But it is alone for being the home of death camps.

But not responsible for them.

 

[calamity]

Yes, absolutely digraceful.But not responsible for them.

I agree that Poles are not in any way shape or form responsible for those camps or what happened in them. But, I believe it fair to point a finger at them and say, "You didn't exactly make it difficult for the German bastards either."

I am open to discussing excuses. And, of those, I am sure that there are many justifiable ones. But, whitewashing their guilt away completely, which is the direction revisionist history is taking it, is not justified.

 

[Chagos]

I agree that Poles are not in any way shape or form responsible for those camps or what happened in them. But, I believe it fair to point a finger at them and say, "You didn't exactly make it difficult for the German bastards either."

Well, one can do that but to me that seems kind of cheap.

The Polish Home Army, the underground resistance movement that was hopelessly out-numbered and out-gunned, saved more Jewish lives during the Holocaust than any other Western Allied organization or government of any Nazi-occupied state. Including the organizing of escapes from Auschwitz.

I am open to discussing excuses. And, of those, I am sure that there are many justifiable ones. But, whitewashing their guilt away completely, which is the direction revisionist history is taking it, is not justified.

I'm not even interested in discussing excuses for existing anti-semitism in Poland (then and now), if this thread is to serve history as the sub-forum indicates, then I'm interested in historical facts.

And that means any guilt of "the Poles" is impossible to establish. Individual collaborators, and be they in large groups, notwithstanding.

 

[calamity]

Well, one can do that but to me that seems kind of cheap.

The Polish Home Army, the underground resistance movement that was hopelessly out-numbered and out-gunned, saved more Jewish lives during the Holocaust than any other Western Allied organization or government of any Nazi-occupied state. Including the organizing of escapes from Auschwitz.

Certainly this is worthy of discussion. Can you provide some links describing exactly what the non-Jewish Poles did to aid Jews?

I'm not even interested in discussing excuses for existing anti-semitism in Poland (then and now), if this thread is to serve history as the sub-forum indicates, then I'm interested in historical facts.

And that means any guilt of "the Poles" is impossible to establish. Individual collaborators, and be they in large groups, notwithstanding.

Correct it is history. And, the theme of my thread is the blast the rewriting of it to whitewash wrongdoing on the part of the Poles.

 

[Tigerace117]

Auschwitz is a long way from Budapest. Just saying.

But the camps in Poland were much more "conveniently" located in terms of bringing in people from Russia, the Baltic States, and Ukraine as well as Eastern Europe as a whole......which is why they were located there in the first place.

 

[Chagos]

Certainly this is worthy of discussion. Can you provide some links describing exactly what the non-Jewish Poles did to aid Jews?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holocaust

Okay, it's a wiki and researching further is always prudent in such cases.

I haven't read it all so I assume it does not deal (seeing its heading) with those Poles being quite happy to see the Jews gone. Nor, for that matter, even with those Poles of such disposition that were even in the underground.

Indeed one should avoid any narrative of the whole Polish nation having stood as one in support of the Jews, it didn't.

Nevertheless, if one seeks examples of complicity with the Nazis in their persecution of Jews, Hungary would serve as a far better example. Mainly because, other than Poland, it remained a state and had its own government, said government having allied itself with Germany until things got rougher after Stalingrad.

Of course, real mass deportations didn't take place there until after Hungary tried to do an Italy on Germany and was subsequently occupied, but "the Hungarians" themselves did already kill Jews on a smaller scale before that.

Correct it is history. And, the theme of my thread is the blast the rewriting of it to whitewash wrongdoing on the part of the Poles.

Wrongdoing on the part of the Poles is indisputable, except for Poles. That still doesn't allow for summary condemnation though.

 

[Chagos]

But the camps in Poland were much more "conveniently" located in terms of bringing in people from Russia, the Baltic States, and Ukraine as well as Eastern Europe as a whole......which is why they were located there in the first place.

.............and Auschwitz is a mere 430 or so kms from Budapest. That's no distance.

In fact it was that near or almost that near to all of the other locations you mentioned.