• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Holocaust: How Guilty are the Poles?

And even though only 60,000 Poles were killed during the German invasion, by the end of the war there would be 6 million dead Poles; victims of the Nazi occupation.

It was estimated that 5.5 million Poles dies during Allied bombardments, and Russian artillery fire killing more than 75% of those who died during the war. It's better to say they were victims of those trying to liberate them.

More French citizens died during Allied bombing runs, the Normandy invasion, and the ongoing battles with the Nazis than during the entire remainder of the occupation. Despite all the contrary propaganda, the French were not happy with the Allied invasion.
 
Not quite true. Many Poles, like their Lithuanian and Ukrainian cousins gladly joined in the abuse and extermination of Jews and other "undesirables" volunteering to bring in the prisoners, confiscate their holdings and work as guards at the camps. Unlike relatively tiny Denmark, the Polish people did very little to protect the vulnerable and much to make things worse, at time profiting from the situation. In Denmark, the morning after German occupiers ordered all Jews to wear a yellow star on their chests, the King of Denmark emerged wearing a yellow star on his chest. By the end of the day every Danish citizen was wearing a yellow star on their chests.

By contrast, when the Warsaw uprising chased those badass German soldiers out of the ghetto, the Polish resistance, sat out the uprising, refusing to help Jews.

All four of my grandparents came from Poland around the time of the first world war. I can tell you definitely that there was a very strong anti-Jewish strain that runs through Polish Catholics, particularly those from rural areas. You are correct that the Polish people and the Catholic church did precious little to oppose the horrible German policies and the deep seated prejudice against Jews played a big role in this.
 
Hungary yes.. but again it is the Catholic Church.... not the modern day one but historically... as in back when Church and state were often the same thing.

Basically what we call anti-semitism today is ancient catholic church propoganda that has become part of lore and society.


Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk

Hard core Protestants have been saying this for decades. Perhaps Ian Paisley was correct.
 
I wonder if prejudice against the Polish is how the expression "I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot Pole" came about.
 
Half of them. The other 3 million were not.

Mind you had the Nazis won the war there would be no Polish people at all. The Poles were subhuman to the Nazis and their ultimate fate was to be exterminated after the USSR was defeated.
It's actually closer to 2 million non-Jewish Poles. And, very few if any were shoved into ovens.

You've already demonstrated you are sorely lacking on this subject so I'd advise you not to try to act as if you know more about this than I do.
I stand by my statement: I would not recommend bringing the "heroism" of Yugoslavia into this discussion, it will not end well. They were as brutal if not more so than the Nazis. One reason hell boiled over in the 90's was because of the pent up anger still lingering from those days.

Poland's resistance movement was the largest in all of Europe. Over the course of it's existence it carried out more than 25,000 acts of sabotage, damaged railway wagons on 19,000 occasions, damaged or destroyed 4,300 Werhmacht military vehicles, and blew up 38 railway bridges, between January 1941 to June 1944.
They resisted in that they tried to sabotage an invader and occupation force. They did not trip over themselves to save Jews, which is really what a war crimes in Poland thread is about
 
All four of my grandparents came from Poland around the time of the first world war. I can tell you definitely that there was a very strong anti-Jewish strain that runs through Polish Catholics, particularly those from rural areas. You are correct that the Polish people and the Catholic church did precious little to oppose the horrible German policies and the deep seated prejudice against Jews played a big role in this.

What is poignant to me, during WWI and other wars, like in Germany, many Jews fought honorably for Poland. The lists of Jewish Polish artists who contributed to Polish culture is endless. We gained Arthur Rubinstein, alone a gift from God.

Prejudices against Jews was common throughout Eastern Europe.


BTW there's another novel which can drastically modify a 14 year old's life. One in which the protagonist picks his nose, J.D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye. Ah, to be young again.:)
 
Last edited:
Hard core Protestants have been saying this for decades. Perhaps Ian Paisley was correct.

Well, considering that the Nazi Germans were mostly Lutheran, I'd say the Protestants have about as much room to speak about their heroism against Nazis as the Yugoslavians. In other words, not much.
 
What is poignant to me, during WWI and other wars, like in Germany, many Jews fought honorably for Poland. The lists of Jewish Polish artists who contributed to Polish culture is endless. We gained Arthur Rubinstein, alone a gift from God.

Prejudices against Jews was common throughout Eastern Europe.

I have never understood the prejudice against Jews anywhere. Is it a Christian thing? A jealousy thing? A prejudice based on sheer ignorance and distaste for the other? :shrug: I just do not get it.
 
All four of my grandparents came from Poland around the time of the first world war. I can tell you definitely that there was a very strong anti-Jewish strain that runs through Polish Catholics, particularly those from rural areas. You are correct that the Polish people and the Catholic church did precious little to oppose the horrible German policies and the deep seated prejudice against Jews played a big role in this.

Yeah. I have some Polish in my family background. I agree with what you wrote. None of the Catholic Poles in my family have anything good to say about Jewish people. One of my aunts used to ID people by "Jew." "Ruben the Jew," as if we needed to be told that a guy named Ruben was Jewish.

Lots of examples: "He works for the Jew in the cardboard factory." "If you want the good bread, go to the Jew deli." On and on it went. Thankfully, my parents let me know early on that this was unacceptable behavior.
 
It's actually closer to 2 million non-Jewish Poles. And, very few if any were shoved into ovens.

It's between 2-3 million so stop trying to pretend that by splitting hairs you're proving a point. Your insistence on pinning the blame of the Holocaust on the Polish people is something I'd expect out of a neo-Nazi.


I stand by my statement: I would not recommend bringing the "heroism" of Yugoslavia into this discussion, it will not end well. They were as brutal if not more so than the Nazis. One reason hell boiled over in the 90's was because of the pent up anger still lingering from those days.

Yugoslavia boiled into ethnic conflict because the Serbs didn't want to relinqush their power. They can blame decade old blood feuds as much as they want but in the end that didn't make them carry out massacre after massacre.


They resisted in that they tried to sabotage an invader and occupation force. They did not trip over themselves to save Jews, which is really what a war crimes in Poland thread is about

Except the thousands that did.
 
Not quite true. Many Poles, like their Lithuanian and Ukrainian cousins gladly joined in the abuse and extermination of Jews and other "undesirables" volunteering to bring in the prisoners, confiscate their holdings and work as guards at the camps. Unlike relatively tiny Denmark, the Polish people did very little to protect the vulnerable and much to make things worse, at time profiting from the situation. In Denmark, the morning after German occupiers ordered all Jews to wear a yellow star on their chests, the King of Denmark emerged wearing a yellow star on his chest. By the end of the day every Danish citizen was wearing a yellow star on their chests.

By contrast, when the Warsaw uprising chased those badass German soldiers out of the ghetto, the Polish resistance, sat out the uprising, refusing to help Jews.

Christian X of Denmark never wore the Star of David. It's a nice story but it never happened. Just another pseudo-historical falsehood for you to peddle.
 
Last edited:
It was estimated that 5.5 million Poles dies during Allied bombardments, and Russian artillery fire killing more than 75% of those who died during the war. It's better to say they were victims of those trying to liberate them.

I'm not even gonna bother asking for a source of information to that claim because I know you don't have any. As usual you're just trying to play the role of the wise old man trying to dispense some knowledge on the youth. But in case someone forgot to mention it to you, you actually have to have real knowledge on a subject to teach others, not just make up nonsensical bull**** when it's convenient for you.

Hitler laid out his plans to kill the Poles from the beginning of the German invasion. We know damn well who murdered 6 million Poles, they called themselves the Third Reich and served in the Wehrmacht, Gestapo and SS.
 
How many millions of Polish Jews died?

There are always a few righteous men, but not righteous peoples. The Zegota Council was a complete failure, expediting less than 2,000 children out of the country, north to Scandinavia during 1942 and then all efforts stopped. Their own records show they were more mouth than action, escorting red cross representatives to special camps designed to show Jews in captivity living well. They were part of the German propaganda show.

Oh please, like you'd actually present any records if asked for. Spare me your speeches; they're a waste of time.
 
I have never understood the prejudice against Jews anywhere. Is it a Christian thing? A jealousy thing? A prejudice based on sheer ignorance and distaste for the other? :shrug: I just do not get it.

In my opinion it has many sources. Many religious Jews, throughout the centuries, segregated themselves from all those they lived among, making themselves a target. The purpose, cultural integrity and continuance. An easy target known not to fight back, despite that for the caravans of the silk route, Jewish mercenaries were among the most desired at guards, because they were insane killers in battle. Since the cultural continuance was based on literacy, this made them a serious enemy of the church which retained literacy specifically for the clergy and nobility as tools to suppress the rest of the population. Since both the Vatican and the Eastern Orthodox churches claimed usury as a sin, the wealthy, including the churches, hired Jews to collect rents, debts and tithes, making for the caricature of the money hungry Jew. The English gave us the image of Fagan, the hook nosed father of crime, Shakespeare gifted Shylock, the Jewish Lender of Merchant of Venice, how subtle our hate.

Needless to say, many Jews, in many countries were forbidden to own land, join the guilds and so on, found themselves working as jewelers, money lenders, bankers, managers, and so on, causing beliefs true or not, Jews were wealthy. Read Ivanhoe and a entire community of Jews in England is taxed for the ransom to free the King, captured by other Christians coming home from the Crusades. It is easy to hate those who are different. It was the Dutch King James who forbid Jews to wear their robes of many colors, which set them visually apart and special in the eyes of others, to the simple black suits and hats we now see Orthodox Jews wear almost as a uniform today. Those stylish fur hats a gift from the Russian Jews, who used scraps from fur garments they made for Russians, to make those hats.

Add to all this the admonishment of Christ Killers, a death ordered by a puppet government of the Romans, the Sanhedrin, and the concept of the Chosen People of God, with no realization of what being chosen meant, and we have another recipe for hate. Jews were Chosen to bring the words of God to all peoples, and for that they were promised more suffering during life in return. The words of God, delivered long after the covenant, the promise, in the arms of Moses, two stone tablets of 10 laws. Those laws the mainstay of three major religions, followed by none unless convenient.

There are many more smaller reasons, but most important, hate breeds hate. Long ago I went to a Union meeting with my grandfather, maybe I was ten. He spoke many languages. I heard Greek, Polish, German, Italian among other languages being spoken, and I asked my grandfather what they were saying. He told me they were all saying, "The Jews have the money," and we're leaving. I didn't understand, the few Jews we knew from out neighborhood were among the poorest people we knew.

Before he died, Woody Guthrie married a Jewish woman, lived in Coney Island with her family. Learned Yiddish and Hebrew, writing prolifically in both languages, calling Yiddish the perfect language for self expression. He was often published in the Forward, the leading Yiddish paper of the day. He was slowly rejected by the remainder of the Union movement he championed throughout his life, until he died when Pete Seeger made Woody a hero.

"This land is your land, this land is my land"

We're all in this mess together, but people need to hate and blame.
 
Christian X of Denmark never wore the Star of David. It's a nice story but it never happened. Just another pseudo-historical falsehood for you to peddle.

Of course, you were there. Photographs lie.
 
Oh please, like you'd actually present any records if asked for. Spare me your speeches; they're a waste of time.

You do deserve a spanking, but I don't have the time nor do I want to be bothered.
 
Of course, you were there. Photographs lie.

Show me a single photo of Christian X wearing the Star of David during German occupation, and I will willingly concede the debate to you.
 
You do deserve a spanking, but I don't have the time nor do I want to be bothered.

To spank someone in a debate you would need to be actually capable of doing so. When you actually have sources to back yourself up and do more than just say "I know it's true because I said so", come talk to me. Tidbits of trivia and whatever drivel you make up don't count.
 
I have never understood the prejudice against Jews anywhere. Is it a Christian thing? A jealousy thing? A prejudice based on sheer ignorance and distaste for the other? :shrug: I just do not get it.

It's just about being different and in the minority. It's like being the only redhead in your third grade class. There was a redhead friend of mine, Rusty (seriously, that was his name), who told me how much he was always picked on as a kid for being a redhead. He hated being a redhead. People don't like different.
 
It's between 2-3 million so stop trying to pretend that by splitting hairs you're proving a point. Your insistence on pinning the blame of the Holocaust on the Polish people is something I'd expect out of a neo-Nazi....

Pinning? Challenging the whitewashing is hardly pinning. It's holding the Poles accountable for allowing what the Nazis did to happen on their soil.

If Poles truly resisted the Jew extermination happening under their noses--and there really is no way their noses would not have detected what was happening--there either would not have been a Holocaust on Polish soil or not one single free Pole would have remained alive after that war.
 
How guilty is IBM? Or would that only show that only 100 internment camps were possible?
 
Pinning? Challenging the whitewashing is hardly pinning. It's holding the Poles accountable for allowing what the Nazis did to happen on their soil.

If Poles truly resisted the Jew extermination happening under their noses--and there really is no way their noses would not have detected what was happening--there either would not have been a Holocaust on Polish soil or not one single free Pole would have remained alive after that war.

I've already demonstrated to you thousands of Poles did resist the Holocaust, they helped Jews escape, infiltrated concentration camps, and resisted the Nazis in tens of thousands of instances. Either accept that or deny history.

Now, did every able bodied Pole stand up and try to stop the Germans? Of course not. Neither did every able bodied person in France, Yugoslavia, Belgium, or Russia. That doesn't mean they're all worthy of commendation, since the same would've happened on American soil as well.
 
But only Poland had Death Camps, six of them to be exact.
It was by then (the establishment of the death camps) not really Poland anymore but an occupation zone governed exclusively be a Nazi governor general and a German Nazi administration with no Pole having any say whatsoever.

Note: You have to admit, being the home of six death camps where close to 6 million Jews were slaughtered does raise eyebrows. At the very least, it makes people wonder: "why there?" And, I have very little doubt that there was more to it than, "well, that's where all the Jews were."
The location was convenient to the German Nazis in that there they could pursue their ambitions of extermination, while the location was also sufficiently far away from prying eyes of the rest of the world. And, not to be forgotten, from possibly raised eyebrows at home (the Nazis weren't all that keen on letting their own people know). While still being sufficiently central to allow comparatively easy logistics.

Remember how late the Western Allies caught on to the death camps? There you have it.

Poland didn't have death camps, the Germans had them in Poland. With the regime that they installed there making the occupation of France look like a summer camp.
 
Show me a single photo of Christian X wearing the Star of David during German occupation, and I will willingly concede the debate to you.

There is no debate. You'll find those photos (notice the plural) in the archives of Life, the NYT, The Herald American, Le Monde, The London Telegraph among many other sources.

Knock that chip off your should and we might speak again, but I doubt it.

"It's like being the only redhead in your third grade class."

After that bit of sillyness, I couldn't stop laughing. Hutu hate Tutu and they look exactly the same, and they keep killing each other.

And red headed women are dangerous. But you would never understand that. It takes a mature man with experience to understand the danger, and he will buy her diamonds, emeralds and rubies anyway. :rofl
 
Back
Top Bottom