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Holocaust Denial and Minimization[W:123, 876]

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Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
Hmmm . . . That is contrary to what the Sonderkommando who was interviewed said. He said that the chamber was cleaned up completely so as to not worry the next batch of prisoners. What do you make of that?
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I don't think the Germans worried much about worrying the next batch of Jews being exterminated. You?
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

calamity said:
Few things in life have surprised me more than the conspiracy believers who argue that the Holocaust is a hoax or exaggeration. I guess, I just never suspected that something so black and white was open for debate.

How many of us have a grandpa who told us about the horrors he saw when he entered Germany? And those were the good camps, the ones in the West. The camps East of the Reicht were even worse. Far worse.

I guess an argument could be made that the disgusting Eastern camps were just the result of Soviet era propaganda. That the places were just work camps that the Russians put a spin on. But...

I don't buy that. Here's a good article laying out why.
BBC - History - World Wars: Denying the Holocaust
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from my favorite book.

People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

ludin said:
from my favorite book.

People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.
Click to expand...
I notice the ones who fall for conspiracy theories rarely source scholars to back up their assertions, but they are always embedding YouTube clips.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
Yes Hoss testified that a half hour after the gas was delivered, the doors were opened and the Sonderkommandos went in and dealt with the bodies and then cleaned the chamber up well enough to make it appear unused for the next group of prisoners. A Sonderkommando himself said that they did this barehanded. Are you aware of the toxicity of cyanide?
Click to expand...

So what? No one cared what happened to the Sonderkommandos.

Why do you ignore the BEACH and snivel about a grain of sand?
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
Hmmm . . . That is contrary to what the Sonderkommando who was interviewed said. He said that the chamber was cleaned up completely so as to not worry the next batch of prisoners. What do you make of that?
Click to expand...

It means they cleared out the chamber. So?
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

calamity said:
Ever hear of gas masks?
Click to expand...
On page 166 of his autobiographical memoirs, Hoss says that "half an hour after the gas had been thrown in, the door was opened and the ventilating apparatus switched on. The removal of the bodies was begun immediately."

Hoss has also testified that these workers would be eating with one hand while dragging gassed bodies with the other hand. He confessed that the members of the Sonderkommando unit entered the gas chambers immediately after the gassing and pulled out the bodies, eating and smoking all the while--in other words, without wearing gas masks, and eating food from their hands which had just been handling people who have been gassed to death--something that would have been absolutely impossible. Zyklon B is released slowly from the material which is used as its absorbent, and that means that after the chamber door was opened after the time frame attested to by witnesses, the cyanide was still being released. Hoss was also asked about whether or not the Sonderkommandos wore gas masks. He said that they had them but didn't use them.

". . . their job was to work barehanded and separate intertwined bodies, some of whom may have been relatives or spouses.”

Venezia has also said that the Sonderkommando units were comprised of Jews who cleaned up the gas chambers after a group of prisoners had been murdered. After its personnel dragged the corpses out of the chamber--Venezia states that this, in and of itself, was an extremely disturbing process, as it was initially difficult to disentangle the bodies--the room had to be cleaned. All traces of blood and excrement had to be washed away in order to present a clean, sterile, and hence worry-free environment to the next batch of victims. After completing this task, the men of the Sonderkommando then moved through the corpses, clipping hair or pulling out gold teeth before disposing of the bodies in industrial furnaces. Are you still keen on the idea that the process that Mr. Venezia has described was done bare-handed? If so, then in your own words, explain your reasoning.

You will also recall that according to Pressac, "it would have been necessary for the extermination rooms to have been emptied of corpses and refilled with new victims every half hour or so, as would have been necessary for such a large number of victims." In your attempt to make the mass-gassings appear plausible, you are deliberately ignoring the impossible logistics of the matter.

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=25247
 
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Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
On page 166 of his autobiographical memoirs, Hoss says that "half an hour after the gas had been thrown in, the door was opened and the ventilating apparatus switched on. The removal of the bodies was begun immediately."

Hoss has also testified that these workers would be eating with one hand while dragging gassed bodies with the other hand. He confessed that the members of the Sonderkommando unit entered the gas chambers immediately after the gassing and pulled out the bodies, eating and smoking all the while--in other words, without wearing gas masks, and eating food from their hands which had just been handling people who have been gassed to death--something that would have been absolutely impossible. Zyklon B is released slowly from the material which is used as its absorbent, and that means that after the chamber door was opened after the time frame attested to by witnesses, the cyanide was still being released. Hoss was also asked about whether or not the Sonderkommandos wore gas masks. He said that they had them but didn't use them.

". . . their job was to work barehanded and separate intertwined bodies, some of whom may have been relatives or spouses.”

Venezia has also said that the Sonderkommando units were comprised of Jews who cleaned up the gas chambers after a group of prisoners had been murdered. After its personnel dragged the corpses out of the chamber--Venezia states that this, in and of itself, was an extremely disturbing process, as it was initially difficult to disentangle the bodies--the room had to be cleaned. All traces of blood and excrement had to be washed away in order to present a clean, sterile, and hence worry-free environment to the next batch of victims. After completing this task, the men of the Sonderkommando then moved through the corpses, clipping hair or pulling out gold teeth before disposing of the bodies in industrial furnaces. Are you still keen on the idea that the process that Mr. Venezia has described was done bare-handed? If so, then in your own words, explain your reasoning.

You will also recall that according to Pressac, "it would have been necessary for the extermination rooms to have been emptied of corpses and refilled with new victims every half hour or so, as would have been necessary for such a large number of victims." In your attempt to make the mass-gassings appear plausible, you are deliberately ignoring the impossible logistics of the matter.
Click to expand...

The commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, testified frankly about the gassing of more than a million Jews at the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center during the war.

Pressac estimates that between 631,000 and 711,000 were killed at Auschwitz.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007271
 
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Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

calamity said:
I notice the ones who fall for conspiracy theories rarely source scholars to back up their assertions, but they are always embedding YouTube clips.
Click to expand...

i have noticed the same. all their sources are either other conspiracy sites or youtube video's.

i think the reason for this is that no youtube video can be facted check. the people on them can say whatever they want without fear of having their work checked.

as i told another conspiracy theorist who says all these high up military people said they know it is an inside job.

"if any of these people actually have real evidence then it is their duty to report it to the FBI. the fact that they don't come forward to the FBI with their evidence
says they have 0. More so if you are military or even retired military. It is your sworn duty to report and turn in any and all information regarding a crime."

all i get is uh huh in return. or you can't simply dismiss youtube video's.

i put youtube videos on the same level as the tabloids. basically useless as a valid source.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Fledermaus said:
So what? No one cared what happened to the Sonderkommandos.
Click to expand...
You are missing the point. The fact that a Sonderkommando lived to tell about his eight months entering gas chambers and handling freshly gassed people barehanded, and then cleaning up the blood, urine, vomit, and excrement of the victims is physically impossible.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
You are missing the point. The fact that a Sonderkommando lived to tell about his eight months entering gas chambers and handling freshly gassed people barehanded, and then cleaning up the blood, urine, vomit, and excrement of the victims is physically impossible.
Click to expand...

Borscht... Ten minutes and a water hose... They weren't prepping it for surgery...

The commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, testified frankly about the gassing of more than a million Jews at the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center during the war.

Pressac estimates that between 631,000 and 711,000 were killed at Auschwitz.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

calamity said:
I don't think the Germans worried much about worrying the next batch of Jews being exterminated. You?
Click to expand...
Calling a surviving Sonderkommando a liar?
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
Off topic again.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's not off topic since I haven't seen anything remotely resembling a scholarly sourcing from the holocaust deniers yet.

Hell, even a decent wiki sourcing that backs up your assertions would be helpful.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
Calling a surviving Sonderkommando a liar?
Click to expand...

I'm sure he believes they cleaned those gas chambers out real nice and clean so that the stench of death didn't worry the next bunch of victims...and no one suffered either. :roll:
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
You are missing the point. The fact that a Sonderkommando lived to tell about his eight months entering gas chambers and handling freshly gassed people barehanded, and then cleaning up the blood, urine, vomit, and excrement of the victims is physically impossible.
Click to expand...
You're not good with numbers. Are ya?

Let's say they killed 800,000 to 900,000 Jews from the beginning or 1943 until mid 1945. That's roughly 900 days.

So Germans, at the height of the slaughter, killed no more than 1000 Jews per day. In 12 hours, that's less than 100 Jews an hour. Not exactly hard to do. Is it?
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

calamity said:
You're not good with numbers. Are ya?

Let's say they killed 800,000 to 900,000 Jews from the beginning or 1943 until mid 1945. That's roughly 900 days.

So Germans, at the height of the slaughter, killed no more than 1000 Jews per day. In 12 hours, that's less than 100 Jews an hour. Not exactly hard to do. Is it?
Click to expand...

Holocaust deniers don't do math... They see a leaf and concentrate while ignoring the forest.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

calamity said:
I don't think the Germans worried much about worrying the next batch of Jews being exterminated. You?
Click to expand...

Actually they would go through and clear out the chamber so the next group wouldn't know what to expect. the next group would walk into the shower and it would be clean.
they wouldn't know if they were going to get gassed or an actual shower it was all part of the sadistic torture that they were put through.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
Off topic again.
Click to expand...

actually when confronting conspiracy theorist it is directly on topic.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

calamity said:
Sadling is why I started this thread. He totally derailed the thread I started earlier which was about CT in general, going all-in on Holocaust minimization.

BTW, here's the all inclusive CT thread, if you're interested.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...1-m-o-o-n-which-conspiracies-do-you-like.html
Click to expand...

Moderator's Warning:
I suggest then that any one not interested in discussing the topic of this thread: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

but in the discussion of CT in general, go to the thread linked in that post and leave this one for discussion of the OP. Any further derailing, baiting, personal comments OR commentary on moderation rather than just reporting posts, will cause a swift and permanent exit from this thread, possibly with points.

Moderation is still pending for some posts prior to this in-thread, but this mess needed to stop now, hence the warning.
 
Re: Holocaust Denial and Minimization

Sadling said:
On page 166 of his autobiographical memoirs, Hoss says that "half an hour after the gas had been thrown in, the door was opened and the ventilating apparatus switched on. The removal of the bodies was begun immediately."

Hoss has also testified that these workers would be eating with one hand while dragging gassed bodies with the other hand. He confessed that the members of the Sonderkommando unit entered the gas chambers immediately after the gassing and pulled out the bodies, eating and smoking all the while--in other words, without wearing gas masks, and eating food from their hands which had just been handling people who have been gassed to death--something that would have been absolutely impossible. Zyklon B is released slowly from the material which is used as its absorbent, and that means that after the chamber door was opened after the time frame attested to by witnesses, the cyanide was still being released. Hoss was also asked about whether or not the Sonderkommandos wore gas masks. He said that they had them but didn't use them.

". . . their job was to work barehanded and separate intertwined bodies, some of whom may have been relatives or spouses.”

Venezia has also said that the Sonderkommando units were comprised of Jews who cleaned up the gas chambers after a group of prisoners had been murdered. After its personnel dragged the corpses out of the chamber--Venezia states that this, in and of itself, was an extremely disturbing process, as it was initially difficult to disentangle the bodies--the room had to be cleaned. All traces of blood and excrement had to be washed away in order to present a clean, sterile, and hence worry-free environment to the next batch of victims. After completing this task, the men of the Sonderkommando then moved through the corpses, clipping hair or pulling out gold teeth before disposing of the bodies in industrial furnaces. Are you still keen on the idea that the process that Mr. Venezia has described was done bare-handed? If so, then in your own words, explain your reasoning.

You will also recall that according to Pressac, "it would have been necessary for the extermination rooms to have been emptied of corpses and refilled with new victims every half hour or so, as would have been necessary for such a large number of victims." In your attempt to make the mass-gassings appear plausible, you are deliberately ignoring the impossible logistics of the matter.

H-Net Reviews
Click to expand...
Their only "processing", at most, 100 people an hour. Not that difficult.
 
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