Holocaust Denial and Minimization[W:123, 876]

[Natan]

I have no idea as to the accuracy of your claim about the sign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BywkrWVlVOs

An old image of the "gas chamber" with the sign inside is still in use on several wikis:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KL_Dachau_Block_X_gas_chamber.jpg

 

[zyzygy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BywkrWVlVOs

An old image of the "gas chamber" with the sign inside is still in use on several wikis:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KL_Dachau_Block_X_gas_chamber.jpg

Does it matter how the thousands of Dachau victims died?

Dachau Concentration Camp

 

[Natan]

Yes. Otherwise I could claim confederate soldiers killed imprisoned union soldiers in gas chambers. I see truth only matters to you somewhat. As long as it supports "the cause", any lie will do.

Many Southern prisons were located in regions with high disease rates, and were routinely short of medicine, doctors, food and ice. Northerners often believed their men were being deliberately weakened and killed in Confederate prisons, and demanded that conditions in Northern prisons be equally harsh, even though shortages were not a problem in the North.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_prison_camps

 

[zyzygy]

Yes. Otherwise I could claim confederate soldiers killed imprisoned union soldiers in gas chambers. I see truth only matters to you somewhat. As long as it supports "the cause", any lie will do.

Which cause? It doesn't matter how the Nazis murdered their victims. Denying the Holocaust is lying.

 

[Natan]

Which cause? It doesn't matter how the Nazis murdered their victims.

It does.

Denying the Holocaust is lying.

Denying there was a homicidal gas chamber in Dachau (which many/most/all conventional historians do), isn't "lying" or "denying the Holocaust". Here is jewishvirtuallibrary, busy "Holocaust denying":

There is no credible evidence that the gas chamber in Barrack X was used to murder human beings.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/dachau.html

 

[Mark F]

1. Whatever infrastructure existed at a single camp does not prove or disprove that the Holocaust occurred. Beware the narrow focus on a single anomaly used to support a false global generalization.

2. Not sure what is being claimed here. The quote from the reference provided in post #1155 is:

There is no credible evidence that the gas chamber in Barrack X was used to murder human beings.

So we have acknowledgement there was a gas chamber in Barrack X but it was not used to kill human beings?

OK, why not? Ran out of time? Facility incomplete?

This is a bit like the school child saying to his teacher "But he hit me first". That is an admission of guilt, not a defense.

 

[Natan]

Errrrr... Mark, please point out where I said: the gas chamber at Dachau never functioned, ergo the Holocaust did not occur? It does prove there were lies/falsehoods spread about gas chambers by the Allies. Lies are still being spread up to today and are not questioned just because they fit the narrative.

At the camp, he remembers mothers separated from babies, walking naked to the "showers" to be gassed, their babies thrown into sacks and beaten or tossed in the air for target practice. Filming Glucksman as he recounted the story recently at a local high school, Campbell's 12-year-old son, Jordan, ran to the bathroom to be sick.
A Survivor's 'Threads' - tribunedigital-thecourant

 

[Mark F]

Errrrr... Mark, please point out where I said: the gas chamber at Dachau never functioned, ergo the Holocaust did not occur?

You missed the point entirely. Perhaps if there was a clearly stated claim being made we could avoid such confusions.

 

[Natan]

Okay.

 

[Mark F]

Okay.

As in you are being so ambiguous I don't even have an idea what to apply the two questions against - or in simpler terms, what is your point?

 

[Natan]

As in you are being so ambiguous I don't even have an idea what to apply the two questions against - or in simpler terms, what is your point?

Lies about gas chambers DO exist, sometimes told by people who were actually at the camps.

 

[Mark F]

Lies about gas chambers DO exist, sometimes told by people who were actually at the camps.

If we can go back to the beginning,...

In Post 1149 you stated that "Dachau didn't have gas chambers", then posted a photo of a sign from that labels a building at Dachau as a gas chamber that "was never used as a gas chamber".

OK. But,... an unused gas chamber is still a gas chamber. So was there a gas chamber at Dachau or not?

If so was it put to use or not and if so, for what purpose?

Based only on the posts so far there is no way to know.

Then you responded to a post claiming that dead bodies were found "in rooms adjacent to gas chambers". I need to point out that said post never mentioned anyone actually being murdered in said gas chambers, just that bodies were found adjacent to them.

After entering the camp, the soldiers found boxcars filled with dead bodies of prisoners who had succumbed to starvation or last-minute executions, and in rooms adjacent to gas chambers they found naked bodies piled from the floor to the ceiling.[

Yet in post #1153 you argue that the claim victims were killed in a gas chamber at Dachau is a lie. It can not be a lie if no such claim was made. From what I can see you either misunderstood the original statement or were deliberately inventing a strawman.

Regardless of whether or not there was a gas chamber at Dachau, whether it was functional or whether or not it was ever put to use for the purpose of executing human beings, I see no one claiming that any such facility was put to that purpose. Either way it has no bearing on the OP.

 

[Natan]

OK. But,... an unused gas chamber is still a gas chamber. So was there a gas chamber at Dachau or not?

Fine, sorry, my mistake. I should have been clearer from the beginning. I reacted to a post that said there were gas chambers in Dachau. We can debate whether or not it was a gas chamber, it seemed not to have been even capable of functioning as such. Can you really call a kitchen with all kitchen furniture but without electricity or gas connections a kitchen as you can't cook a thing? Up for debate.

If so was it put to use or not and if so, for what purpose?

It was never put to use for gassing people.

Based only on the posts so far there is no way to know.

It is quite clear it was never used for gassing people. See also jewishvirtuallibrary. They won't involve themselves with "holocaust denial" or lie about gas chambers.

Then you responded to a post claiming that dead bodies were found "in rooms adjacent to gas chambers". I need to point out that said post never mentioned anyone actually being murdered in said gas chambers, just that bodies were found adjacent to them.

My reply in post #1149 is "Dachau didn't have gas chambers." Which is technically correct, as there was only ONE and even non functional/unused as such.

Yet in post #1153 you argue that the claim victims were killed in a gas chamber at Dachau is a lie. It can not be a lie if no such claim was made. From what I can see you either misunderstood the original statement or were deliberately inventing a strawman.

Some things happened in between post #1149 and #1153. Zyzygy implied that it didn't matter how victims died in Dachau, implying telling it was by gas chamber is okay. As such, I made no reference to the original statement of Fledermaus (but addressed Zyzygy) and invented no strawman.

Regardless of whether or not there was a gas chamber at Dachau, whether it was functional or whether or not it was ever put to use for the purpose of executing human beings, I see no one claiming that any such facility was put to that purpose. Either way it has no bearing on the OP.

So? My reaction to the OP of Fledermaus was again post #1149, correcting that there were no gas chamberS.

 

[Mark F]

Fine, sorry, my mistake. I should have been clearer from the beginning. I reacted to a post that said there were gas chambers in Dachau. We can debate whether or not it was a gas chamber, it seemed not to have been even capable of functioning as such. Can you really call a kitchen with all kitchen furniture but without electricity or gas connections a kitchen as you can't cook a thing? Up for debate.

It was never put to use for gassing people.

It is quite clear it was never used for gassing people. See also jewishvirtuallibrary. They won't involve themselves with "holocaust denial" or lie about gas chambers.

My reply in post #1149 is "Dachau didn't have gas chambers." Which is technically correct, as there was only ONE and even non functional/unused as such.

Some things happened in between post #1149 and #1153. Zyzygy implied that it didn't matter how victims died in Dachau, implying telling it was by gas chamber is okay. As such, I made no reference to the original statement of Fledermaus (but addressed Zyzygy) and invented no strawman.

So? My reaction to the OP of Fledermaus was again post #1149, correcting that there were no gas chamberS.

Very good. Thank you for the clarification.

I did not BTW get from Zyzygy that he or anyone else was either implying or claiming victims at Dachau were executed in gas chamber(s).

 

[Natan]

I did not BTW get from Zyzygy that he or anyone else was either implying or claiming victims at Dachau were executed in gas chamber(s).

He did imply that saying they were executed in a gas chamber, wouldn't matter. That's like saying it's okay to claim those of the French revolution died mostly by samurai sword instead of by guillotine. After all, they lost their head anyway.

 

[zyzygy]

He did imply that saying they were executed in a gas chamber, wouldn't matter. That's like saying it's okay to claim those of the French revolution died mostly by samurai sword instead of by guillotine. After all, they lost their head anyway.

How did most of the six million Jews die?

 

[Mark F]

He did imply that saying they were executed in a gas chamber, wouldn't matter. That's like saying it's okay to claim those of the French revolution died mostly by samurai sword instead of by guillotine. After all, they lost their head anyway.

Again, I have to disagree. Zyzygy asked a rhetorical question, the important point being that victims had died rather than the how. And remember, at this point no one had actually said anyone at Dachau was killed in a gas chamber.

More to the point; should we be quibbling - bogging down the discussion - over narrow-focus details so we lose sight of the big picture?

But whatever. If I am not mistaken I think we are all in agreement an exceedingly high number of prisoners died in many horrible ways at Dachau, but gassing was not one of them.

Next,...

 

[Natan]

How did most of the six million Jews die?

I've never seen a breakdown according to method (starvation, overwork, disease, shooting, gassing). If this is a rhetorical question and you have seen, please tell.

 

[zyzygy]

I've never seen a breakdown according to method (starvation, overwork, disease, shooting, gassing). If this is a rhetorical question and you have seen, please tell.

Do you approve the murders at the camps? Why does it matter how the Nazis carried out their extermination program?

 

[Mark F]

Do you approve the murders at the camps? Why does it matter how the Nazis carried out their extermination program?

If I may,...

For the record you did not say nor do I think you meant to imply that a gas chamber or chambers were employed at Dachau to execute prisoners.

To Natan's point though, accuracy is important.

Michael Shermer has written about his experience confronting Holocaust deniers, in particular when he is working with Holocaust survivors on how important it is to stick strictly to the facts - to what you know. Claiming or implying things that are untrue only provides ammunition for the deniers in that special way of employing false logic CT's have mastered. A-ha! You were wrong about that micro-detail, that means you are wrong about everything and (by extension therefore) I must be right about everything!

CT's live for those little baubles over minor details.

 

[zyzygy]

If I may,...

For the record you did not say nor do I think you meant to imply that a gas chamber or chambers were employed at Dachau to execute prisoners.

To Natan's point though, accuracy is important.

Michael Shermer has written about his experience confronting Holocaust deniers, in particular when he is working with Holocaust survivors on how important it is to stick strictly to the facts - to what you know. Claiming or implying things that are untrue only provides ammunition for the deniers in that special way of employing false logic CT's have mastered. A-ha! You were wrong about that micro-detail, that means you are wrong about everything and (by extension therefore) I must be right about everything!

CT's live for those little baubles over minor details.

Well put. For example if "only" two million Jews were murdered then deniers think that they have won the argument.

 

[Ancient Herald]

one of the best Holocaust resource website there is, The Nizkor Project.

Holocaust Educational Resource

The cynical truth comes to us by way of an obscure extremist group, which boasts:

"The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again."

 

[Natan]

Do you approve the murders at the camps? Why does it matter how the Nazis carried out their extermination program?

First tell me a breakdown how most of the six million jews died. One question at a time dear. You ask two new ones and there's yet no answer for the old one.

 

[Dibbler]

First tell me a breakdown how most of the six million jews died. One question at a time dear. You ask two new ones and there's yet no answer for the old one.

Natan, not to interrupt you. However when you question the official narrative of the Holocaust, you are are also going against the official narrative of the Anglo-American Empire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiBVN60tifE

It is NOT just about truth, or jews, but part of a big machine.

 

[zyzygy]

First tell me a breakdown how most of the six million jews died. One question at a time dear. You ask two new ones and there's yet no answer for the old one.

You know the answers. The figures for the Holocaust are easy to find. At least you agree that the number was six million.