History of Russian Savagery, From 1600's to today. (1 Viewer)

[JBG]

The Asiatic/Oriental nature of the Russian people, from the steppes on eastward, did not really ever go away. Russia never really joined the West. See, e.g. The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life was about Lev Nussenbaum, a Jewish author from Baku, Azerbeijan, and books written by him, including Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, and Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur.

Russia has tried, on a few occasions, to look westward, towards Europe and even rebelling America during and after the Revolutionary War. Peter the Great built St. Petersburg, a port city that always looked to trade. Czar Catherine the Great had a dalliance with major authors of her day, such as Diderot. But the hordes of the steppes were never far behind. As detailed by authors in the early 1900's, such as Essad Bey, the soul of the country was exceeding backwards. When Stalin took over, he wasted no time in fomenting the Holodomer, a planned famine that killed millions of Ukrainians. Does what Putin is doing look so novel?

Perhaps that's why the descendants of so many Russians call America home.

 

[Tigerace117]

The Asiatic/Oriental nature of the Russian people, from the steppes on eastward, did not really ever go away. Russia never really joined the West. See, e.g. The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life was about Lev Nussenbaum, a Jewish author from Baku, Azerbeijan, and books written by him, including Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, and Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur.

Russia has tried, on a few occasions, to look westward, towards Europe and even rebelling America during and after the Revolutionary War. Peter the Great built St. Petersburg, a port city that always looked to trade. Czar Catherine the Great had a dalliance with major authors of her day, such as Diderot. But the hordes of the steppes were never far behind. As detailed by authors in the early 1900's, such as Essad Bey, the soul of the country was exceeding backwards. When Stalin took over, he wasted no time in fomenting the Holodomer, a planned famine that killed millions of Ukrainians. Does what Putin is doing look so novel?

Perhaps that's why the descendants of so many Russians call America home.

Lol what?

First off, arguing that “Asiatic or Oriental” nature is what causes “Russian savagery” is A) pretty ****ing racist and B) throughly nonsensical given the vast rivers of blood produced by the global wars of “Western” countries like France, Britain, Belgium, Germany, and Italy. Hysterical ravings about “the horrors of the steppes” pale in comparison to what Britain did in India, Kenya and Ireland, France did in Algeria and Indochina, the Belgians in the Congo, the Germans.....well, their record speaks for itself, and the Italians in Libya and Ethiopia.

You’re going to have to find a different excuse.

 

[Fishking]

Lol what?

First off, arguing that “Asiatic or Oriental” nature is what causes “Russian savagery” is A) pretty ****ing racist and B) throughly nonsensical given the vast rivers of blood produced by the global wars of “Western” countries like France, Britain, Belgium, Germany, and Italy. Hysterical ravings about “the horrors of the steppes” pale in comparison to what Britain did in India, Kenya and Ireland, France did in Algeria and Indochina, the Belgians in the Congo, the Germans.....well, their record speaks for itself, and the Italians in Libya and Ethiopia.

You’re going to have to find a different excuse.

Yup...humans be killing humans all over the place and in the most brutal and imaginative ways since forever. I'll just take minor quibble with your "pale in comparison" as it doesn't pale in comparison at all. There's terrible shit of equal standing all over there place, and that comment makes it seem like those examples are exceptional.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yup...humans be killing humans all over the place and in the most brutal and imaginative ways since forever. I'll just take minor quibble with your "pale in comparison" as it doesn't pale in comparison at all. There's terrible shit of equal standing all over there place, and that comment makes it seem like those examples are exceptional.

True, but given that the OP has openly defended colonialism on multiple occasions— for example, here

Final solution to middle east crisis

your replay (specifically) Has aroused my curiosity. i will be very grateful if you give me more explanation about your point of viewhe isn’t calling all the shots. But told to take the fall. Maybe you are asking where all the money is going. Is that what you’re asking?

debatepolitics.com

It’s pretty clear what he means when he’s rambling on about “the horror of the steppes”.

 

[TheParser]

I am glad that you used the S-word in your title. (I have been too cowardly to use it.)

Yes, the Russians are a, uh, rough people in general.

In fact, since the Russians claim that Ukrainians are actually Russians, then they should have realized that the Ukrainians would be just as "rough" in defending their country.

What the Russians are doing in Ukraine is sickening and disgusting and outrageous and the S-word of your title. They are doing it because they know the West is too chicken to stop the slaughter and rape.

In the coming weeks, we must prepare to see the capital of Ukraine in ruins and -- sadly -- a certain man turned into a martyr.

 

[Tigerace117]

I am glad that you used the S-word in your title. (I have been too cowardly to use it.)

Yes, the Russians are a, uh, rough people in general.

In fact, since the Russians claim that Ukrainians are actually Russians, then they should have realized that the Ukrainians would be just as "rough" in defending their country.

What the Russians are doing in Ukraine is sickening and disgusting and outrageous and the S-word of your title. They are doing it because they know the West is too chicken to stop the slaughter and rape.

In the coming weeks, we must prepare to see the capital of Ukraine in ruins and -- sadly -- a certain man turned into a martyr.

A direct western intervention is exponentially more likely to leave Ukraine a radioactive wasteland.

 

[Fishking]

True, but given that the OP has openly defended colonialism on multiple occasions— for example, here

Final solution to middle east crisis

your replay (specifically) Has aroused my curiosity. i will be very grateful if you give me more explanation about your point of viewhe isn’t calling all the shots. But told to take the fall. Maybe you are asking where all the money is going. Is that what you’re asking?

debatepolitics.com

It’s pretty clear what he means when he’s rambling on about “the horror of the steppes”.

Yeah...colonialism came with a lot of atrocities but neither is western colonialism unique or uniquely brutal. Every group out there pulls the same shit. It's really only been somewhat recent (relatively) that we've even had some kind of semblance of what we deem as human, and that's not even universal in all parts of the world to this very day.

 

[Fishking]

I am glad that you used the S-word in your title. (I have been too cowardly to use it.)

Yes, the Russians are a, uh, rough people in general.

In fact, since the Russians claim that Ukrainians are actually Russians, then they should have realized that the Ukrainians would be just as "rough" in defending their country.

What the Russians are doing in Ukraine is sickening and disgusting and outrageous and the S-word of your title. They are doing it because they know the West is too chicken to stop the slaughter and rape.

In the coming weeks, we must prepare to see the capital of Ukraine in ruins and -- sadly -- a certain man turned into a martyr.

Huh?...the west has a long history of being OK with that. So far as foreign policy goes, nothing we've ever done has actually been about human rights but spheres of influence and securing resources.

 

[JBG]

Huh?...the west has a long history of being OK with that. So far as foreign policy goes, nothing we've ever done has actually been about human rights but spheres of influence and securing resources.

Sounds like a nursery school civics project.

 

[Fishking]

Sounds like a nursery school civics project.

Oh really? OK...explain what lesson in nursery school our support to Saudi Arabia that causes this falls in.

 

[JBG]

Lol what?

First off, arguing that “Asiatic or Oriental” nature is what causes “Russian savagery” is A) pretty ****ing racist and B) throughly nonsensical given the vast rivers of blood produced by the global wars of “Western” countries like France, Britain, Belgium, Germany, and Italy. Hysterical ravings about “the horrors of the steppes” pale in comparison to what Britain did in India, Kenya and Ireland, France did in Algeria and Indochina, the Belgians in the Congo, the Germans.....well, their record speaks for itself, and the Italians in Libya and Ethiopia.

You’re going to have to find a different excuse.

The Russian and Chinese bloodbaths far outclassed almost everything else except possibly Nazi Germany. Further, the current much deeper into modern times. There seems to be absolutely no concept of limitation of warfare or its affects on civilians. It is not racism to honestly and openly discuss a society‘s conduct.

 

[Tigerace117]

The Russian and Chinese bloodbaths far outclassed almost everything else except possibly Nazi Germany. Further, the current much deeper into modern times. There seems to be absolutely no concept of limitation of warfare or its affects on civilians. It is not racism to honestly and openly discuss a society‘s conduct.

The vast majority of those deaths occurred during peacetime(Stalin’s purges, the Great Leap Forward etc), which makes your claim rather nonsensical.

Furthermore, given that in both major cases the Russians and Chinese were fighting genocidal enemies(namely the Germans and Japanese) who’d horrifically abused their people for years, reprisals are hardly surprising.

The point, of course, is that claiming brutality or repression is somehow the result of “coming from the steppes” or “Oriental mentality” is A) utter nonsense and B) rather racist.

 

[JBG]

The vast majority of those deaths occurred during peacetime(Stalin’s purges, the Great Leap Forward etc), which makes your claim rather nonsensical.

Furthermore, given that in both major cases the Russians and Chinese were fighting genocidal enemies(namely the Germans and Japanese) who’d horrifically abused their people for years, reprisals are hardly surprising.

The point, of course, is that claiming brutality or repression is somehow the result of “coming from the steppes” or “Oriental mentality” is A) utter nonsense and B) rather racist.

It looks as if all you have to do is see me post to lose your send of balance. The first and second sentences of your post are internally incoherent. Were the Russians and Chinese in peacetime or were they fighting "genocidal enemies"? I know of no war in Europe at the time of the Holodomer, the early 1930's. I know of no war between Japan and China after 1945. To my knowledge the Great Leap Forward was during the 1950's or early 1960's. Maybe the fear of German atrocities led Stalin to pre-emptively kill millions of Ukrainians. I can't fathom his motives. My point is that the railing against Israel rings hollow compared to the low-volume, on no, condemnation of German and Russian atrocities. It sure looks like the beat goes on.

As far as the Russian people go I have a rather special feeling for them. Some of my ancestors were forced to flee during the late 1890's or early 1900's. After they got out, I suppose, let them kill each other. They're rather good at it.

 

[Tigerace117]

It looks as if all you have to do is see me post to lose your send of balance. The first and second sentences of your post are internally incoherent. Were the Russians and Chinese in peacetime or were they fighting "genocidal enemies"? I know of no war in Europe at the time of the Holodomer, the early 1930's. I know of no war between Japan and China after 1945. To my knowledge the Great Leap Forward was during the 1950's or early 1960's. Maybe the fear of German atrocities led Stalin to pre-emptively kill millions of Ukrainians. I can't fathom his motives. My point is that the railing against Israel rings hollow compared to the low-volume, on no, condemnation of German and Russian atrocities. It sure looks like the beat goes on.

As far as the Russian people go I have a rather special feeling for them. Some of my ancestors were forced to flee during the late 1890's or early 1900's. After they got out, I suppose, let them kill each other. They're rather good at it.

As I said before, the VAST majority of the deaths attributed to Stalin or Mao occurred during peacetime. The “bad behavior” of their armed forces occurred when fighting genocidal enemies who’d slaughtered tens of millions of their countrymen in genocidal wars of aggression. It looks like you need to start paying attention.

Israel has committed plenty of its own atrocities. The idea that one has to commit crimes equivalent to the literal Holocaust before it can be condemned is ludicrous. Likewise, the idea that nobody has condemned the Holocaust or Stalin’s actions is utterly absurd.

Trying living in the real world.

 

[JBG]

As I said before, the VAST majority of the deaths attributed to Stalin or Mao occurred during peacetime. The “bad behavior” of their armed forces occurred when fighting genocidal enemies who’d slaughtered tens of millions of their countrymen in genocidal wars of aggression. It looks like you need to start paying attention.

Israel has committed plenty of its own atrocities. The idea that one has to commit crimes equivalent to the literal Holocaust before it can be condemned is ludicrous. Likewise, the idea that nobody has condemned the Holocaust or Stalin’s actions is utterly absurd.

Trying living in the real world.

To my mind, setting up a missile battery on top of an apartment building is the atrocity in question. Try living in the real world.

 

[Tigerace117]

To my mind, setting up a missile battery on top of an apartment building is the atrocity in question. Try living in the real world.

Gunning down unarmed civilians, sending death squads around the globe that, oops, kill the wrong guy, sponsoring what amounts to outright colonialism, and far, far more, don’t go away just because the other side does bad stuff too.

 

[Chagos]

Somebody trying to usurp Litwin's rambling monopoly on the Ulus of Jochi?

Priceless.

 

[JBG]

Gunning down unarmed civilians, sending death squads around the globe that, oops, kill the wrong guy, sponsoring what amounts to outright colonialism, and far, far more, don’t go away just because the other side does bad stuff too.

So Israel should just shrivel up and die? And the Jews too?

 

[Tigerace117]

So Israel should just shrivel up and die? And the Jews too?

Gee, maybe they should stop committing their own atrocities. Nobody’s “shriveled up and died” from that in human history.

 

[JBG]

Gee, maybe they should stop committing their own atrocities. Nobody’s “shriveled up and died” from that in human history.

How do they fight back, then, against cowardly opponents who fight out of uniform and deliberately target pizza parlors? Or is it OK because it's the Joooooos?

 

[Tigerace117]

How do they fight back, then, against cowardly opponents who fight out of uniform and deliberately target pizza parlors? Or is it OK because it's the Joooooos?

You can’t cry about “cowardice” when Israel routinely targets non-combatants itself. They literally just killed an Palestinian journalist.....and btw, Israel has elected more than one terrorist, such as Menachim Begin, PM.

 

[JBG]

You can’t cry about “cowardice” when Israel routinely targets non-combatants itself. They literally just killed an Palestinian journalist.....and btw, Israel has elected more than one terrorist, such as Menachim Begin, PM.

1) If the "journalist" is part of a war, he makes himself a target; and
2) Begin did more for peace with actual Arabs than your heroes such as George Habash, Yasir Arafat and Nasrallah.

 

[Tigerace117]

1) If the "journalist" is part of a war, he makes himself a target; and
2) Begin did more for peace with actual Arabs than your heroes such as George Habash, Yasir Arafat and Nasrallah.

The journalist was a non-combatant. Under the laws of war, targeting and murdering non-combatants is a war crime.

Gee, enabling the psychos who carried out the Sabra and Shatila massacre sure did a lot for people

 

[JBG]

Gee, enabling the psychos who carried out the Sabra and Shatila massacre sure did a lot for people

Glad you said "enabling." The line at the time was "non-Jews kill non-Jews and the Jews get the blame."

 

[Tigerace117]

Glad you said "enabling." The line at the time was "non-Jews kill non-Jews and the Jews get the blame."

The Israeli government was directly allied with this militiamen. The IDF literally had the camp in which the massacre took place surrounded. The IDF received numerous reports about the massacre and did nothing to stop it.

So people can whine all they want, Israel did indeed have responsibility for the atrocities that took place there.