History of Russian Savagery, From 1600's to today.

[Tigerace117]

My "load of drivel" is straight out of the history of the last two or more centuries, which you might find challenging in that apparently your not even grasping what I wrote, let alone showing any learnings from Russian history or exposure to Russian studies.

Cont...

Gee, and yet the obvious issue is that almost everything you accuse Russia of is equally true— if not more so— about countries such as the United States, Great Britain and France......and yet we see no screeds about the “inherent malevolence” in the British soul, or plans to try to carve America up.

1) And I pointed out that by that logic American culture is also “crude and backwards”. The ONLY difference is that you fear and hate Russians, yet approve of America’s numerous wars, often fought under the flimsiest of justifications or no justification at all, to conquer our way to the Pacific Ocean.

2) Except those countries HAVEN’T distanced themselves from imperialism. To the contrary, modern day Western imperialism is alive and well, having only shifted into process of establishing puppet states and armed meddling in the internal structure of various sovereign nations to keep them weak, dependent on the West, and compliant. Franc-afrique, for instance, remains a ongoing system. “Liberty and Democracy”? The West spent decades stamping out democracies all over the globe and installing compliant tyrants and dictators from Guatemala to Iran. And No nation which supports nations such as Saudi Arabia, for instance, can seriously claim that “liberty and democracy” are a genuine concern of theirs.

3) The point is, all of what Russia did is nothing other than what the countries you give a free pass to WANTED them to do. Whining because the Russians didn’t tell the Austrians to piss off is meaningless and hypocritical. Furthermore, as previously discussed, there WAS a significant reform movement post Nicolas I, which rather discredits your narrative. Reform was stalled not because the Russian leaders never wanted it, but because a reformist Tsar was literally assassinated.

4) And yet there is no whining from you about the Prussians/Germans or Austrians crushing their Polish subjects, which happened with every bit as much frequency, nor do you have an issue with the British crushing liberal Irish revolutionaries. Every one of your claims reeks of utter hypocrisy. In the “great era of nationalism”, it was conservatives from all over the continent eager to repress the “revolutions” with force, so condemning Russia while giving the rest a free pass is simply ignorant.

OMG, you mean Russia didn’t like foreign movements it saw as a threat! Like literally every other nation in human history? How horrifying

 

[Tigerace117]

Cont...

The ethos of Tsarism and Russian nationalism has always worked together, making for Russia's unique and paradoxical imperialism as a form of patriotism (and vice versa). Tsarism's concern for the Slavs in other nations than Russia (Lenin termed "the “prisonhouse of nationalities”) was always hypocritical as it also found that brutal suppression of other Slavs within the empire always to be of Russian benefit. (Adding that it still has not changed).

In the 19th and early 20th century Russian suppression of nationalism among Polish and Ukrainian Slavics was more than ironic given that the "oppressed" Slavs of other empires such as the Czechs, Slovenes, and Croats under Habsburg rule, enjoyed political freedoms and a standard of living above those which were the lot of the Russian people and their prisonhouse.

And the Bolshevik's upon taking power were no different. In propaganda they proclaimed the principle of self-determination when excoriating the colonial powers, only to fight resolutely against the introduction of this same principle into the Russia empire. They were well aware the Ukraine, Don, Caucasus, and others didn't recognize them as their government, so such were suppressed and papered over with fake "Republics" (a ploy that was not new to Russia in 2014).

So JBG is essentially correct, the nature of the Russian people, forged in Tsarism and Bolshevism has not changed. Russian nationalism relies on imperialism for self respect and validation, it requires that others show respect for Russia's greatness, and even as it's 21st century power wanes its nationalists think of it as in the cold war, and that Russia is the leader of a huge block of nations. Merely being the worlds largest nation isn't enough to feed their ego...its neighbors, especially those of Slavic peoples, must bend the knee.

It is now clear that short of the kind of war destruction and post war occupation that occurred in places like Japan and Germany, the nature of the Russian people cannot be changed. If and until that day comes, the world must treat Russia as an existential enemy to the safety and independence of any nation within its grasp.

As previous stated, the actions of nations such as British and France, shows, quite clearly, that your supposed concerns with “self determination” are nothing more than more empty hypocrisy, as is usual with you. Thankfully, the existence of nuclear weapons ensured that “the type of war destruction and post war occupation that Germany and Japan faced” can NEVER be brought to Russia. Even if nuclear weapons didn’t exist, the simple fact is that the West couldn’t successfully care out such an invasion and occupation in the first place.

 

[Roadvirus]

The Asiatic/Oriental nature of the Russian people, from the steppes on eastward, did not really ever go away. Russia never really joined the West. See, e.g. The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life was about Lev Nussenbaum, a Jewish author from Baku, Azerbeijan, and books written by him, including Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, and Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur.

Russia has tried, on a few occasions, to look westward, towards Europe and even rebelling America during and after the Revolutionary War. Peter the Great built St. Petersburg, a port city that always looked to trade. Czar Catherine the Great had a dalliance with major authors of her day, such as Diderot. But the hordes of the steppes were never far behind. As detailed by authors in the early 1900's, such as Essad Bey, the soul of the country was exceeding backwards. When Stalin took over, he wasted no time in fomenting the Holodomer, a planned famine that killed millions of Ukrainians. Does what Putin is doing look so novel?

Perhaps that's why the descendants of so many Russians call America home.

@Litwin called. He doesn't like it when someone bogarts his "oriental"/Russia thing. On the other hand, at least you didn't go full-speed ahead and use "Muscovite".

 

[JBG]

LOL So that makes the Russians more "civilized"? The fact that they murder their own people even more than foreigners? That makes them even more savage.

That is the irony; the apologists have to bend themselves into pretzels.

 

[Tigerace117]

That is the irony; the apologists have to bend themselves into pretzels.

Pointing out how laughable and ignorant your claims about Russians’ “oriental nature” are isn’t “apologism” for anything bud.

 

[JBG]

Pointing out how laughable and ignorant your claims about Russians’ “oriental nature” are isn’t “apologism” for anything bud.

I suppose facts hurt.

 

[Tigerace117]

I suppose facts hurt.

Good thing you didn’t provide any.

 

[JBG]

Good thing you didn’t provide any.

The book that I cited, in the OP, The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life was about Lev Nussenbaum, a Jewish author from Baku, Azerbeijan, and books written by him, including Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, and Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur. Others include the recent best-seller, Freezing Order: A True Story of Money Laundering, Murder, and Surviving Vladimir Putin's Wrath by Bill Browder, books writeen by Lev Nussenbaum a/k/a Mohamed Essad Bey, Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur and, most recently before this one,The Great Upheaval: America and the Birth of the Modern World, 1788-1800 by Jay Winik. Russia's history has been one of warfare, not accomplishment, since the days the Vikings and the Rus tribes. See Vikings Wiki for more.

Maybe you will treat yourself to one or more of these.

 

[Tigerace117]

The book that I cited, in the OP, The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life was about Lev Nussenbaum, a Jewish author from Baku, Azerbeijan, and books written by him, including Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, and Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur. Others include the recent best-seller, Freezing Order: A True Story of Money Laundering, Murder, and Surviving Vladimir Putin's Wrath by Bill Browder, books writeen by Lev Nussenbaum a/k/a Mohamed Essad Bey, Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur and, most recently before this one,The Great Upheaval: America and the Birth of the Modern World, 1788-1800 by Jay Winik. Russia's history has been one of warfare, not accomplishment, since the days the Vikings and the Rus tribes. See Vikings Wiki for more.

Maybe you will treat yourself to one or more of these.

That’s nice.......and none of it can change the fact that your assertion of “Russia’s oriental nature” is complete garbage.

It’s also funny that you think warfare and accomplishment are somehow mutually exclusive.

 

[JBG]

That’s nice.......and none of it can change the fact that your assertion of “Russia’s oriental nature” is complete garbage.

It’s also funny that you think warfare and accomplishment are somehow mutually exclusive.

How do you describe Russia then? I give up.

 

[Tigerace117]

How do you describe Russia then? I give up.

Well gee, for starters I don’t engage in outdated and racist drivel about “oriental natures” this and the “hordes of the steppes” that.

 

[JBG]

Well gee, for starters I don’t engage in outdated and racist drivel about “oriental natures” this and the “hordes of the steppes” that.

Yet you are responding to it. Please provide backup. I site lots of reading material on the subject.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yet you are responding to it. Please provide backup. I site lots of reading material on the subject.

I already pointed out why your claims are so laughable ignorant in great detail. You clinging to racist drivel about “oriental nature” is pretty lame bud.

 

[watsup]

A direct western intervention is exponentially more likely to leave Ukraine a radioactive wasteland.

“Direct Western intervention”. *L*. Still parroting Putin propaganda, I see.

 

[Tigerace117]

“Direct Western intervention”. *L*. Still parroting Putin propaganda, I see.

Still pathetically unable to read I see.

“They are doing it because they know the West is too chicken to stop the slaughter and rape” is a clear reference to direct intervention, or rather the West being too “chicken” to do it.

 

[Chagos]

Yet you are responding to it. Please provide backup. I site lots of reading material on the subject.

Anyone can site "reading material" that either confirms his or her bias or actually provides the source of what one uncritically laps up.

That doesn't make for critical assessment of what one has read and certainly provides no proof of the ability to think critically.

In view of which this thread was a failure from the beginning and not unexpectedly either.

 

[JBG]

Anyone can site "reading material" that either confirms his or her bias or actually provides the source of what one uncritically laps up.

That doesn't make for critical assessment of what one has read and certainly provides no proof of the ability to think critically.

In view of which this thread was a failure from the beginning and not unexpectedly either.

While I should have spelled it as "cite" and not "site" you sill have to have ability to read to rebut my points. Apparently some are lacking.

 

[Chagos]

While I should have spelled it as "cite" and not "site" you sill have to have ability to read to rebut my points. Apparently some are lacking.

How you spelled makes no difference and beyond what I already posted on the ridiculousness of the stated assumptions, I'm done here.

 

[Chagos]

~............................................. I'm done here.

.....................save for pointing out the sources cited in the OP as being completely fraudulent.

Lev Nussbaum (Nussimbaum), first author cited in the OP, also wrote under the pen name of Essad Bey, second author cited, and both books cited are pure fiction.

Heavily criticized by any historian worth his or her salt, critiques include such evaluations as:

The only real aim of this book is to make money by creating a work - the product of a spiteful fantasy - that will delight undiscerning readers who seek sensationalism. The book spreads lies and slander about various nations, distorts historical events in a dishonest way, spreads miserable propaganda that assists the enemies of Azerbaijan and the Caucasus, and falsifies the descriptions of events relating to the recent past.

and

One might, however, write a good-sized book to point out the improbabilities and misunderstandings to which the author has given currency.... But the present reviewer would not willingly waste any more ink or paper in rescuing such a story from deserved oblivion.

IOW totally bullshit sources having led to a totally bullshit thread.

That's the result of somebody becoming enamored with a narrative that fits his bias to the point of being too lazy to research his sources.

Or maybe too dishonest????

 

[JBG]

.....................save for pointing out the sources cited in the OP as being completely fraudulent.

Lev Nussbaum (Nussimbaum), first author cited in the OP, also wrote under the pen name of Essad Bey, second author cited, and both books cited are pure fiction.

Heavily criticized by any historian worth his or her salt, critiques include such evaluations as:

The only real aim of this book is to make money by creating a work - the product of a spiteful fantasy - that will delight undiscerning readers who seek sensationalism. The book spreads lies and slander about various nations, distorts historical events in a dishonest way, spreads miserable propaganda that assists the enemies of Azerbaijan and the Caucasus, and falsifies the descriptions of events relating to the recent past.

and

One might, however, write a good-sized book to point out the improbabilities and misunderstandings to which the author has given currency.... But the present reviewer would not willingly waste any more ink or paper in rescuing such a story from deserved oblivion.

IOW totally bullshit sources having led to a totally bullshit thread.

That's the result of somebody becoming enamored with a narrative that fits his bias to the point of being too lazy to research his sources.

Or maybe too dishonest????

Let's just leave it as we disagree. He also wrote under name Kurban Said. He wrote a novel called Ali and Nino, which I highly recommend. An excerpt, from the book, summarizes the conflicting nature of the Oriental world and Europe:

"Dadiani looked at me thoughtfully: You have the soul of a desert man,' he said. 'Maybe that is the one real division between men: wood men and desert men. The Orient's dry intoxication comes from the desert, where hot wind and hot sand make men drunk, where the world is simple and without problems. The woods are full of questions. Only the desert does not ask, does not give, and does not promise anything. But the fire of the soul comes from the wood. The desert man-I can see him--has but one face, and knows but one truth,and that truth fulfills him. The woodman has many faces. The fanatic comes from the desert, the creator from the woods. Maybe that is the main difference between East and West.

'That is why we Armenians and Georgians love the wood' Melik Nachararyan interrupted, a fat man from one of the noblest Armenian families. He had protruding eyes, bushy eyebrows, and was inclined to philosophy and drinking. We goton well together. He drank to me and cried: 'Ali Khan! Eagles come from the mountains, tigers from the jungle. What comes from the desert? 'Lions and warriors,' I answered

 

[Chagos]

Let's just leave it as we disagree. He also wrote under name Kurban Said. He wrote a novel called Ali and Nino, which I highly recommend. An excerpt, from the book, summarizes the conflicting nature of the Oriental world and Europe:

It's not a question of mere disagreement, you cited an author revealed as being a pathological liar and that's what needs to be pointed out.

As to the authorship of Ali and Nino, that is vastly disputed except for the fact that Nussimbaum did NOT write it.

That's the level of citations and sources you contaminated this sub-forum with, a liar, a cheat and a literary thief.

.............making this thread, as already pointed out, a total fail.

 

[JBG]

As to the authorship of Ali and Nino, that is vastly disputed except for the fact that Nussimbaum did NOT write it.

How do you know that Nussenbaum did not write it? I tend to believe Tom Reiss, the author of The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life over "Chagos." As far as the remainder of what you say about Nussenbaum, under his various pen names, you don't like your illusions of Stalin's inner child being shattered.

It's not a question of mere disagreement, you cited an author revealed as being a pathological liar and that's what needs to be pointed out.

You are entitled to your opinion. I did not assail you as a "pathological liar." Please show authority that he is one.

That's the level of citations and sources you contaminated this sub-forum with, a liar, a cheat and a literary thief.

Proof? Why the personal attack?

.............making this thread, as already pointed out, a total fail.

If you don't enjoy posting on a "total fail" thread then why do you?

 

[Chagos]

The OP has aptly demonstrated what sources he prefers over actual historical factuality and in that process has disqualified himself completely where any veracity of the cited premise is concerned.

Posting (as such) in such an abysmal failure may not be much of an enjoyment, but pointing this failure out for the benefit of the general public gives, at least, satisfaction.

 

[Fabiusbile]

The Asiatic/Oriental nature of the Russian people, from the steppes on eastward, did not really ever go away. Russia never really joined the West. See, e.g. The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life was about Lev Nussenbaum, a Jewish author from Baku, Azerbeijan, and books written by him, including Blood and Oil in the Orient: My childhood in Baku and my hair-raising escape through the Caucasus and Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum, and Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West by Walter Laqueur.

Russia has tried, on a few occasions, to look westward, towards Europe and even rebelling America during and after the Revolutionary War. Peter the Great built St. Petersburg, a port city that always looked to trade. Czar Catherine the Great had a dalliance with major authors of her day, such as Diderot. But the hordes of the steppes were never far behind. As detailed by authors in the early 1900's, such as Essad Bey, the soul of the country was exceeding backwards. When Stalin took over, he wasted no time in fomenting the Holodomer, a planned famine that killed millions of Ukrainians. Does what Putin is doing look so novel?

Perhaps that's why the descendants of so many Russians call America home.

Such a charm)))... read the works of an Austrian sometime, he called us "Untermensch" there. His name was Adolf.
But yes, for you who see us as enemies, we are a Horde, angry, hungry, not people... pray that we do not win in the current confrontation... for, woe to the vanquished.

PS: to those who are trying to intercede in this topic for us, for the Russians... Don't, seriously. You can't explain anything to these people with xenophobic views.

 

[Chagos]

Such a charm)))... read the works of an Austrian sometime, he called us "Untermensch" there. His name was Adolf.
But yes, for you who see us as enemies, we are a Horde, angry, hungry, not people... pray that we do not win in the current confrontation... for, woe to the vanquished.

PS: to those who are trying to intercede in this topic for us, for the Russians... Don't, seriously. You can't explain anything to these people with xenophobic views.

FWIW, I, for one, am not doing that, seeing how it's not even necessary IMO.

In the currently prevalent geo-political scenario one can, depending on where one stands, support or condemn Kremlin behavior and actions, but using the OP's BS as a basis for said condemnation is the sure-fire method of disqualifying oneself completely.

Just as the OP has done from post #1.

That's the only thing worth addressing and thus pointing out.