Hey Martin Supporters... It's time you were educated and enlightened

[Moot]

Problem being, Moot, that theories don't hold water in a court of law. We can theorize all day, every day. What stands in the court, are facts.

There are two sides to this story and we only know one and that one has a lot of holes in it.

 

[Arbo]

There are two sides to this story and we only know one and that one has a lot of holes in it.

Oh good lord, why don't you just say you want a different story than what all the evidence and experts say is what happened?

 

[Josie]

I have a theory that Zimmerman may have started to reach for his gun before Trayvon punched him. If that was the case, then who was defending himself from who?

Even if that happened, Martin then became the aggressor. Zimmerman didn't have to just lay there and take it just because he might have started reaching for his gun before he was dropped to the ground.

 

[Caine]

Well I listen to Hip-Hop, yet I am not in jail, I have a job, my own place and I'm not in jail. Looks like your assumption is flawed.

I didn't say LISTEN to........ you don't seem to be following.

Im talking about people who EMULATE the Hip-Hop Culture.

 

[Grim17]

There are two sides to this story and we only know one and that one has a lot of holes in it.

Actually, his story didn't have a lot of holes in it, which is why he was found not guilty. I suggest you go to YouTube and watch Detective Serino's testimony again, since you seem to have forgotten everything that was presented at the trial.

 

[Moot]

Actually, his story didn't have a lot of holes in it, which is why he was found not guilty. I suggest you go to YouTube and watch Detective Serino's testimony again, since you seem to have forgotten everything that was presented at the trial.

The trial. Lets just say the trial left a lot to be desired.

 

[Grim17]

The trial. Lets just say the trial left a lot to be desired.

I'm sure it did, seeing as it didn't turn out the way you had hoped it would... But that doesn't change the fact that the lead detective in the case testified that there were no holes in his story or inconsistencies, at least nothing that in his mind were of any significance. He testified that the evidence and witness statements, none of which Zimmerman had any knowledge of at the time, supported Zimmerman's version of events, and when asked on the stand if he believed he was telling the truth, without hesitating he responded yes.

That is very, very powerful stuff.

 

[Moot]

I'm sure it did, seeing as it didn't turn out the way you had hoped it would...

Thats not how I remember it....

http://www.debatepolitics.com/zimme...3-w-395-619-1357-1549-a-8.html#post1062051716

But that doesn't change the fact that the lead detective in the case testified that there were no holes in his story or inconsistencies, at least nothing that in his mind were of any significance. He testified that the evidence and witness statements, none of which Zimmerman had any knowledge of at the time, supported Zimmerman's version of events, and when asked on the stand if he believed he was telling the truth, without hesitating he responded yes.

That is very, very powerful stuff.

Zimmerman was the only witness. He may have seemed very convincing...but....was everything he said the truth? He changed his story a couple of times to investigators. Rachael heard Trayvon say one thing...and Zimmerman heard another. What did Zimmerman do during the four minutes after he lost sight of Trayvon? He didn't go back to his SUV. Where was Trayvon during those four minutes? Did Zimmerman reach for his gun before Trayvon punched him? Did Zimmerman reach for his gun before Trayvon punched him? Did Zimmerman reach for his gun before Trayvon punched him? It's highly plausible.

 

[Excon]

There are two sides to this story and we only know one and that one has a lot of holes in it.

There are no holes in it.
If you see ahole, you are choosing to see that which does not exist.

He changed his story a couple of times to investigators.

No he didn't.

Rachael heard Trayvon say one thing...and Zimmerman heard another.

DeeDee is a known liar who's account is suspect.
She isn't credible, and wasn't a credible witness to the juror who has spoken out.

What did Zimmerman do during the four minutes after he lost sight of Trayvon? He didn't go back to his SUV.

The four minutes from the time he said the suspicious person was running, to the first 911 call? The same four minutes that Trayvon had to make it home?
That four minutes?
What has Zimmerman said about that time?
He got out of his vehicle. Started to follow but it was suggested he not do that.

So he stopped following but acknowledges looking about at the T, and then continued to the end to look for an address.
Attempted to get his flashlight to work.
Headed back to his vehicle.
Looked about again at the T, and then continued on to his vehicle but then Trayvon came out of the darkness to effectuate his attack.


How long do you think that all took?

Where was Trayvon during those four minutes?

He either made it home, or he was laying in wait.
Either way, he made a conscious decision to engage Zimmerman and took action to do so.

Did Zimmerman reach for his gun before Trayvon punched him? It's highly plausible.

No it is not. Nor is it supported by any of the evidence.
It is actually an absurd assertion.
He was supposedly telling DeeDee everything and yet he didn't tell her that, no did he make any verbal exclamation that the creepy ass cracker had a gun.
Nor did he say anything to John Good that the guy had a gun.
It is a ludicrous assertion.

 

[KLATTU]

Actually, his story didn't have a lot of holes in it, which is why he was found not guilty..

Yes. Precisely. Exactly.
Whatt holes?
Repeating lw talking points- like Zimmerman 'stalked ' Martin. Or ' Zimmerman followed MArtin after he was told not to" is not punching holes in a story.

 

[Arbo]

The trial. Lets just say the trial left a lot to be desired.

Show some intellectual integrity and say what you mean: The outcome wasn't what you believe it should be and thus the whole thing was wrong, a miscarriage of justice, because YOU know more than the prosecutors and the detectives and all the other morons that couldn't get Z found guilty.

 

[Moot]

There are no holes in it.
If you see ahole, you are choosing to see that which does not exist.

Actually, there are quite a few holes. Zimmermans written and oral statements to the police don't match what he told the dispatcher. He didn't tell the dispatcher that Trayvon was circling his SUV. All he said was that Trayvon was walking toward him, staring and after he walked past, Zimmerman got out of his SUV and the next thing he said was that Trayvon was running and that he was following him. Zimmerman had been following Trayvon for about 15 seconds before the dispatcher told him that wasn't neccessary. No mention of Trayvon circling his SUV during the entire call.

No he didn't.

Yes, he did.

Zimmerman’s Police Statements Are Not Consistent With Established Facts | The View From LL2

DeeDee is a known liar who's account is suspect.
She isn't credible, and wasn't a credible witness to the juror who has spoken out.

Zimmerman lied to the police, too.

The four minutes from the time he said the suspicious person was running, to the first 911 call? The same four minutes that Trayvon had to make it home? That four minutes? What has Zimmerman said about that time?
He got out of his vehicle. Started to follow but it was suggested he not do that.

Actually it looks more like it was two and a half minutes from the time Zimmerman's call to the police ended to his confrontation with Trayvon.

So he stopped following but acknowledges looking about at the T, and then continued to the end to look for an address. Attempted to get his flashlight to work. Headed back to his vehicle. Looked about again at the T, and then continued on to his vehicle but then Trayvon came out of the darkness to effectuate his attack.

How long do you think that all took?

Since it only took 15 seconds to follow Trayon before he was told not to, two and half minutes was more than enough time for Zimmerman to get back to his SUV and/or the mailboxes. That highly suggests that Zimmerman was still actively looking for Trayvon.

He either made it home, or he was laying in wait.
Either way, he made a conscious decision to engage Zimmerman and took action to do so.

Trayvon probably thought Zimmerman was still following him...which apparently he was. I doubt Trayvon would have wanted Zimmerman to know where he lived. The altercation took place about 200 yards from Trayvon's house.

No it is not. Nor is it supported by any of the evidence.
It is actually an absurd assertion.
He was supposedly telling DeeDee everything and yet he didn't tell her that, no did he make any verbal exclamation that the creepy ass cracker had a gun.

If Zimmerman started to reach for his gun then Trayvon wouldn't have had time to tell Rachael anything if he wanted to stop Zimmerman. That fits the evidence, too.

Nor did he say anything to John Good that the guy had a gun.
It is a ludicrous assertion.

Zimmerman was the one with a gun....and doing all the screaming. The altercation took a little less than a minute from the dropped call with Rachael to the time Trayvon was shot.


Interactive: Map of Trayvon Martin shooting death | MiamiHerald.com

 

[Grim17]

Actually, there are quite a few holes. Zimmermans written and oral statements to the police don't match what he told the dispatcher. He didn't tell the dispatcher that Trayvon was circling his SUV. All he said was that Trayvon was walking toward him, staring and after he walked past, Zimmerman got out of his SUV and the next thing he said was that Trayvon was running and that he was following him. Zimmerman had been following Trayvon for about 15 seconds before the dispatcher told him that wasn't neccessary. No mention of Trayvon circling his SUV during the entire call.

So what? When he said "He's coming to check me out" that's probably when it happened... Not mentioning an irrelevant detail while on the phone is not a "hole" in his story. I mean what possible significance could that have on anything?

Variations in wording, and the inclusions or exclusion of minor details is a far cry from his story being full of holes.... It's like Detective Serino said, there are always details that people forget or don't mention, which is totally natural when a person is involved in a traumatic or stressful situations like he was in. It's a cops job to pick a suspects story apart and to recognize when they are being truthful or being deceptive, so if that crap you're talking about had meant squat, don't you think detective Serino would have said something about it, rather than testifying under oath that he believed Zimmerman was being truthful?

But I guess you and the rest of the anti-Zimmerman crowd are a far greater authorities on crime and criminal behavior, than veteran homicide detectives are, huh?

 

[Excon]

Actually, there are quite a few holes.

No, there isn't.

Zimmermans written and oral statements to the police don't match what he told the dispatcher.

1.) A suspicious person report does not have to included every damn detail.
Regardless, same story.

He didn't tell the dispatcher that Trayvon was circling his SUV.

:doh
More of this bs?
Do you understand how the mind works? And how one may believe they relayed something yet didn't?
Do you understand these things?
They are not holes, but common occurrences.

And as testified, these are expected. If they were not there, it would then be likely he was lying.

Yes, he did.

No, there was no change in his account. It remained the same and consistent.
And :doh The View From LL2 isn't going to help you.
She has an over active imagination and let it get the best of her when she wrote that in June of 2012.
Hell, she didn't even understand some of the evidence.

Zimmerman lied to the police, too.

Wrong!
No he didn't.
Deedee's was a case of knowingly telling an untruth. That is called lying.
You have nothing like that from Zimmerman. Nothing, nada!

Actually it looks more like it was two and a half minutes from the time Zimmerman's call to the police ended to his confrontation with Trayvon.
Since it only took 15 seconds to follow Trayon before he was told not to, two and half minutes was more than enough time for Zimmerman to get back to his SUV and/or the mailboxes. That highly suggests that Zimmerman was still actively looking for Trayvon.

1.) It can take two and a half minutes to do what he stated.
2.) And, it still doesn't matter.
And #3, Are you not paying attention? Do you not know the evidence? He stated he looked down the walk, twice. Once when headed East, and once heading West on his way back to his vehicle. That is called "actively looking for". He just wasn't following, as there was no one to follow.

Trayvon probably thought Zimmerman was still following him...which apparently he was.

Which, according to the evidence, he apparently was not.

I doubt Trayvon would have wanted Zimmerman to know where he lived. The altercation took place about 200 yards from Trayvon's house.

And as stated, he either doubled back or he laid in wait during those four minutes, as it was enough time for him to get home.

No it is not. Nor is it supported by any of the evidence.
It is actually an absurd assertion.
He was supposedly telling DeeDee everything and yet he didn't tell her that, no did he make any verbal exclamation that the creepy ass cracker had a gun.

If Zimmerman started to reach for his gun then Trayvon wouldn't have had time to tell Rachael anything if he wanted to stop Zimmerman. That fits the evidence, too.

No, it contradicts the evidence.
And since it contradicts it, it also isn't plausible.

You seem to forget that Trayvon came at Zimmerman from behind in a hasty manner, yelling his question, and immediately struck Zimmerman when he arrived upon him. That is an attack.
All Zimmerman had time to do was reach into his front pocket, look at what he was doing, when he looked up, he was struck.
Trayvon was not concerned with Zimmerman reaching into his pocket. He was concerned with his attack.

Nor did he say anything to John Good that the guy had a gun.
It is a ludicrous assertion.

Zimmerman was the one with a gun....and doing all the screaming. The altercation took a little less than a minute from the dropped call with Rachael to the time Trayvon was shot.

That is right. Zimmerman was the one with the gun and calling for help.

By your reply, I would have to say you don't understand what was said.
You are suggesting that it is highly plausible that Zimmerman reached for his gun before Trayvon punched him.
Besides the evidence saying that is impossible, it isn't plausible because of the fact that Trayvon did not call out to John Good and say the guy he was on top of had a gun. Heck, Trayvon was not calling out or screaming, "help he has a gun".

Good told him to stop, but he didn't. Nor did he call out for help and say the guy has a gun.
That is a pretty clear indication that it was not out until Zimmerman said it came out.
The fact that John Good didn't see a gun out, is another indication that it happened the way the evidence says it did.

 

[Arbo]

Actually,

You are again incorrect. How much energy are you really going to keep spending on this?

 

[Moot]

1.) A suspicious person report does not have to included every damn detail.
Regardless, same story.

Inconsistency is usually a red flag. Every time Zimmerman retells his story, it changes....

George Zimmerman Hannity interview: Special prosecutor will use George Zimmerman's Fox News interview against him - Orlando Sentinel

:doh More of this bs? Do you understand how the mind works? And how one may believe they relayed something yet didn't? Do you understand these things? They are not holes, but common occurrences.

Killing someone isn't a common occurence for most people. After a person kills someone, they're going to add and/or omit details in their favor. Thats to be expected, too.

No, there was no change in his account. It remained the same and consistent.

Zimmerman's account to the police was not consistent with the dispatcher recording or the interview he gave to Hannity or the accounts from his father and brother.

Zimmerman still hasn't explained what he was really doing for the 2 1/2 minutes after his call with the dispatcher ended. He says he was looking for the street sign...but theres only three streets in the complex and Zimmerman, the NW guy who had made many, many calls and reports to the police, didn't know what street he was on? Thats hard to believe.

And :doh The View From LL2 isn't going to help you. She has an over active imagination and let it get the best of her when she wrote that in June of 2012. Hell, she didn't even understand some of the evidence.

Susan Simpson had the links to the factual evidence and she made some good points. And too, she's a civil litigator practicing in the Northern Virginia area and graduated from George Washington University. LL2 is the law library at George Washington University. While I didn't agree with everything she said, her opinions are probably more valid than most.

Wrong! No he didn't. Deedee's was a case of knowingly telling an untruth. That is called lying. You have nothing like that from Zimmerman. Nothing, nada!

Rachael lied to get out of going to the funeral and meeting TMs mom and about her age because she didn't want to get involved. But her trial testimony was consistent with her orginal account to the investigators and Zimmermans timeline. She is no more a liar than Zimmerman's continual changing of his story.

1.) It can take two and a half minutes to do what he stated.

It could also have taken 30 to 60 seconds to do what you described...so what was he doing during the rest of the time? He admitted to the police that he was still actively following Trayvon after the dispatcher said it wasn't needed.

2.) And, it still doesn't matter. And #3, Are you not paying attention? Do you not know the evidence? He stated he looked down the walk, twice. Once when headed East, and once heading West on his way back to his vehicle. That is called "actively looking for". He just wasn't following, as there was no one to follow.

Zimmerman was actively looking for Trayvon in the vicinity where he last saw him heading for the back exit...which was also near Trayvons house. Rachael testified that Trayvon said he lost him, but then he said, "he's right behind me again."

Rachel Jeantel, Trayvon Martin Friend: Teen Was Trying To Escape George Zimmerman

Which, according to the evidence, he apparently was not.

According to the evidence, he was.

And as stated, he either doubled back or he laid in wait during those four minutes, as it was enough time for him to get home.

You're speculating.

No, it contradicts the evidence. And since it contradicts it, it also isn't plausible.

It doesn't contradict Rachels account.

You seem to forget that Trayvon came at Zimmerman from behind in a hasty manner, yelling his question, and immediately struck Zimmerman when he arrived upon him. That is an attack.

You seem to forget that Zimmerman was still following Trayvon when they encountered each other. Zimmerman said many things.."emerged out of the darkness, he came out of the bushes, he came from behind....

All Zimmerman had time to do was reach into his front pocket, look at what he was doing, when he looked up, he was struck.

Zimmerman said he was reaching for his cell phone. But was he really? Trayvon could have thought...or perhaps saw that he was reaching for a gun.....

"...Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave.." Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel

Trayvon was not concerned with Zimmerman reaching into his pocket. He was concerned with his attack.

How do you know what Trayvon was concerned with? He was being followed for at least 4 or 5 minutes....

"...She [Rachel] said Martin tried to lose Zimmerman and thought he did. He then said "Oh he's right behind me again," according to her testimony, before asking Zimmerman "Why are you following me?"....."
Lawyer: Trayvon Martin's girlfriend heard altercation | News - Home

"Oh, he's right behind me again." Trayvon was concerned that Zimmerman was still following him. It also suggests that it was Zimmerman who came up behind Trayvon ...or Trayvon stopped running and turned to face his pursuer.

That is right. Zimmerman was the one with the gun and calling for help.

Yeah, so why didn't he try pull his gun out when he was being beaten and smothered? Wasn't it threatening enough?

By your reply, I would have to say you don't understand what was said. You are suggesting that it is highly plausible that Zimmerman reached for his gun before Trayvon punched him. Besides the evidence saying that is impossible, it isn't plausible because of the fact that Trayvon did not call out to John Good and say the guy he was on top of had a gun. Heck, Trayvon was not calling out or screaming, "help he has a gun" Good told him to stop, but he didn't. Nor did he call out for help and say the guy has a gun.

Trayvon might not have heard him because of Zimmerman's yelling, "help". It was only few seconds from the time Good said "cut it out", called "911 and then heard a gun shot....

George Zimmerman trial: Neighbor testifies Trayvon Martin was straddling Zimmerman moments before fatal gunshot - Crimesider - CBS News

That is a pretty clear indication that it was not out until Zimmerman said it came out.
The fact that John Good didn't see a gun out, is another indication that it happened the way the evidence says it did.

Good didn't see Trayvon throw any punches either.

It's interesting that Zimmerman didn't feel threatened enough to use his gun while his head was getting bashed onto the concrete and he was being smothered, but he did after Trayvon saw his gun and alledgedly said "your gonna die tonight, mf". Zimmerman waited until Trayvon verbally threatened to kill him...with what? Zimmerman's own gun?

"...As I slid the suspect covered my mouth and nose and stopped my breathing. At this point, I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and said “you gonna die tonight motha [****in'?]“. I unholstered my firearm in fear for my life as he had assured he was going to kill me and fired on shot into his torso..."

This statement reads like it was perfectly scripted to provide a self-defense claim. Zimmerman’s own stated reason for shooting Trayvon was not based on Trayvon’s unarmed physical assault, but rather on Trayvon’s “assur[ances]” that he would kill Zimmerman. If you’re going to claim self-defense, it can’t hurt to make the claim that your victim conveniently notified you of his murderous intent seconds before you shot him.

Apparently, Zimmerman did not consider using lethal force during the beating until Trayvon made a threat to take Zimmerman’s own gun away, and the “fear for [his] life” only came as a result of Zimmerman’s own firearm being introduced to the fight.....
Zimmerman’s Police Statements Are Not Consistent With Established Facts | The View From LL2

The threat to Zimmerman's life came from his own gun.

 

[Moot]

Show some intellectual integrity and say what you mean: The outcome wasn't what you believe it should be and thus the whole thing was wrong, a miscarriage of justice, because YOU know more than the prosecutors and the detectives and all the other morons that couldn't get Z found guilty.

Are you accusing me of having a brain? Sure looks like it. lol

Sorry if you can't handle people discussing and debating the topic, Arbo. But thats your problem, not mine.

 

[buck]

Inconsistency is usually a red flag. Every time Zimmerman retells his story, it changes....

As came out during the trial, minor inconsistencies are not red flags. It is normal. The red flag is when the story never changes. That would be indicative of lying. The human mind is crazy that way.

 

[Moot]

You are again incorrect. How much energy are you really going to keep spending on this?

WTF do you care how much energy I spend on it?

 

[Moot]

As came out during the trial, minor inconsistencies are not red flags. It is normal. The red flag is when the story never changes. That would be indicative of lying. The human mind is crazy that way.

Yeah, but it doesn't hurt to discuss it and see just how consistant the inconsistancies really are. If the story never changed it definitely would look scripted. But Zimmerman's inconsistancies look more like he's padding his story to make himself look more like the victim rather than the tuff guy pursuer who created and aggravated the entire situation. If only he had stayed in his truck and waited for the police.

 

[buck]

Yeah, but it doesn't hurt to discuss it and see just how consistant the inconsistancies really are. If the story never changed it definitely would look scripted. But Zimmerman's inconsistancies look more like he's padding his story to make himself look more like the victim rather than the tuff guy pursuer who created and aggravated the entire situation. If only he had stayed in his truck and waited for the police.

They really do no such thing, but I agree. Had he stayed in his truck, it probably would not have happened. I woudl also say he was under no obligation to stay in his truck and getting out of his truck doesn't warrant what Trayvon did.

I have stated, both made msitakes. Trayvon's mistakes contributed to his own death by taking the actions he took. George contributed to his own injuries and the ordeal he has to go through due to his decisions.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yeah, but it doesn't hurt to discuss it and see just how consistant the inconsistancies really are. If the story never changed it definitely would look scripted. But Zimmerman's inconsistancies look more like he's padding his story to make himself look more like the victim rather than the tuff guy pursuer who created and aggravated the entire situation. If only he had stayed in his truck and waited for the police.

Just how is getting out of your vehicle to attempt to observe the current location of a "suspicious" person more wrong than violently attacking a "creepy ass cracka"? To try to attribute all "bad decisions" to Zimmerman is simply irrational, as the jury has wisely decided. Placing one's self in "harms way" first requires that the harm exists, if you did not consider Martin dangerous, in the first place, then what exactly was Zimmerman's great wrong? Far too many place great stock in the dispatcher's comment that Zimmerman did not have to follow Martin, yet ignore that same dispatcher twice requested that Zimmerman tell them if Martin did anything else.

 

[Grim17]

Inconsistency is usually a red flag. Every time Zimmerman retells his story, it changes....

It is? Well I wish we knew what the police thought about these "red flags", don't you?

Oh wait, we do know... Remember, Detective Serino testified under oath about them... But of course you know better than him, right?

 

[Arbo]

Are you accusing me of having a brain? Sure looks like it. lol

Sorry if you can't handle people discussing and debating the topic, Arbo. But thats your problem, not mine.

I would never make a false accusation like that. If you read what I wrote properly you would see I was saying you are the one who thinks they are smarter than all those that were actually involved in the case.

There is no discussion or debate happening on the topic, there is you and a few others who are unhappy with the outcome, who are set in their heads that this was a racist event and that the facts of the case are wrong, spouting off such nonsense, and those who paid attention to the case and are familiar with the law constantly correcting you folks.

WTF do you care how much energy I spend on it?

I don't. But it seems foolish as the only one you are convincing is yourself.

 

[Penderyn]

Racist gunmen disgrace the US. What more is there to say?