Helping the poor[W:748]

[danielpalos]

Re: Helping the poor

That is because the state owns everything in that system.

No it doesn't. Our form of socialism allows for rights in private property.

 

[danielpalos]

Re: Helping the poor

Only in your world...

I tend to resort to the fewest fallacies; so, whom do you believe is bearing the Truest witness under our form of Nurture within our form of Nature?

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

You didn't answer my question.

You haven't answered any questions in this thread. You've been acting like you're doing a people a favor by asking them questions and asking them to explain their positions when you've avoided defining every point you've raised.

Look, we're not stupid here, we see what you're trying to do, it's kind of like asking the following question "Do you STILL cheat on your husband?" Now answer that question with only a yes or no - that's all that we're interested in, a yes or no. Don't bother with any other type of response, either a Yes or a No. See, lot's of us can play at your game.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

You haven't answered any questions in this thread. You've been acting like you're doing a people a favor by asking them questions and asking them to explain their positions when you've avoided defining every point you've raised.

Look, we're not stupid here, we see what you're trying to do, it's kind of like asking the following question "Do you STILL cheat on your husband?" Now answer that question with only a yes or no - that's all that we're interested in, a yes or no. Don't bother with any other type of response, either a Yes or a No. See, lot's of us can play at your game.

You're being defensive and reading things into my posts that aren't there. You have no grounds to make accusations about my integrity as you have here and it speaks ill of you that you do. I never asked anyone for a simple yes or no. You dodge my question then get all pissy when your childish tricks of distraction don't work. Are you going to answer my question or not?

 

[The Mark]

Re: Helping the poor

That's the word I was looking for

IMO the goal of social justice is to provide equal outcome. Whereas true justice lies in providing equal opportunity.

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

You're being defensive and reading things into my posts that aren't there. You have no grounds to make accusations about my integrity as you have here and it speaks ill of you that you do. I never asked anyone for a simple yes or no. You dodge my question then get all pissy when your childish tricks of distraction don't work. Are you going to answer my question or not?

It appears that you're not bright enough to recognize a loaded question that is presented to you gift wrapped. It was glaringly obvious which is why I went overboard in stressing the Yes or No response. Either way you answer you're damned. For men this question takes the form "Do you STILL beat your wife?" Either a yes or no is a damning answer. That's the game you're trying to play. You're so damn transparent, it's pathetic. Do you get it, I'm not accusing you of cheating on your husband, I'm accusing you of playing Gotcha games.

Here are the issues on the table.

1.) You define social justice for the people here who have extended you the courtesy of treating you like a debate partner. You brought up the issue, now dig in and engage.

2.) You claim that you support Equal Opportunity. I've shown you that when equal opportunity exists it will result in unequal outcomes. I asked you if you were ok with those. You ignored the question and didn't even bother engaging in any form. You're simply interested in playing Gotcha.

 

[grip]

Re: Helping the poor

How about a person works for their food? What a novel concept. Why would you expect anyone to give you or another anything?

How about most of us are held accountable for our actions by nature and society anyway. Nobody is going to suffer if someone doesn't go hungry. There is no excuse for anyone in a nation, as wealthy as ours, to have to be in lack of nutrition.

And the problem with teaching people to fish, now days, is that a greedy few are long netting all the catch for themselves.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

It appears that you're not bright enough to recognize a loaded question that is presented to you gift wrapped. It was glaringly obvious which is why I went overboard in stressing the Yes or No response. Either way you answer you're damned. For men this question takes the form "Do you STILL beat your wife?" Either a yes or no is a damning answer. That's the game you're trying to play. You're so damn transparent, it's pathetic. Do you get it, I'm not accusing you of cheating on your husband, I'm accusing you of playing Gotcha games.

Here are the issues on the table.

1.) You define social justice for the people here who have extended you the courtesy of treating you like a debate partner. You brought up the issue, now dig in and engage.

2.) You claim that you support Equal Opportunity. I've shown you that when equal opportunity exists it will result in unequal outcomes. I asked you if you were ok with those. You ignored the question and didn't even bother engaging in any form. You're simply interested in playing Gotcha.

It appears you are too hateful and suspicious to believe than a person could be genuinely interested in understanding another persons point of view. You see what you want to see. A loaded question where there isn't one.

You still haven't answered my question.

BTW, I would know if my question was loaded. If I don't know then clearly it wasn't me intent to manipulate. So I am either a liar or the question isn't loaded.

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

It appears you are too hateful and suspicious to believe than a person could be genuinely interested in understanding another persons point of view. You see what you want to see. A loaded question where there isn't one.

You still haven't answered my question.

BTW, I would know if my question was loaded. If I don't know then clearly it wasn't me intent to manipulate. So I am either liar or the question isn't loaded.

I'm certainly not a creationist, neither a Religious Creationist nor a Liberal Creationist. I believe in evolution. Do you?

Btw, why do you keep dodging the issue and running away from defining social justice?

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

..............

I'm certainly not a creationist, neither a Religious Creationist nor a Liberal Creationist. I believe in evolution. Do you?

WTF does that have to do with anything.

Btw, why do you keep dodging the issue and running away from defining social justice?

I did post how I define it I just did not post it to you. I extended you a courtesy by giving you credit for actually reading through peoples post here and assumed you would see it. I haven't dodged anything

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

WTF does that have to do with anything.

It's an answer to your question. Evolution is comprised of a number of forces, selection, drift and mutation. Evolution cannot occur where everything is static and uniform.

Here's a for instance that you can chew on:

Genome studies reveal that our species (Homo sapiens) mated with Neanderthals after leaving Africa.

But it was previously unclear what this Neanderthal DNA did and whether there were any implications for human health.

Between 2% and 4% of the genetic blueprint of present-day non-Africans came from Neanderthals.​

We are not all the same.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

It's an answer to your question. Evolution is comprised of a number of forces, selection, drift and mutation. Evolution cannot occur where everything is static and uniform.

Here's a for instance that you can chew on:

Genome studies reveal that our species (Homo sapiens) mated with Neanderthals after leaving Africa.

But it was previously unclear what this Neanderthal DNA did and whether there were any implications for human health.

Between 2% and 4% of the genetic blueprint of present-day non-Africans came from Neanderthals.​

We are not all the same.

So ( and this is a sincere question) you seem to be telling me that I have properly interpreted your earlier post. Yet, as you pointed out, you do not want to come right out and say yes. Why? Would you assume I would not listen to your argument in support of your position?

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

So ( and this is a sincere question) you seem to be telling me that I have properly interpreted your earlier post. Yet, as you pointed out, you do not want to come right out and say yes. Why? Would you assume I would not listen to your argument in support of your position?

I have no problem in stating my position. I have numerous 50+ page threads here where this has been beaten to death. Use the search function and you'll find plenty to read. I simply don't want to derail this thread. The simple point here is that anyone who claims that they believe in evolution cannot, by definition, believe that there are no genetic differences between racial groups nor can they believe that some magical force-field was in operation which prevented reproductively isolated groups from having selection effects, genetic drift and mutation influencing the evolution of the brain. In for a penny, in for a pound. Everything is on the table.

So, let's get back to the issue at hand - if we have an environment of equal opportunity, then we're going to face very unequal results, both from environmental factors like women choosing certain career paths and certain family/career balancing options which differ from men and from genetic differences playing out in the social sphere. This creates very unequal societies. Now what do we do? Again I point you to the Univ. Of Texas case on Affirmative Action. Is it justified for the Univ. of Texas to pass over better qualified poor white students in order to favor richer, but lesser qualified, black and Hispanic students in order to CREATE a more equal outcome?

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

............

... The simple point here is that anyone who claims that they believe in evolution cannot, by definition, believe that there are no genetic differences between racial groups nor can they believe that some magical force-field was in operation which prevented reproductively isolated groups from having selection effects, genetic drift and mutation influencing the evolution of the brain. In for a penny, in for a pound. Everything is on the table.

Well there are an awful lot of people who disagree with your conclusions so evidently, there is a way.

So, let's get back to the issue at hand - if we have an environment of equal opportunity, then we're going to face very unequal results, both from environmental factors like women choosing certain career paths and certain family/career balancing options which differ from men and from genetic differences playing out in the social sphere.

Did you read how I defined social justice. It's about opportunity not outcome.

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

Well there are an awful lot of people who disagree with your conclusions so evidently, there is a way.

Hence, Liberal Creationists. They believe in evolution right up until about 50,000 years ago when it magically stopped. This is the basis for how humanities and social sciences operate. Magic is magic, no matter if the magic is God or "not specified, now shut-up" and so creationism is creationism.

Did you read how I defined social justice. It's about opportunity not outcome.

So you're at serious odds with your fellow leftists and you're OK with growing inequality. That's cool.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Re: Helping the poor

Did you read how I defined social justice. It's about opportunity not outcome.

How do you deduce whether opportunity was ever truly equal?

Outcome.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

How do you deduce whether opportunity was ever truly equal?

Outcome.

Some people are just more capable than others. You really can't use outcome to determine the equality of opportunity.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

So you're at serious odds with your fellow leftists and you're OK with growing inequality. That's cool.

Or you do not accurately understand how "leftists" define social justice. And, no... I am not okay with growing inequality.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Re: Helping the poor

Some people are just more capable than others. You really can't use outcome to determine the equality of opportunity.

Then what can you do to correct opportunity without basing it, somehow or another, on the outcomes of the parents?

The whole thing about correcting unequal outcomes/opportunities/etc. is just beating around the bush. It's welfarism whether you're appealing to opportunity or outcome.

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

Or you do not accurately understand how "leftists" define social justice. And, no... I am not okay with growing inequality.

I understand these issues very, very well.

So you're not okay with growing inequality. If you were Queen, what would you do, if anything, to address the inequality which resulted from your culture of equal opportunity? I'm on the edge of my seat here. Will you prove me wrong when I claim that I understand the leftist mind?

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

Then what can you do to correct opportunity without basing it, somehow or another, on the outcomes of the parents?

The whole thing about correcting unequal outcomes/opportunities/etc. is just beating around the bush. It's welfarism whether you're appealing to opportunity or outcome.

I've never heard of the term welfarism. Did you make that up?

I want as many people to have good lives as possible even if it costs me a little because I value the well-being of my community and my fellow humans. You want to turn that sentiment into some evil deed?

 

[RiverDad]

Re: Helping the poor

I've never heard of the term welfarism. Did you make that up?

I want as many people to have good lives as possible even if it costs me a little because I value the well-being of my community and my fellow humans. You want to turn that sentiment into some evil deed?

I'm going to wager that no one cares how much money you donate to make other people's lives better. That's freedom.

 

[opendebate]

Re: Helping the poor

I'm going to wager that no one cares how much money you donate to make other people's lives better. That's freedom.

I don't make choices to impress anyone. So, that's irrelevant.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Re: Helping the poor

I've never heard of the term welfarism. Did you make that up?

Of course not. New Oxford American Dictionary describes it as the principles or policies associated with a welfare state.

I want as many people to have good lives as possible

Of course. Scientists studying endangered species also want those animals to have good lives and survive in the wild. Feeding them doesn't accomplish that.

even if it costs me a little because I value the well-being of my community and my fellow humans. You want to turn that sentiment into some evil deed?

Ask a biologist why it's evil to seek out and hand-feed an endangered species. They'll tell you. It's not that it's "evil," it's just that it doesn't accomplish anything in the long run. Note my signature line.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Helping the poor

How about a person works for their food? What a novel concept. Why would you expect anyone to give you or another anything?

Most of Snap money goes to feed children. Do you want to put children to work?