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Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

My argument is not that we should abolish Medicare. My argument is that it would be insanely stupid to go with a "Medicare for all" system of healthcare. Medicare for all would kill the private healthcare industry that it depends on for it's very existence. And it would bankrupt the government.


How so? The insurance layer adds to the cost. It seems to me that killing it would save a lot of money. The argument for "competition" is only because one plan offers this, and another offers that and offering choices would be a good thing. That would be a moot point if medicare for all covered everyone for everything. That's how I see it. ( medicare might not do this now, but I think it should ).

I don't see that it would bankrupt the country. See, health care dollars are already being spent. All MFA does is redirect dollars that are already being spent into a more efficient system ( because MFA covers everyone and eliminates the insurance layer which adds some 25% or so to the overall cost to society ).

Where competition should exist is 'do you want hospital A, or clinic B, or doctor C, etc etc. Let the service providers compete on service. Let MFA allow for choice of service providing.

Price, profit, money, etc, should be removed from the equation.

Now then, I've heard the argument that not all doctors subscribed to medicare. But, if that is all there was, they would have no choice.

I don't think doctors should be motivated by profit, in the first place, if that is their motivation, they shouldn't be doctors, they should switch to selling swimming pools, or something in the world of capitalism where capitalism works best. Yes, they shoudl be paid well, but becoming a millionaire should not be the motivation for someone entering the field of medicine.
 
I'm more on the pragmatic single payer idea where every one who cannot afford it can get medicare. That doesn't eliminate the private sector.

Even that would not work. The government is barely able to run the program for Seniors who have paid into it for their entire working careers.

[/QUOTE]Most dems I know are not anti-private sector, so I don't know where you are getting that idea. [/QUOTE]

From most libruls on the talkboards as well as most librul politicians including some that are running for president in 2020.



[/QUOTE]The goal is for no one to go without health care. It's not perfect, it's defects an be fixed, improved upon. One thing is clear, the state of health care prior to the ACA covered far less people. [/QUOTE]

In reality, the ACA resulted in more going without healthcare. Technically, more are insured, however the massive premiums and deductibles make that coverage a sick joke. Many with insurance are going without healthcare because they cannot afford the routine stuff after paying the massive premiums.




[/QUOTE]I'm not for replacing the established private systems with medicare. I'm for medicare for anyone who cannot afford a private plan, and who is not covered by employer plans, etc , I'm for medicare for anyone who wants it. That was the objective of the ACA, but it didn't do the trick. There are still people falling through the cracks.[/QUOTE]

That was not the objective of the ACA, even though they sold it that way. The objective of the ACA was ultimately single payer. That's why the original version of the bill included a clause where single payer would come into force if the ACA failed.

[/QUOTE]I disagree with Kamala Harris who wants to replace the entire system with medicare. I don't think America will go for it currently. She'll have to compromise, and I'm sure she will, when the time comes.[/QUOTE]

Since at least 2008, the democrat party's concept of compromise is: "You come around to our way of thinking and we do not give you anything". That's how we ended up with the ACA. The democrats were not willing to compromise an inch. That why it garnered no republican votes.
 
And how do you calculate that ?


At least $3 trillion is a sharp decrease on the previously claimed $35 trillion.

I failed to mention that my estimate was for one year. My bad. Both parties have accepted that it will cost 34 trillion over 10 years.
 
How so? The insurance layer adds to the cost. It seems to me that killing it would save a lot of money. The argument for "competition" is only because one plan offers this, and another offers that and offering choices would be a good thing. That would be a moot point if medicare for all covered everyone for everything. That's how I see it. ( medicare might not do this now, but I think it should ).

I don't see that it would bankrupt the country. See, health care dollars are already being spent. All MFA does is redirect dollars that are already being spent into a more efficient system ( because MFA covers everyone and eliminates the insurance layer which adds some 25% or so to the overall cost to society ).

Where competition should exist is 'do you want hospital A, or clinic B, or doctor C, etc etc. Let the service providers compete on service. Let MFA allow for choice of service providing.

Price, profit, money, etc, should be removed from the equation.

Now then, I've heard the argument that not all doctors subscribed to medicare. But, if that is all there was, they would have no choice.

I don't think doctors should be motivated by profit, in the first place, if that is their motivation, they shouldn't be doctors, they should switch to selling swimming pools, or something in the world of capitalism where capitalism works best. Yes, they shoudl be paid well, but becoming a millionaire should not be the motivation for someone entering the field of medicine.

You really do not have a clue. Medical students are not going to go through 8 to 16 years to become a medical doctor, specialist, etc if their is no profit motive in private healthcare. What we would end up with in a Medicare for all scenario is a minimum number of doctors and hospitals and massive rationing.
 
That was not the objective of the ACA, even though they sold it that way. The objective of the ACA was ultimately single payer. That's why the original version of the bill included a clause where single payer would come into force if the ACA failed.

Really seems like everything you "know" about the ACA is something you read in a chain email circa 2009.
 
Even that would not work. The government is barely able to run the program for Seniors who have paid into it for their entire working careers.
Most dems I know are not anti-private sector, so I don't know where you are getting that idea. [/QUOTE]

From most libruls on the talkboards as well as most librul politicians including some that are running for president in 2020.



[/QUOTE]The goal is for no one to go without health care. It's not perfect, it's defects an be fixed, improved upon. One thing is clear, the state of health care prior to the ACA covered far less people. [/QUOTE]

In reality, the ACA resulted in more going without healthcare. Technically, more are insured, however the massive premiums and deductibles make that coverage a sick joke. Many with insurance are going without healthcare because they cannot afford the routine stuff after paying the massive premiums.




[/QUOTE]I'm not for replacing the established private systems with medicare. I'm for medicare for anyone who cannot afford a private plan, and who is not covered by employer plans, etc , I'm for medicare for anyone who wants it. That was the objective of the ACA, but it didn't do the trick. There are still people falling through the cracks.[/QUOTE]

That was not the objective of the ACA, even though they sold it that way. The objective of the ACA was ultimately single payer. That's why the original version of the bill included a clause where single payer would come into force if the ACA failed.

[/QUOTE]I disagree with Kamala Harris who wants to replace the entire system with medicare. I don't think America will go for it currently. She'll have to compromise, and I'm sure she will, when the time comes.[/QUOTE]

Since at least 2008, the democrat party's concept of compromise is: "You come around to our way of thinking and we do not give you anything". That's how we ended up with the ACA. The democrats were not willing to compromise an inch. That why it garnered no republican votes.[/QUOTE]


please fix the misplaced quote tags. I'll answer it then.
 
You really do not have a clue. Medical students are not going to go through 8 to 16 years to become a medical doctor, specialist, etc if their is no profit motive in private healthcare. What we would end up with in a Medicare for all scenario is a minimum number of doctors and hospitals and massive rationing.


Well, depends. There aren't enough Truckers. The problem, they say, is pay. Well, if that is the problem, then trucking companies need to pay more.

It's all about the pay. If they are not getting enough, if we are not having enough doctors, the solution is to pay them more, and fix whatever griprs they have about the industry.

Also, I'm not against private health care. I'm against insurance managed health care. Rich people who can afford just to pay doctors directly, I have no problem with that. See, I'm not against a private system. but, with insurance, the lull people into a plan, which seems good, the basics are covered, but after 20 years of paying into it and you suddenly have a catastrophic illness, and because you forgot to tell your plan that you hand one of the items on the pre-existing conditions list, they deny your claim. Most of the people who are happy with their plans don't realize that they might not be covered when they need it most, this is why I don't trust " I'm happy with my plan" assertions. Well, the ACA stopped this, but we had listened to repubs, this crap would still be the status quo. Well, I don't think republicans views on health care have any credibility any more, None.


No one is saying not to pay doctors well. I don't think becoming a millionaire is the motive for most doctors,

Be careful about whom you accuse of not having a clue, it just might turn out that that person is you.

When you say "there is no profit", you seem to be implying doctors will not work for a great salary.

No one is saying they won't be paid well. Maybe not as much as they would in a private world, but plenty still. We could have a union, bargaining rights, etc. like it is done in other profession..

You are assuming that all people entering the profession are greedy. I'll bet, once it is understood that a modest sacrifice in pay will result in a state of health care in the US where it would be fo all persons, rich or poor, ie., they will be covered. If packaged that way, I'll bet there are plenty of students who will go for it. It's all in the packaging.


If you are going to use another country as an example, the argument remains the same: if pay is the problem then pay is the solution.


As to "the country can't afford it", you have asserted in another comment ( I believe ) remember, we are eliminating 25% of the cost of health care by removing the insurance layer. (I"ll have to study it to get the precise savings, but I do believe there will be a savings, given that health care dollars are already being spent, and under this approach, all we are doing is redirecting money that is already spent into a more efficient system. If you can refute this, please be specific ).
 
Well, depends. There aren't enough Truckers. The problem, they say, is pay. Well, if that is the problem, then trucking companies need to pay more.

It's all about the pay. If they are not getting enough, if we are not having enough doctors, the solution is to pay them more, and fix whatever griprs they have about the industry.

Also, I'm not against private health care. I'm against insurance managed health care. Rich people who can afford just to pay doctors directly, I have no problem with that. See, I'm not against a private system. but, with insurance, the lull people into a plan, which seems good, the basics are covered, but after 20 years of paying into it and you suddenly have a catastrophic illness, and because you forgot to tell your plan that you hand one of the items on the pre-existing conditions list, they deny your claim. Most of the people who are happy with their plans don't realize that they might not be covered when they need it most, this is why I don't trust " I'm happy with my plan" assertions. Well, the ACA stopped this, but we had listened to repubs, this crap would still be the status quo. Well, I don't think republicans views on health care have any credibility any more, None.


No one is saying not to pay doctors well. I don't think becoming a millionaire is the motive for most doctors,

Be careful about whom you accuse of not having a clue, it just might turn out that that person is you.

When you say "there is no profit", you seem to be implying doctors will not work for a great salary.

No one is saying they won't be paid well. Maybe not as much as they would in a private world, but plenty still. We could have a union, bargaining rights, etc. like it is done in other profession..

You are assuming that all people entering the profession are greedy. I'll bet, once it is understood that a modest sacrifice in pay will result in a state of health care in the US where it would be fo all persons, rich or poor, ie., they will be covered. If packaged that way, I'll bet there are plenty of students who will go for it. It's all in the packaging.


If you are going to use another country as an example, the argument remains the same: if pay is the problem then pay is the solution.


As to "the country can't afford it", you have asserted in another comment ( I believe ) remember, we are eliminating 25% of the cost of health care by removing the insurance layer. (I"ll have to study it to get the precise savings, but I do believe there will be a savings, given that health care dollars are already being spent, and under this approach, all we are doing is redirecting money that is already spent into a more efficient system. If you can refute this, please be specific ).

You are stepping on your own arguments. You say you are not against private healthcare, then you tout saving 25% by removing the insurance layer. And I am assuming no greed on the part of medical students inspired to become doctors. Most do not do it for the money, however like any other field, they expect to make enough money to pay off their enormous student debts and make at least an upper middle class living. As for how much anyone in any field makes, that should be decided by the market, not the government.
 
You are stepping on your own arguments. You say you are not against private healthcare, then you tout saving 25% by removing the insurance layer. And I am assuming no greed on the part of medical students inspired to become doctors. Most do not do it for the money, however like any other field, they expect to make enough money to pay off their enormous student debts and make at least an upper middle class living. As for how much anyone in any field makes, that should be decided by the market, not the government.



Not at all. Being against private insurance but not private care where the patient pays directly is to be for private care, just against insurance management of care (because it adds to the cost some 25% or so ).

I realize the argument of "choices", and one will choose which plan serves his or her needs, and why remove a choice? isn't that the American way? Perhaps, but I don't see it that way.

if medicare for all covered everything ( except maybe most teeth and cosmetic ) then the need for this or that plan for varying needs is a moot point, all needs will be met.
(if it isn't, then I would be for changing it so that it is ).

Given the above, I would support dental insurance, and cosmetic insurance ( one might get into an accident and be disfigured, requiring reconstructive surgery --- and-- if the reconstructive surgery is needed for essential quality of life, then I would support medicare paying for it )

This way, given that health care dollars are already being spent, all this system would do is redirect dollars already being spent in a new direction, one that is a more efficient system ( medicare spends 8% on admin, private insurance spends 25% -- but the details of this are being debated, of course. I'm saying in general one would be more efficient than the other ).

Also, I'm for free education, especially for doctors. The reason, damn the cost, this is mission critical stuff, stuff for national security because the health of the nation is an aspect of national security. A sick and uncared for nation is not in America's best interest, morally and strategically.

This would free up millions in disposable income and come right back to the economy, more than offsetting the cost.

Also, student debt is a huge stress, and stress leads to more sickness, and isn't that what we are trying to prevent in the first place?

Can't afford it? The reverse is true, we can't afford not to do it.

Okay, the " I don't want a government run health care" objection: .

I hate to tell you this, but you pretty much already have a government run health care.

The gov is all over health care, private and public. Health care is highly regulated.

But what kind of argument is that, anyway?

You are not complaining about government run police.

You are not complaining about government run defense.

You are not complaining about government fire department?

How is it that the only beef is when it is health care?


It's give and take, but the overriding issue is what is at stake.

What is at stake is that without medicare for all, millions will fall through the cracks and not get covered. The goal is everyone having health care, and that would be a net gain for society, including free school ( not all school, though, this would have to be weighed and valued as to what would be in the nation's interest to be public, and what would be more suitable to the private ).

Remember, before anyone knee jerks about "bankruptcy", I'm only talking about redirecting dollars that are already being spent into a more efficient system. Even if not totally true, I would support a modest increase in spending/taxes for a noble goal ( with the burden of taxes on the higher earners much more than the lower earners ).

For those who are arguing "bankruptcy", bring that argument on. I can rebut it (or at least I think I can)
 
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You seem to be one of those who knows nothing about our health care system. More of everything, why do you think it is so hard to get into medical school, because the health care profession does not want too many doctors. Even if there were more our present system is not set up to be competitive. It is hard to explain to someone who has not been part of it for a long time to see how the system is the way it is today. I was part of health care administration of r forty years and our system will not evolve into one with competition. Look at health care all over the world and tell me where there is a truly competitive system anywhere. That is because health care does not lend itself to competition. And yes the problem is cost, but more than that, the profit motive is the main driver of costs in this country. It is why our costs are twice as high as any other country. Look at health care insurance plans. Profit is also the reason that our health care insurance system is not about providing health care but about providing as little health care as possible and thus increasing profits.

Stop limiting insurance carriers by state and you'll see prices fall. It has been artificially set up to help insurers because they have politicians under their influence. The answer to that is not to destroy the system but elect people with the courage to do what is right rather than what gets the most lobbying.
 
Not at all. Being against private insurance but not private care where the patient pays directly is to be for private care, just against insurance management of care (because it adds to the cost some 25% or so ).

I realize the argument of "choices", and one will choose which plan serves his or her needs, and why remove a choice? isn't that the American way? Perhaps, but I don't see it that way.

if medicare for all covered everything ( except maybe most teeth and cosmetic ) then the need for this or that plan for varying needs is a moot point, all needs will be met.
(if it isn't, then I would be for changing it so that it is ).

Given the above, I would support dental insurance, and cosmetic insurance ( one might get into an accident and be disfigured, requiring reconstructive surgery --- and-- if the reconstructive surgery is needed for essential quality of life, then I would support medicare paying for it )

This way, given that health care dollars are already being spent, all this system would do is redirect dollars already being spent in a new direction, one that is a more efficient system ( medicare spends 8% on admin, private insurance spends 25% -- but the details of this are being debated, of course. I'm saying in general one would be more efficient than the other ).

Also, I'm for free education, especially for doctors. The reason, damn the cost, this is mission critical stuff, stuff for national security because the health of the nation is an aspect of national security. A sick and uncared for nation is not in America's best interest, morally and strategically.

This would free up millions in disposable income and come right back to the economy, more than offsetting the cost.

Also, student debt is a huge stress, and stress leads to more sickness, and isn't that what we are trying to prevent in the first place?

Can't afford it? The reverse is true, we can't afford not to do it.

Okay, the " I don't want a government run health care" objection: .

I hate to tell you this, but you pretty much already have a government run health care.

The gov is all over health care, private and public. Health care is highly regulated.

But what kind of argument is that, anyway?

You are not complaining about government run police.

You are not complaining about government run defense.

You are not complaining about government fire department?

How is it that the only beef is when it is health care?


It's give and take, but the overriding issue is what is at stake.

What is at stake is that without medicare for all, millions will fall through the cracks and not get covered. The goal is everyone having health care, and that would be a net gain for society, including free school ( not all school, though, this would have to be weighed and valued as to what would be in the nation's interest to be public, and what would be more suitable to the private ).

Remember, before anyone knee jerks about "bankruptcy", I'm only talking about redirecting dollars that are already being spent into a more efficient system. Even if not totally true, I would support a modest increase in spending/taxes for a noble goal ( with the burden of taxes on the higher earners much more than the lower earners ).

For those who are arguing "bankruptcy", bring that argument on. I can rebut it (or at least I think I can)

No, actually you can't. Even the democrats admit that Medicare for all would at a minimum cost around 30 trillion dollars over 10 years. That would absolutely bankrupt the country.
 
No, actually you can't. Even the democrats admit that Medicare for all would at a minimum cost around 30 trillion dollars over 10 years. That would absolutely bankrupt the country.

OK, that is $3T/year and we now spend $3.5T/year - how, exactly, would spending less banktrupt the country?

Health spending totaled $74.6 billion in 1970. By 2000, health expenditures had reached about $1.4 trillion, and in 2017 the amount spent on health had more than doubled to $3.5 trillion. Total health expenditures represent the amount spent on healthcare and health-related activities (such as administration of insurance, health research, and public health), including expenditures from both public and private funds.

How has U.S. spending on healthcare changed over time? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker
 
No, actually you can't. Even the democrats admit that Medicare for all would at a minimum cost around 30 trillion dollars over 10 years. That would absolutely bankrupt the country.

No dem I know of and approve who understands the subject is saying that.

of the 50 or so western developed nations that have some version of UHC, the per capita cost of health care is roughly half of that of the US.

Yes, I understand that those nations are not as generous with their health care dollars as America is, but it certainly indicates it's not going to cost more. Why?

Because....

It's not an add on cost. It's redirecting dollars already being spent into a more efficient system.
 
No dem I know of and approve who understands the subject is saying that.

of the 50 or so western developed nations that have some version of UHC, the per capita cost of health care is roughly half of that of the US.

Yes, I understand that those nations are not as generous with their health care dollars as America is, but it certainly indicates it's not going to cost more. Why?

Because....

It's not an add on cost. It's redirecting dollars already being spent into a more efficient system.

I have never been impressed with the claims of what other developed nations are able to do on healthcare compared to the US. Those claims do not take into account many factors such as how those nations come up with their statistics, their health habits, their lack of the jackpot system of malpractice lawsuits we have here, the fact that we for instance for all practical purposes subsidize Canada's prescription industry, etc. Or the fact that many of those nations can only afford those so-called universal health schemes because they do not have to budget for their own military defense at any level close to ours, as they primarily fall under our protection. I only care what will or will not work here. Medicare for all simply would not work in this nation. Even Schumer and Pelosi understand that.
 
I have never been impressed with the claims of what other developed nations are able to do on healthcare compared to the US. Those claims do not take into account many factors such as how those nations come up with their statistics, their health habits, their lack of the jackpot system of malpractice lawsuits we have here, the fact that we for instance for all practical purposes subsidize Canada's prescription industry, etc. Or the fact that many of those nations can only afford those so-called universal health schemes because they do not have to budget for their own military defense at any level close to ours, as they primarily fall under our protection. I only care what will or will not work here. Medicare for all simply would not work in this nation. Even Schumer and Pelosi understand that.



You'd have a point but for one fact. The average of these 50 western developed nations is that the cost is roughly half of that of the US.


If it were true in some, but not others, i.e., hit and miss, and/or not as pronounced as "half" represents, you'd have a point. Half is a result that shouts, it does not whisper.


If it works there, it could work here, and to understand this, Imagine a river of water flowing. Now partition a portion of the water into a different direction and measure the total flows.

It's still roughly the same. If the partition now results in covering everyone ( replacing ER health care with single payer managed care ) and is more efficient, the total will be the same but probably less and be the better choice, therefore.


If you have a proposal where all of a nation's citizens have access to affordable health care, I'm open to your ideas.


Other aspects which drive up costs can be dealt with, each, one at a time. This is a doable idea. There is no evidence that it is not.
 
Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

I agree with everything that you said. My only concern is that if a new law is written which would dissolve medicare as it exists now could be struck down by some compromised Texas judge. Before this is attempted we need a Supreme Court that is people friendly vs. corporation friendly.
 
Nobody forces people to get car ... insurance.

My State absolutely requires auto-liability insurance. You can’t get a drivers license without showing proof of insurance and you must show it again if you’re pulled over, if you can’t it’s a ticket and hefty fine and they can take your license on the spot .<-period
 
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I agree with everything that you said. My only concern is that if a new law is written which would dissolve medicare as it exists now could be struck down by some compromised Texas judge. Before this is attempted we need a Supreme Court that is people friendly vs. corporation friendly.

We may be beyond help on that. Citizens United handed this country off to the billionaires to pillage.
 
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