Has it really come to this in England?

[Wiggen]

There is a lot to worry about, I agree !! I also know that all the turmoil in the Middle East with the Palestinian issue to begin with, the colonial era that preceded then followed by the Western intervention in Afghanistan, Iraq and other parts of the the Muslim world has led to the radicalization of Islam. I grew up in the Muslim world and followed the changes. A radical Muslim when I was young was some kind of a curiosity, an exotic being and I watched them multiply as the years went by.

coming to your post mbig, let's take the points step by step: my answers in red:

you posted:



45% say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments.
This figure is more than Twice as high as those who say it was Not a conspiracy.
(mbig note: That's just great!)

people from all walks of life believe in the conspiracy theory of 9/11. All of those who took their time to analyse this theory were Westerners. There has been no survey ever made to determine how many Westerners adhere to this theory and if 45% of Muslims do, I'd take it as some kind of a denial that Muslims are capable of this kind of a horrific act. Radical Muslims proudly claim responsibility for it

Tragically, almost 1 in 4 British Muslims believe that last year's 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror.
which means that 75% of Muslims don't justify the attacks. 25% remain a minority (25% is a lot, I agree)

When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only 1 in 4 say it is.

That is a feeling common among minorities in a any country. If you, as an American were born in Egypt or India or Mali, you'd still feel American, wouldn't you ? In 1995 when JM Le Pen reached the second tour of elections in France, journalists from France 2 interviewed members of the Jewish community in Paris and the reaction was "it is a French issue, we are not concerned" of course the people who said that were a minority and today another Jewish minority the LDJ is ready to vote Marine Le Pen after the attack on a Jewish school in Toulouse Un Israélien agressé par la Ligue de Défense Juive - Centre Communautaire Laïc Juif. So are you surprised that a minority of UK Muslims don't feel that Britain is their country ? Again remember that 75% (the large majority) do feel that Britain is their country

30% of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."

again 70% do NOT prefer to live under Sharia law, they are the large majority. Half of the remaining 30% would prefer to MOVE to a country that is under Sharia law. That leaves us with 15 % of shmucks who believe that they should apply Sharia la in Britain

28% hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it. The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. 78% support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed.

72% don't. As for the large majority of 78% who demand punishment for publishing the cartoons, it is true, the large majority of Muslims even the moderates are very touchy about the representation of the Prophet in images to begin with and portraying Him as a terrorist is simply unbearable. On the other hand only a small minority call for violent reprisals

68% support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62% of British Muslims say No, it should not. Also concerning freedom of speech, as the NOP Research survey reports, "hardcore Islamists" constitute 9% of the British Muslim population. A slightly more moderate group is composed of "staunch defenders of Islam." This second group comprises 29% of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with a religious group opposing the insulting of their religion.



Before you begin preparing a rude and violent reply, let me assure you (and you know it) that I do not support any kind of radicalism of any religion, I'm an atheist to begin with.
On the other hand I prefer to observe and analyse the reasons behind this increasing radicalisation and hope for solutions instead of giving up to paranoia which will only lead to violence.

Yr numbers are accurate, so again let's stop referring to them as a 'tiny minority'. 25% of 1,600,000 people is a hell of a lot of radicals.

 

[Wiggen]

Yes, you see nothing wrong with throwing people in jail for criticism of Islam. That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

Well, it is a step up from murdering them through mob violence.

 

[Gardener]

Well, it is a step up from murdering them through mob violence.

It's really all about where people set the bar. Those who wish to defend Islamism define it in such a way that only those actively engaged in killing large numbers of people for Islam are considered objectionable in any way. That way, they can try to claim that Islamists represent this imaginary tiny minority of theirs. Meanwhile, they support absolutely totalitarian ideas like jailing people for criticizing Islam since they have defined these ideas as perfectly reasonable.

Let's face it -- if just about any OTHER group of people were to express similarly totalitarian notions, these same defenders of Islamism would be all over it, and this despite any facts presented to them that such values were less common. If one out of a hundred Christians wanted people jailed for criticizing Christianity, they would be outraged. If one out of a thousand Jews wanted criticism of their religion outlawed, we would be hearing their typical cr@p about Jews being puppetmasters. It is only because these attitudes come from Muslims that they are being defended, and the only reason they are defended is because it is politically correct among this reactive and illiberal portion of the hard left to do so.

 

[Dittohead not!]

It's really all about where people set the bar. Those who wish to defend Islamism define it in such a way that only those actively engaged in killing large numbers of people for Islam are considered objectionable in any way. That way, they can try to claim that Islamists represent this imaginary tiny minority of theirs. Meanwhile, they support absolutely totalitarian ideas like jailing people for criticizing Islam since they have defined these ideas as perfectly reasonable.

Let's face it -- if just about any OTHER group of people were to express similarly totalitarian notions, these same defenders of Islamism would be all over it, and this despite any facts presented to them that such values were less common. If one out of a hundred Christians wanted people jailed for criticizing Christianity, they would be outraged. If one out of a thousand Jews wanted criticism of their religion outlawed, we would be hearing their typical cr@p about Jews being puppetmasters. It is only because these attitudes come from Muslims that they are being defended, and the only reason they are defended is because it is politically correct among this reactive and illiberal portion of the hard left to do so.

What if one in a hundred Christians would jail people for aborting a fetus?

 

[Gardener]

What if one in a hundred Christians would jail people for aborting a fetus?

Then that WOULD be a small minority of Christians.

This, as opposed to the dishonest stance of all those who defend Islamism by trying to characterize Islamist attitudes as being magnitudes less frequent than in reality.

 

[Arcana XV]

25% is not a tiny minority. Please stop perpetuating this cannard.

I was quoting her words in reference to the situation in Luton, which is what the video in the OP is actually about. Unless you have conclusive evidence that the people in that protest represent at least 25% of Luton's Muslims, I suggest you stop making **** up.

 

[Mira]

What if one in a hundred Christians would jail people for aborting a fetus?

Arrest and prosecution does not mean jail, it could mean a fine. The law exists already against insulting anyone for his/her religious affiliation, race or sexual orientation. Do you think the law is wrong ?

edit: what does this have to do with abortion ???

 

[Wiggen]

I was quoting her words in reference to the situation in Luton, which is what the video in the OP is actually about. Unless you have conclusive evidence that the people in that protest represent at least 25% of Luton's Muslims, I suggest you stop making **** up.

This tiny minority defense shows up every time Muslims are criticized. It's not a tiny minority. And I have no reason to wonder whether Luton's muslims are typical of muslims in Britain generally. I would assume they are, unless Luton has suddenly become an enclave of rational and reasonable muslims where the numbers don't apply.

I'm making nothin up. You, on the other hand, appear to be denying a stone cold fact.

 

[Arcana XV]

This tiny minority defense shows up every time Muslims are criticized. It's not a tiny minority. And I have no reason to wonder whether Luton's muslims are typical of muslims in Britain generally. I would assume they are, unless Luton has suddenly become an enclave of rational and reasonable muslims where the numbers don't apply.

I'm making nothin up. You, on the other hand, appear to be denying a stone cold fact.

1. You haven't watched the entire video the clip in the OP was pulled from, therefore you have no idea what I'm talking about.

2. I'm not denying a damn thing. I suggest you read my other posts in this thread as well as re-reading the one you initially quoted a bit more carefully before you address me again.

 

[Wiggen]

I'll get right on that, sir.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Arrest and prosecution does not mean jail, it could mean a fine. The law exists already against insulting anyone for his/her religious affiliation, race or sexual orientation. Do you think the law is wrong ?

edit: what does this have to do with abortion ???

Well, I wouldn't want to see a fine or imprisonment either one for disrespecting Islam, for aborting a fetus, for being gay, or for any other transgression of someone's religious beliefs.

 

[Mira]

Well, I wouldn't want to see a fine or imprisonment either one for disrespecting Islam, for aborting a fetus, for being gay, or for any other transgression of someone's religious beliefs.

We're getting all confused here, let's put it straight.

I wouldn't want to see anyone prosecuted for aborting, being gay or belonging to a race or religion ... that we agree

but I would like to see prosecuted those who insult or aggress someone for his/her religion, race, sexual orientation or choice of abortion.

Hope it's sorted out

 

[Dittohead not!]

We're getting all confused here, let's put it straight.

I wouldn't want to see anyone prosecuted for aborting, being gay or belonging to a race or religion ... that we agree

but I would like to see prosecuted those who insult or aggress someone for his/her religion, race, sexual orientation or choice of abortion.

Hope it's sorted out

yes, I think we're on the same page.

 

[Arcana XV]

We're getting all confused here, let's put it straight.

I wouldn't want to see anyone prosecuted for aborting, being gay or belonging to a race or religion ... that we agree

but I would like to see prosecuted those who insult or aggress someone for his/her religion, race, sexual orientation or choice of abortion.

Hope it's sorted out

Why would you want to prosecute someone for insults? They're just words. I'm not gonna start pressing sexism charges on every asshole who calls me a bitch because they can't handle a strong woman. It's a total waste of everyone's time.

 

[Mira]

Why would you want to prosecute someone for insults? They're just words. I'm not gonna start pressing sexism charges on every asshole who calls me a bitch because they can't handle a strong woman. It's a total waste of everyone's time.

Well to put it this way half jokingly, if someone called me a bitch, I'd just walk away shaking my head as well. But I know some women who would rather twist their balls :shock: I'd prefer those to just be able to call the police instead.

Seriously though, we're not talking about sexism here but rather about racism and discrimination for being gay or belonging to a religion.

 

[Arcana XV]

Well to put it this way half jokingly, if someone called me a bitch, I'd just walk away shaking my head as well. But I know some women who would rather twist their balls :shock: I'd prefer those to just be able to call the police instead.

Seriously though, we're not talking about sexism here but rather about racism and discrimination for being gay or belonging to a religion.

sexist, racist, anti-gay, anti-religion...It's all the same to me. An insult is an insult. Just words. The only time I'm okay with pressing charges for words is if there's slander involved.

 

[Mira]

sexist, racist, anti-gay, anti-religion...It's all the same to me. An insult is an insult. Just words. The only time I'm okay with pressing charges for words is if there's slander involved.

I can relate to that Arcana because I'm the same way but I also know that some people won't hesitate to pull out a knife or a gun for being insulted.

My older sister who lives in California ran into a woman while taking a walk in her neighborhood. The woman stopped my sister and asked "why did you come here ? why don't you go back to your country" ?
My sister replied "because I love you" and that just made the woman's jaw drop :mrgreen:

Aaaaaanyway .....

 

[Arcana XV]

I can relate to that Arcana because I'm the same way but I also know that some people won't hesitate to pull out a knife or a gun for being insulted.

Right, and for this they should be charged, not for whatever words came before the knife or gun was produced.

My older sister who lives in California ran into a woman while taking a walk in her neighborhood. The woman stopped my sister and asked "why did you come here ? why don't you go back to your country" ?
My sister replied "because I love you" and that just made the woman's jaw drop :mrgreen:

Aaaaaanyway .....

:lol::lol::lol:

 

[samsmart]

I found the OP film to be genuine and shocking. To hear an omam or anyone for that matter preach that everyone who is not of their faith will burn in hell is messed up. I know if I returned to my hometown and found this kind of crap going on, I'd be pretty shocked too. America has dozens upon dozens of primarily Muslim communities, and we've never seen a protest like this anywhere.

That's said by preachers in churches all over the U.S. all the time.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Why does the subject of the Burka, Chador or other coverings ALWAYS come up whenever people discuss or debate Muslim views (etc)?

To a large number of Middle Eastern cultures and beliefs (not all are the same) - this is purely an issue of modesty and nothing more. They wont' stop wearing it regardless of what 'liberation' we 'give' them via military interaction or government control (whatever) . . . good heavens.

But yet - that's what people focus in on . . . and it's so ****ing stupid: it's clothes people. . . focus on the bigger, deeper issues or grow the hell up.

 

[Mira]

Honestly? Nothing at this point. I don't believe they can be reasoned with in any effective way. Brick walls are pretty much useless to talk to. I'd keep a close eye on them, though. The reason there aren't bigger problems in places like Luton is because of their small numbers.

I have to say, I'm a little shocked at the attitude seen in this documentary. I'm more used to French Muslims, who are much more discreet and don't tend to protest in this manner. Even those who belong to the most conservative sects would never dream of walking down the street shouting for France to go to Hell. I don't know if that says more about French Muslims or French society in general, but it's definitely worth noting the striking difference.

I agree with you, there's nothing that one can do except to monitor them closely. It is very shocking and totally unacceptable to say the very least.

We've never seen such demonstrations in France at least not with such blunt and violent slogans, but it doesn't mean that France doesn't have problems with radical Muslims. This saddens me a great deal because a small bunch of radicals are part of the reason why the extreme right wing is gaining power and their behaviour is going to have a negative effect on the future of the majority of Muslims here who want to lead normal lives. Not mentioning of course the negative effect that the rise of the extreme right wing has on a country as a whole.

 

[samsmart]

Why does the subject of the Burka, Chador or other coverings ALWAYS come up whenever people discuss or debate Muslim views (etc)?

To a large number of Middle Eastern cultures and beliefs (not all are the same) - this is purely an issue of modesty and nothing more. They wont' stop wearing it regardless of what 'liberation' we 'give' them via military interaction or government control (whatever) . . . good heavens.

But yet - that's what people focus in on . . . and it's so ****ing stupid: it's clothes people. . . focus on the bigger, deeper issues or grow the hell up.

To be honest with you I'm not that concerned about the Muslims protesting in that video.

People have a right to say what pisses them off. It doesn't have to make sense and it doesn't have to be rational. They still have that right. So leave them alone and let them.

And I'd rather people be able to speak out and vent and maybe even talk about getting some required reform done than do more violent actions that simmer or spend the tax money to oppress them in a police state.

 

[Mira]

To be honest with you I'm not that concerned about the Muslims protesting in that video.

People have a right to say what pisses them off. It doesn't have to make sense and it doesn't have to be rational. They still have that right. So leave them alone and let them.

And I'd rather people be able to speak out and vent and maybe even talk about getting some required reform done than do more violent actions that simmer or spend the tax money to oppress them in a police state.

And how do you think that this sort of behaviour effects public opinion ? I don't want the extreme right wing to rule the country that I'm a citizen of.

 

[Connery]

And how do you think that this sort of behaviour effects public opinion ? I don't want the extreme right wing to rule the country that I'm a citizen of.

If done in a lawful and orderly fashion it empowers freedom; freedom of thought and freedom to formulate opinions without fear of reprisal. That way public opinion can be weighed a with a view that it is a more the honest way the public believes.

 

[samsmart]

And how do you think that this sort of behaviour effects public opinion ? I don't want the extreme right wing to rule the country that I'm a citizen of.

So who, exactly, should influence public opinion?