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Has higher education turned into...

radcen

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You can't win if you don't play.

The chances of winning the lottery are astronomical. Most people lose. No secret.

Granted, higher education isn't that bad, but considering that our society is turning into a service-based economy while higher degrees are being pushed as the best way to compete and have a good life. The enticements dangled in front of us aren't all that dissimilar. As a result, we keep seeing higher and higher percentages of graduates unable to work in their fields of choice, or downright unemployed. The lottery player is out the money they spent, and the unemployed graduate (usually) has huge student loans left to pay. Hence the question... Has higher education turned into something akin to a lottery when it comes to getting a good paying career.
 
Unless you are going into a STEM-H job, or a profession like accounting or law, you are probably rolling the dice. Even if you do, you should always have a plan for self-employment.
 
Not a lottery, a multi-level scam.

Many kids want to avoid work and responsibility.

many professors want to avoid work and the messy productive sectors.

Colleges milk the parents and the public treasury to accommodate both.
 
Not a lottery, a multi-level scam.

On average, those with a bachelor's degree earn vastly more $$ over their lifetime compared to their peers without, almost double. It pays for any student loans many times over. And that's for college degrees in general. If you actually select your major wisely, those earnings increase substantially.

Not only that, but in spite of rocketing tuition, the earning gap between those with college degrees and those without is actually increasing.

Do you need a college degree to be successful? Of course not. Does getting a college degree guarantee that you can coast your way to success and wealth? Of course not. But if you approach it wisely it's likely the best investment you can make toward securing your financial future.

Who's getting scammed again? :roll:

College Degree Nearly Doubles Annual Earnings

How Higher Education Affects Lifetime Salary - US News and World Report
 
Do these numbers include those with degrees who either are employed in something else (usually something with lower pay) or are unemployed completely? Or, are they only counting those who got jobs in their degree field? Neither story clarifies that point.
 

It accounts for both.

But, remember, it's a statistical claim. The numbers show that ON AVERAGE individuals with college degrees earn more than their peers. It's not saying that if you have a college degree but you work at McDonald's flipping burgers, you're magically going to make $50k a year. What the statistics say is that, even during this economic downturn and despite all the horror stories we hear about college grads not being able to find work, that in reality those with college degrees ON AVERAGE are still landing jobs that pay much more.
 
Science, technology, engineering, math. Dont' know what the H is.
 
But that's kind of my point. It's now "on average", whereas a couple decades ago I think a degree was better than "on average", it was a much safer bet. You had to be either a screw-up or very unlucky for it not to happen.
 
Approach it wisely? How many wise 17-18 year olds do you know?
 
College used to be pretty hard. They used to be pretty selective with who gets in. They used to only offer up fields of study that the current economy actually valued.
 
Approach it wisely? How many wise 17-18 year olds do you know?
Parents can help, but even public schools have become so big-business that the chances of getting anything more than a marketing spiel is difficult.

When being recruited, I mean.
 
Parents can help, but even public schools have become so big-business that the chances of getting anything more than a marketing spiel is difficult.

When being recruited, I mean.
Schools literally pay people to ask kids what they like to do, what their interests are, and then to pursue that. Well, when I was 17, my interests were naked girls, drawing in class, video games (this was the height of the square soft era), and reading. So I ended up going to an art school, and getting a lib art degree. Useless. My parents went along with it because they had the old school mindset that any degree is better than no degree.

I think our entire method is wrong. How much sense does it make to essentially force kids not even two decades into their life to choose what they are going to do for the next 3 decades or more?

Stupid.
 

I think for the most part you are right at least about earning power of degrees, though I would caveat by saying that nowadays one has to choose their career very carefully and maximize for opportunity and flexibility.
That said, I say this, most universities are way overpriced for the service they provide. Further becoming indebted for a degree requires running a cost benefit analysis, a ROI analysis, and future growth projection for the chosen profession to determine if in fact beneficial deal to the potential student. Problem is most students DONT pick their universities based on ROI or even make much in the way of comparison to other universities. Carrying a major debt load before you even start is NOT a financially sound decision. Especially if the profession chosen may not have as much earning potential as expected.

I also disagree with the notion that one goes to school for a career per say. Most schools since before I went, till now, emphasis is on working for OTHERS, when really the emphasis should be focused on working for oneself. People really should be looking to get into business for themselves so as to maximize the opportunities this country offers which by the way is quite substantial. It pays to work for yourself. Schools should be teaching that concept.
 
In their generation, it was.

I agree with you, btw. To compound the stupidity, many kids are pressured to make that decision when they're freshmen or sophomores in high school. Way too soon for all but a rare few, IMO.
 
Approach it wisely? How many wise 17-18 year olds do you know?

I knew plenty of 17-18 year olds who had their priorities straight. Study hard, then party hard. Picked a tough major with good job prospects and are now reaping the benefits. Most of my friends fit that description, actually.
 
I knew plenty of 17-18 year olds who had their priorities straight. Study hard, then party hard. Picked a tough major with good job prospects and are now reaping the benefits. Most of my friends fit that description, actually.

Might be generational. Most kids I know can't see past next week.
 

Educational and career success is based much more on skill and effort than luck. Poor planning and effort are the main reasons for unemployed grads.
 
Science, technology, engineering, math. Dont' know what the H is.

Covered three of those as an undergrad to have a safety net. It took 6 years, but it paid off well.
 
Educational and career success is based much more on skill and effort than luck. Poor planning and effort are the main reasons for unemployed grads.

Educational success is caused by skill and work ethic, sure. Career success? I could debate that, lol.
 
College used to be pretty hard. They used to be pretty selective with who gets in. They used to only offer up fields of study that the current economy actually valued.

When?

That's not my understanding of what college used to be. During the early 1800's it was mostly study of the "classics", stuff like Latin, philosophy, Roman and Greek history, etc, and they were only selected as to the ability to pay. There has always been colleges who would accept anyone who could pay.

Today Ivy League schools turn down many applicants with perfect SAT/ACT scores and perfect GPAs. Even my son's state college turns town about 50% of the students who apply.
 



People with degrees in art are indeed among the least likely to get a good paying job. Especially from those private for profit art schools that used to advertise in the "Parade" magazine that used to come in the Sunday paper. However, I assume that you do have a job doing something. And your parents were right for going along with it, because having a degree is definitely better than not having a degree. There are lots of jobs where the employer wants someone with a degree, but doesn't care what the degree is in.

I suspect that part of the issue with art schools is that art schools should really only be for the extremely gifted in art, yet many of them accept just about everyone. I once had a graphic designer who graduated from the Charleston College of Art, he was a great designer and artist, another one of my bests artist graduated from the same college that I went to, they didn't offer an art degree, but she did get a BA in "interdisiplinary studies", which basically meant that she got to design her own degree. In both cases, the degree had little value to me, it was the natural art skills that both of those people had which made them valuable to me. So was their college useless? I think not, they were both very intellegent people that I enjoyed being around.

My son is a music major in college, he will be getting a Bachelors in Music (which is a little higher degree than a BA in music), and will be certified to teach k-12 when he graduates. One thing about music students is that for BM degrees they have to already have proven to be a musician at a fairly high level before being accepted. My son's school only accepted about one out of five students who auditioned, famous conservatories may only accept one out of a hundred applicants or more. The teachers at my son's school have been very straight up with him and have told him that there is no point in being a performance major as there are no jobs that require a degree in music performance. Either you are a good enough performer to make it performing, or your not, and if you are good enough, it doesn't even matter if you were a high school grad, let alone a college grad with a BM in music. Thats the reason he went the music education rought (which is teaching him to be a certified music teacher) instead of the performance degree.

I think our entire method is wrong. How much sense does it make to essentially force kids not even two decades into their life to choose what they are going to do for the next 3 decades or more?

Stupid.

Actually, I think as long as students are going to an accredited school, it doesn't really matter what they major in as an undergrad. Students with music degrees are actually more likely to be accepted to medical school than students with traditional pre-med majors (biology, chemistry, etc), and they are also highly sought after in law school. And to get a MBA and lots of other masters programs, you don't even have to have an undergrad degree in the same subject.

You are right, the typical 18 year old has no clue what he wants to do, or what he is good at. A bachelors degree should be about exploring a wide variety of subjects, and career fields, and figuring out what is most appropriate for each individual. Each class taken should include a week of study or so about the practical application of the subject, and it's job prospects and outlook.

What I wish was that we offered a "Bachelors in Liberal Arts" degree that was very widely diversified, and included a lot of required courses in "thinking" classes like inductive logic, deductive logic, game theory, etc. I would also include a lot of different science classes, at most colleges, students are required to take just two sciences, and often they both have to be in the same field. There are at least a dozen different sciences fields that every student should be exposed to before he can consider himself reasonably and liberally educated. I think for the science part of the curriculum, I would require one "survey of..." type of class in chemistry, geology, biology, physiology, astronomy, phyics and maybe even a few more. In the "human sciences" I would make most of those courses 4 credit hour courses (instead of 3), and make them a little broader, so maybe one course in psychology, sociology, economics (half micro half macro), political science, etc. I would also require a geography class, a class in ancient world history (entire world, not just western civ), a class in world history up to the 1800's or so, and a modern world history class. I would tack on some classes that helped students explore different careers, like teaching, engineering, general management and administration, etc.

Once the student has completed such an undergrad degree, and was a little older and more mature and focused, he could go on to grad school for a specific career objective.
 
Ivy leagues are exclusive, yes. But if its higher education you want, and you're willing and able to pay, there is a school out there that WILL accept you, unless you simply don't have a GED, and heck, in some cases, you don't even need that.
 
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