Has higher education turned into...

[Dubliner]

Ivy leagues are exclusive, yes. But if its higher education you want, and you're willing and able to pay, there is a school out there that WILL accept you, unless you simply don't have a GED, and heck, in some cases, you don't even need that.

I was a bit confused when you said that colleges used to be most selective to get into. The more prestigious colleges are getting harder to get into, and it was extremely easy to get into a state college back in the 70s/80s.

Just having any college degree was valued back then, thus almost all of them were valued by the economy. Now, times have changed and there are too many non STEM-H degrees out there (econ/business can also be solid).

There was always a school willing to accept you, and yes there still is. Nothing much has changed except the bachelors degree has been devalued for liberal arts majors.

 

[Fisher]

college degrees are not winning lottery tickets. Too many people assume that just because they have a degree something magical is supposed to happen like a secret door opens in their basement and a room full of gold and jewels is theirs for the taking. Too many people are corporate cubicle oriented IMO. It is the knowledge that you gain that matters more than the piece of paper. If you cannot convert that knowledge into something that has utility for others, then don't bother. I know a lot of people who have aviation degrees. When they graduated, the degree was worthless--it is the flight time that matters, so they had to take crappy flight instructor/banner towing type jobs building up another 1500-2000 hours of flight time to get an airline job because the hours of experience are what matters. A degreed person with no real world work experience is worth less than an experienced person with no degree in a lot of employment situations.

 

[Gipper]

On average, those with a bachelor's degree earn vastly more $$ over their lifetime compared to their peers without, almost double. It pays for any student loans many times over. And that's for college degrees in general. If you actually select your major wisely, those earnings increase substantially.

Not only that, but in spite of rocketing tuition, the earning gap between those with college degrees and those without is actually increasing.

Do you need a college degree to be successful? Of course not. Does getting a college degree guarantee that you can coast your way to success and wealth? Of course not. But if you approach it wisely it's likely the best investment you can make toward securing your financial future.

Who's getting scammed again? :roll:

College Degree Nearly Doubles Annual Earnings

How Higher Education Affects Lifetime Salary - US News and World Report

The old model doesn't work anymore. A college degree had two values, back in the day - utility, and scarcity. I think we can all safely say that the scarcity value of an undergraduate degree is completely lost. Nowadays, the utility value is also being greatly diminished.

I've told many people this, and I stand by it: Don't go to college out of high school. Go to work full-time somewhere. With the exception of about a half dozen majors, most of which were mentioned, you're losing instant money and not really screwing yourself out of much opportunity cost anymore. This is because of the flood of graduates who cannot find jobs.

Two people interview for a job. They are identical in every possible way, with one exception: one has a high school diploma and 4 years of experience, and the other has a 4 year degree with no experience in the field. The kid with a diploma and work experience will get hired every time out of the gate.

Therefore, if I went to speak to high schools across America, I'd tell them to go work at McDonalds at 16, get a couple years under your belt, go into lower management outside of high school, perhaps go part-time toward an AA at a local community college, gain some managerial/supervisory experience with enhanced responsibility, and then look for some jobs that are more career-oriented. Hell, many of them may pay for you to go get that 4 year degree.

Don't be the broke college kid that turns into a broke college graduate.

 

[imagep]

Not a lottery, a multi-level scam.

Many kids want to avoid work and responsibility.

many professors want to avoid work and the messy productive sectors.

Colleges milk the parents and the public treasury to accommodate both.

And thus colleges are satisfying the demand created by the free market. Nothing wrong with that, thats the way that the free market capitalistic system is SUPPOSED to work.

 

[imagep]

But that's kind of my point. It's now "on average", whereas a couple decades ago I think a degree was better than "on average", it was a much safer bet. You had to be either a screw-up or very unlucky for it not to happen.

The growing income disparity between college grads and non-college grads proves your point to be incorrect. Or maybe it just proves that we have an income disparity problem in this country. Who knows?

 

[imagep]

College used to be pretty hard. They used to be pretty selective with who gets in. They used to only offer up fields of study that the current economy actually valued.

Based upon my parents experiences 50 years ago in college, my experience 30 years ago as a college student, and my son's experiences today as a college student, I don't see any difference between college today and college back then. There have never been any guarantees, and their have always been useless majors (50 years ago my mom majored in home economics and my dad majored in Latin, and they didn't even offer computer programming degrees).

 

[imagep]

Schools literally pay people to ask kids what they like to do, what their interests are, and then to pursue that. Well, when I was 17, my interests were naked girls, drawing in class, video games (this was the height of the square soft era), and reading. So I ended up going to an art school, and getting a lib art degree. Useless. My parents went along with it because they had the old school mindset that any degree is better than no degree.

I think our entire method is wrong. How much sense does it make to essentially force kids not even two decades into their life to choose what they are going to do for the next 3 decades or more?

Stupid.

Would you have been any better off if you majored in something that is more practical, but you hated, and you ended up flunking out or quiting?

And why didn't you major in "naked girls"?

 

[imagep]

...most universities are way overpriced for the service they provide...

Well I think that Mcdonalds is way overpriced for the products that they offer, and so is the gas station. But apparently the free market says that we are wrong. After all, who are we to determine the value of stuff, isn't the free market much better at making these determinations? Something is worth at least as much as a buyer is willing to pay for it.

 

[imagep]

I was a bit confused when you said that colleges used to be most selective to get into. The more prestigious colleges are getting harder to get into, and it was extremely easy to get into a state college back in the 70s/80s.

Just having any college degree was valued back then, thus almost all of them were valued by the economy. Now, times have changed and there are too many non STEM-H degrees out there (econ/business can also be solid).

There was always a school willing to accept you, and yes there still is. Nothing much has changed except the bachelors degree has been devalued for liberal arts majors.

Even many state colleges can be "hard" to get into. My son's lowly state university had nearly 30,000 applicants for 4,500 spots this year. they only accepted 9,000 (assuming that about half will actually enroll). Thats worse than a one in three chance.

 

[PirateMk1]

Well I think that Mcdonalds is way overpriced for the products that they offer, and so is the gas station. But apparently the free market says that we are wrong. After all, who are we to determine the value of stuff, isn't the free market much better at making these determinations? Something is worth at least as much as a buyer is willing to pay for it.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. While I may think that universities are overpriced doesn't mean for someone else that it is the case and may in fact be a bargain. It all depends on ones perspective.

I personally think that universities are overpriced for what they provide.

 

[imagep]

Value is in the eye of the beholder. While I may think that universities are overpriced doesn't mean for someone else that it is the case and may in fact be a bargain. It all depends on ones perspective.

I personally think that universities are overpriced for what they provide.

Do you think that CEO's are overpaid?

 

[Oftencold]

And thus colleges are satisfying the demand created by the free market. Nothing wrong with that, thats the way that the free market capitalistic system is SUPPOSED to work.

You're almost right, and would be entirely correct if we fail to take into account that the State funds so much of this activity.

What I'd like to see from colleges, is for them to provide educations for a set number of years for each student who meets admission criteria with no tuition fees whatsoever. just a contract ceding a set percentage of the graduate's income to the college for 25 years. Do that, and our colleges will become the envy of the world.

 

[Dubliner]

Even many state colleges can be "hard" to get into. My son's lowly state university had nearly 30,000 applicants for 4,500 spots this year. they only accepted 9,000 (assuming that about half will actually enroll). Thats worse than a one in three chance.

Yes, definitely. State university's can offer a great education, thus they will typically be hard to get into. I know the UC system is around 20-40% acceptance rate depending on the university.

I referenced state colleges in the 70s/80s being extremely easy to get into. The post I was responding to stated that colleges used to be harder to get accepted to. I know the state colleges my parents went to were significantly easier to get in then in comparison to now.

 

[PirateMk1]

Do you think that CEO's are overpaid?

Depends on the company. Costcos CEO is paid very reasonably IMO whereas Chases is grossly overpaid IMO.

 

[windowdressing]

Not a lottery, a multi-level scam.

Many kids want to avoid work and responsibility.

many professors want to avoid work and the messy productive sectors.

Colleges milk the parents and the public treasury to accommodate both.

this post is exactly why it's important for people to go to college ... while there's no guarantee that they would never write stuff like this, the chances are much less ...

 

[Gipper]

Well I think that Mcdonalds is way overpriced for the products that they offer, and so is the gas station. But apparently the free market says that we are wrong. After all, who are we to determine the value of stuff, isn't the free market much better at making these determinations? Something is worth at least as much as a buyer is willing to pay for it.

When we get subsidized loans for Big Macs, that becomes a legitimate comparison.

People take loans for college without full impact of what they can expect. When we just shell out 100K for someone to major in sociology as an excuse for nearby access to frat parties, ignoring the fact that they'll be just another fry cook with a huge debt, we need to rethink things.

 

[FederalRepublic]

You can't win if you don't play.

The chances of winning the lottery are astronomical. Most people lose. No secret.

Granted, higher education isn't that bad, but considering that our society is turning into a service-based economy while higher degrees are being pushed as the best way to compete and have a good life. The enticements dangled in front of us aren't all that dissimilar. As a result, we keep seeing higher and higher percentages of graduates unable to work in their fields of choice, or downright unemployed. The lottery player is out the money they spent, and the unemployed graduate (usually) has huge student loans left to pay. Hence the question... Has higher education turned into something akin to a lottery when it comes to getting a good paying career.

It does make a difference what you study. Do some research, find out what pays the bills (and what doesn't) and get after it.

 

[imagep]

Depends on the company. Costcos CEO is paid very reasonably IMO whereas Chases is grossly overpaid IMO.

But doesn't the free market system perfectly value everything every time?

 

[imagep]

When we get subsidized loans for Big Macs, that becomes a legitimate comparison.

People take loans for college without full impact of what they can expect. When we just shell out 100K for someone to major in sociology as an excuse for nearby access to frat parties, ignoring the fact that they'll be just another fry cook with a huge debt, we need to rethink things.

44

Federal student loans have debt caps far below $100k, I think it's something like $28k for a bachelors degree.

Anyhow, I would assume that people spend money all the time without thinking through the "full impact of what they can expect". People like me, who spend more than we should be spending on a house or a car (yup, I'm guilty). Yet, somehow all this is already factored into our economy and into the cost of goods and services.

 

[PirateMk1]

But doesn't the free market system perfectly value everything every time?

For the individual making the purchase or sale at the time. Chase shareholders are willing to pay a premium for the perceived value they think they get from their CEO. I wouldn't pay it but they obviously will.

 

[Oftencold]

this post is exactly why it's important for people to go to college ... while there's no guarantee that they would never write stuff like this, the chances are much less ...

Oh, yes, all those folks applying their Women's Studies and Communications degrees at your local drive through are probably incapable of writing a moderate level of proficiency.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

You can't win if you don't play.

The chances of winning the lottery are astronomical. Most people lose. No secret.

Granted, higher education isn't that bad, but considering that our society is turning into a service-based economy while higher degrees are being pushed as the best way to compete and have a good life. The enticements dangled in front of us aren't all that dissimilar. As a result, we keep seeing higher and higher percentages of graduates unable to work in their fields of choice, or downright unemployed. The lottery player is out the money they spent, and the unemployed graduate (usually) has huge student loans left to pay. Hence the question... Has higher education turned into something akin to a lottery when it comes to getting a good paying career.

Try getting a good job without a good education.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I listened to a kid on Greta last night pinning that his generation is the most "advanced" academically.
So pretty much job offers should be flooding in. And he is none to happy to be working at a bar part time during his job search.
His job search is for a job at a "think tank" or something in international affairs.
Please tell me what a 22 year old snot nose is going to have experience in that is applicable to think tank work?
I forgot what his degree is in, but it was something so narrow that the field is probably non existant.
College is great, but learn something that you can make a living in.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Try getting a good job without a good education.

Define good job.
I use non of my paid for learning in my job.
Sure, It helps understand business. It helps me communicate on all levels. But it does nothing for what I do.

 

[Torrent]

Try getting a good job without a good education.

Define Good education. Is it just the knowlage? You can get that without the collage altogether. Or is it just the paper that tells others that a collage has deterimed that you know something?