• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Has Executive Compensation Contributed to the Financial Crisis?

Real Korimyr #9

Not Myself, I'm a Replica of Me
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
20,252
Reaction score
16,326
Location
Douglas, WY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The astounding thing isn't the editorial piece itself. The astounding thing is where it was published: Has executive compensation contributed to the financial crisis? | A blog by Asli Demirguc-Kunt

In the aftermath of the financial crisis there has been no shortage of finger-pointing in the attempt to identify its underlying causes. The list of potential culprits is long and ranges from bank deregulation to the "alchemy" of credit ratings and structured finance. This debate focuses on one factor that has allegedly contributed to the crisis: greedy bankers and the executive compensation packages that tempted them to, quite literally, bet the bank.
 
If large companies pay more, and if the average size of companies has grown sharply over time, average compensation would also grow, even if the value of the increasingly generous granting of stock options and equity shares were fully understood by stock markets and boards of directors.

The allocation of better managers to larger firms, and competition for these managers among companies of different sizes, means that companies in, say, 2006 would have to pay more for their CEOS than even the same sized companies did in 1980, although much less than six times as much. The reasoning is that the 2006 companies of a given size are competing against relatively larger companies than comparable size companies did in 1980.

Since average firm size is much lower elsewhere, their pay would be more like that of pay in the US in 1980 or 1990 than the pay of CEOS in today's much larger American firms. As the market for top executives becomes increasingly global, the pay of CEOS in other countries would rise, and that of CEOS in America might fall. For example, to attract Carlos Ghosn, a Brazilian working in France, to turn around Nissan, a seriously ailing company, Nissan had to pay him not at the low Japanese CEO levels, but at the much higher levels found in other countries. I believe that the explanation based on the allocation of CEO talent largely is behind the explosion in compensation of American CEOS during the past several decades.

Yet at the same time, some American CEOS are obviously grossly overpaid since they have mismanaged their companies, and still receive exorbitant compensations. But mismanagement is not new and probably has not become so much more important over time. So I am suggesting that the rapid growth of compensation of American CEOS, and its premium over compensation of CEOS in other countries, is not mainly due to a growth in the degree of excess payment of executives in the United States.
 
there has certainly been a shift from worker wage growth to executive wage growth. considering that we live in a nation whose GDP is 70 percent consumer spending, it's hard to imagine that the shift has not had some impact.
 
Executive compansation is not to blame for our problems. That we made the companies/banks etc that gave incompetant boobs all this money whole again is the problem.
 
If large companies pay more, and if the average size of companies has grown sharply over time, average compensation would also grow, even if the value of the increasingly generous granting of stock options and equity shares were fully understood by stock markets and boards of directors.

The allocation of better managers to larger firms, and competition for these managers among companies of different sizes, means that companies in, say, 2006 would have to pay more for their CEOS than even the same sized companies did in 1980, although much less than six times as much. The reasoning is that the 2006 companies of a given size are competing against relatively larger companies than comparable size companies did in 1980.

Since average firm size is much lower elsewhere, their pay would be more like that of pay in the US in 1980 or 1990 than the pay of CEOS in today's much larger American firms. As the market for top executives becomes increasingly global, the pay of CEOS in other countries would rise, and that of CEOS in America might fall. For example, to attract Carlos Ghosn, a Brazilian working in France, to turn around Nissan, a seriously ailing company, Nissan had to pay him not at the low Japanese CEO levels, but at the much higher levels found in other countries. I believe that the explanation based on the allocation of CEO talent largely is behind the explosion in compensation of American CEOS during the past several decades.

Yet at the same time, some American CEOS are obviously grossly overpaid since they have mismanaged their companies, and still receive exorbitant compensations. But mismanagement is not new and probably has not become so much more important over time. So I am suggesting that the rapid growth of compensation of American CEOS, and its premium over compensation of CEOS in other countries, is not mainly due to a growth in the degree of excess payment of executives in the United States.

I don't personally see why firm size would matter. Typically, most managers only manage between 4 and 10 people. Maybe 20 tops. Doesn't matter what size the company is, the job skills, and the number of people that would directly report to the CEO are exactly the same. I understand that you might think that there is more responsibility with a larger firm, I don't think there is, anyone can screw up, and anyone can do good, the size of the company has little to do with that. Even if there was more responsibility at a larger firm, would more pay actually make the CEO work any harder? I believe that once you reach a good size salary, more pay doesn't motivate one to work any harder. Heck, if you are paying someone a million dollars to do a job, wouldn't you expect him to do the best he can? And if he is not doing the best he can for that million smackers, then is paying him any more going to improve his performance? Personally, if I was on the board of directors, and I felt like my CEO was slacking, I'd fire him and hire my brother in law or my old roommate from college.

Claiming that the larger the firm the more the pay should be is sort of like claiming that a janitor who has a large floor to mop should be paid more (per hour) than a janitor who has a small floor to mop. The responsibility is the same, and it doesn't matter if the floor is big or small, it takes the same skill level to mop either one.

The CEO of a small mom and pop pretty much does all the same job functions that the CEO of a mega corp does, only he doesn't have a staff of highly paid top notch specialists to guide him.
 
Last edited:
I don't personally see why firm size would matter. Typically, most managers only manage between 4 and 10 people. Maybe 20 tops. Doesn't matter what size the company is, the job skills, and the number of people that would directly report to the CEO are exactly the same. I understand that you might think that there is more responsibility with a larger firm, I don't think there is, anyone can screw up, and anyone can do good, the size of the company has little to do with that. Even if there was more responsibility at a larger firm, would more pay actually make the CEO work any harder? I believe that once you reach a good size salary, more pay doesn't motivate one to work any harder. Heck, if you are paying someone a million dollars to do a job, wouldn't you expect him to do the best he can? And if he is not doing the best he can for that million smackers, then is paying him any more going to improve his performance? Personally, if I was on the board of directors, and I felt like my CEO was slacking, I'd fire him and hire my brother in law or my old roommate from college.

Claiming that the larger the firm the more the pay should be is sort of like claiming that a janitor who has a large floor to mop should be paid more (per hour) than a janitor who has a small floor to mop. The responsibility is the same, and it doesn't matter if the floor is big or small, it takes the same skill level to mop either one.

The CEO of a small mom and pop pretty much does all the same job functions that the CEO of a mega corp does, only he doesn't have a staff of highly paid top notch specialists to guide him.

And if he fails, said failure doesn't bankrupt NEARLY as many people.

I think you are a tad off, though. Size of the firm DOES matter, but not because the job is any harder. It matters, because of the level of responsibility. As a manager of a mom and pop, you might be in charge of the same number of employees as the mega corp, but the number of people you are RESPONSIBLE for is DRASTICALLY larger in the mega corp.
 
And if he fails, said failure doesn't bankrupt NEARLY as many people.

I think you are a tad off, though. Size of the firm DOES matter, but not because the job is any harder. It matters, because of the level of responsibility. As a manager of a mom and pop, you might be in charge of the same number of employees as the mega corp, but the number of people you are RESPONSIBLE for is DRASTICALLY larger in the mega corp.

More responsibility =/= harder job? I'm a big fan of your definition of "difficulty.'
 
More responsibility =/= harder job? I'm a big fan of your definition of "difficulty.'

I don't understand your analysis of, "difficulty"... Just because you produce a "difficult" product, does that mean you can sell it?

Who are you selling to? Will you mock your finished good/service to a consumer? Who will manage the rest of your business? What if you manage your business, who will sell your goods or services? Will you only hire a person to promote your goods and services?
 
Last edited:
Executive compansation is not to blame for our problems. That we made the companies/banks etc that gave incompetant boobs all this money whole again is the problem.

I dont recall the government forcing companies to provide massive bonus's to corporate executives

Nor do I recall the government forcing the rating agencies to rate MBS's with a while of monkey droppings at AAA grade investments

Nor do I recall the government having any power to force Countrywide or similar Subprime lenders to make idiotic loans which Countrywide then sold as AAA rated investments
 
I dont recall the government forcing companies to provide massive bonus's to corporate executives

Nor do I recall the government forcing the rating agencies to rate MBS's with a while of monkey droppings at AAA grade investments

Nor do I recall the government having any power to force Countrywide or similar Subprime lenders to make idiotic loans which Countrywide then sold as AAA rated investments

Who controls credit inflation? I'm guessing the FRB, and not the US Treasury; I might be wrong...
 
I dont recall the government forcing companies to provide massive bonus's to corporate executives

Nor do I recall the government forcing the rating agencies to rate MBS's with a while of monkey droppings at AAA grade investments

Nor do I recall the government having any power to force Countrywide or similar Subprime lenders to make idiotic loans which Countrywide then sold as AAA rated investments

I'm not positive how all that relates to the topic or what I said.
 
I think a lot of people misinterpreted the thread here. The structure of compensation to higher risk loans is what is being debated, not actual compensation.
 
I'm not positive how all that relates to the topic or what I said.

Were you not stating that the government forced these poor companies to lend money to people that shod not have received such loans.
 
Who controls credit inflation? I'm guessing the FRB, and not the US Treasury; I might be wrong...

Many different organizations can control credit inflation. The FRB being the most influential in the US.
 
I think a lot of people misinterpreted the thread here. The structure of compensation to higher risk loans is what is being debated, not actual compensation.
Exactly. This has been slowly building for the past 20 years all across corporate America, not just in the banks. Companies have paid less attention to the long-term outlook and have tended to focus more on short-term gains. Part of this is pressure from the Board and stockholders who want their money NOW! instead of later. Part of it seems to be market pressure itself, that somehow the landscape has changed - and maybe it has. When companies like Kodak can be put on the ropes inside a decade over one or two inventions one has to wonder what is a "good bet" for the long haul today.

Maybe the lack of a concrete future is what has everybody on edge, chasing the short-term cash. Maybe even corporate execs are starting to believe their own advertising that you MUST "buy this product today!" Has the weighed and calculated sales tactics of Madison Ave really changed America in a way unforeseen 40 (50?) years ago when it started? I don't know what caused the shift but I do know it's more than just bankers and it's affects go far beyond Wall Street.
 
I don't understand your analysis of, "difficulty"... Just because you produce a "difficult" product, does that mean you can sell it?

Who are you selling to? Will you mock your finished good/service to a consumer? Who will manage the rest of your business? What if you manage your business, who will sell your goods or services? Will you only hire a person to promote your goods and services?

What are you even talking about? I was making a point in that he's confusing responsibility and accountability. A CEO of a large company is accountable to and for more people...but more responsibility means he has to deal with things like international supply chains, PR, shareholder confidence...things that he is directly responsible for. Hence, a large company would pay their CEO more.

The product is a separate issue entirely. Please understand the post before you go in guns a'blazin.
 
The astounding thing isn't the editorial piece itself. The astounding thing is where it was published: Has executive compensation contributed to the financial crisis? | A blog by Asli Demirguc-Kunt

I think compensation definately has contributed. I think the most telling stories of how Executive compensation has become completely deviod of any rationality is that of Stanley O'Neil. He was the former CEO of Merrill Lynch. Merrill Lynch survived the Great Depression and has been a firm for almost 100 years. Stanley O'Neil led while Merrill Lynch doubled on CDO's, overleveraged and made a killing. The stock price reached 92ish dollars a share as a high. He ended up leaving with over 100 million in compensation right before the collapse. They figured out there was a major problem and pushed him out.

Anywho, he got his golden parachute and made millions on building a house of cards.

John Thain was hired to replace him. He recieved a 15 million dollar signing bonus, and would recieve at least 50 million a year and up to 120 million depending on how the stock did. In the one year at Merrill he ended up making 83 million as a salary (this of course is during the collapse) rennovated his CEO office at the price of over a million, asked for a 10 million dollar bonuse for "saving" Merrill (by selling it to BoA) all while presiding over major losses and selling the company.

It's a different world for an executive. That's a major problem.
 
Last edited:
Were you not stating that the government forced these poor companies to lend money to people that shod not have received such loans.

Well, they did, but no. I said that the massive compensation was not the problem. The problem was the government covering for the mistakes of the boobs who made the massive compensation.
 
I think compensation definately has contributed. I think the most telling stories of how Executive compensation has become completely deviod of any rationality is that of Stanley O'Neil. He was the former CEO of Merrill Lynch. Merrill Lynch survived the Great Depression and has been a firm for almost 100 years. Stanley O'Neil led while Merrill Lynch doubled on CDO's, overleveraged and made a killing. The stock price reached 92ish dollars a share as a high. He ended up leaving with over 100 million in compensation right before the collapse. They figured out there was a major problem and pushed him out.

Anywho, he got his golden parachute and made millions on building a house of cards.

John Thain was hired to replace him. He recieved a 15 million dollar signing bonus, and would recieve at least 50 million a year and up to 120 million depending on how the stock did. In the one year at Merrill he ended up making 83 million as a salary (this of course is during the collapse) rennovated his CEO office at the price of over a million, asked for a 10 million dollar bonuse for "saving" Merrill (by selling it to BoA) all while presiding over major losses and selling the company.

It's a different world for an executive. That's a major problem.

O'Neil should be in prison for running afoul of Sarbanes/Oxley. That he is not is another way the government bailed out the bad decisions. This applies to many other CEO's also.
 
More responsibility =/= harder job? I'm a big fan of your definition of "difficulty.'

More responsibility does not mean it's a harder job, it just means a bigger ball of **** rolling towards you or others when you **** up.
 
What are you even talking about? I was making a point in that he's confusing responsibility and accountability. A CEO of a large company is accountable to and for more people...but more responsibility means he has to deal with things like international supply chains, PR, shareholder confidence...things that he is directly responsible for. Hence, a large company would pay their CEO more.

The product is a separate issue entirely. Please understand the post before you go in guns a'blazin.

Ooops... I apologize.
 
Well, they did, but no. I said that the massive compensation was not the problem. The problem was the government covering for the mistakes of the boobs who made the massive compensation.

Really Countrywide was forced to lend money to people it should not have, by who and how
 
Really Countrywide was forced to lend money to people it should not have, by who and how

It's been covered many times. I'm not in the mood tonight but perhaps later if I get into one. It's also not the topic at hand.
 
Back
Top Bottom