Greeks protest against Golden Dawn attack on Communists

[PeteEU]

You are the one who is clearly completely ignorant and doesn't know any history.

Hello, there is one hell of a difference between history of communism and the actual ideology of communism as founded by Marx and Engells. What communism was in the USSR was a bastardized version of the ideology.

You clearly haven't read uch Communist ideology.

I have long ago.

And the historical facts are there for everybody to see.

What. that Lenin took the ideology and twisted it to create a powerbase for which to rule from? No ****. Mao and others did the same, but that does not mean that they practised true communism... far from it.

As for the Christian Church. You are completely wrong there and demonstrate your complete lack of any factual historical knowledge.

LOL heard of the Crusades? Religious wars and purges in Europe? The wiping out of native Americans across North and South America? The mass killings in Africa and slavery in general.. all promoted and accepted by the Church? Seriously? Seems you have a very narrow view of factual history ...

 

[Artevelde]

Hello, there is one hell of a difference between history of communism and the actual ideology of communism as founded by Marx and Engells. What communism was in the USSR was a bastardized version of the ideology.

So Communism isn't Communism. You're trying the same trick as the guy who claimed Hitler and co. weren't real Nazi's. If you start playing that game then all terms are just empty and meaningless.

 

[Artevelde]

LOL heard of the Crusades? Religious wars and purges in Europe? The wiping out of native Americans across North and South America? The mass killings in Africa and slavery in general.. all promoted and accepted by the Church? Seriously? Seems you have a very narrow view of factual history ...

Try reading some real history. You are making yourself completely ridiculous.

 

[PeteEU]

True. Given time the Nazi's would undoubtedly have run up a body count that could rival that of the Communists.

It also depends on how you count things.. do you attribute all deaths in WW2 to the Nazies, then Communism never killed that many. 60 million died in WW2 due to the Nazies, where as Communism never killed that many.. unless you start including people who died of starvation and disease in the numbers, but then you would have to do that too in the Nazi numbers...

So the Nazies killed say 65 million over 10 years in Europe (world wide estimates of deaths is 85 million.. includes Asian deaths), where as Communism if you include starvation and such... at most is about 100 million according to the most rabid anti-communist (so most likely lower in reality) over 80 years. If you only include war deaths.. then the Nazies had the Communist beaten easily.

 

[PeteEU]

Try reading some real history. You are making yourself completely ridiculous.

Ah let me guess.. a devout Christian that believes the church has never done anything evil..

Sorry to burst your bubble.. but that is real history. Starvation, mass killings and torture, death by disease and war... all related to the Christian faith.. have through out history caused a massive amount of pain, death and suffering.

 

[Artevelde]

It also depends on how you count things.. do you attribute all deaths in WW2 to the Nazies, then Communism never killed that many. 60 million died in WW2 due to the Nazies, where as Communism never killed that many.. unless you start including people who died of starvation and disease in the numbers, but then you would have to do that too in the Nazi numbers...

So the Nazies killed say 65 million over 10 years in Europe (world wide estimates of deaths is 85 million.. includes Asian deaths), where as Communism if you include starvation and such... at most is about 100 million according to the most rabid anti-communist (so most likely lower in reality) over 80 years. If you only include war deaths.. then the Nazies had the Communist beaten easily.

You really know absolutely nothing about history do you?

Of course the Nazi's are not responsible for all deaths in WWII. They are not responsible for the millions of dead in the Pacific. They are not responsible for the millions killed by the Soviets (Poles, Rusians, other mnorities, Baltic people, Finns, ...). The Nazi's are responsible for the murder of somewhere between 10 and 12 million people in WWI that were not killed a a result of normal warfare (mostly 6 million Jews and also numerous Poles, Russians, etc.)

The Communist regime in China alone is responsible for the death of at least 60 million. The Communist regime in the Soviet Union killed approximately 20-25 million under Stalin alone (nt counting the millions murdered under Lenin and later). I'm leaving out many other Communist regimes and their millions of dead here.

 

[PeteEU]

So Communism isn't Communism.

You do realize there are several branches of Communism right? So yes, Communism is not just one big bad ideology.

You're trying the same trick as the guy who claimed Hitler and co. weren't real Nazi's. If you start playing that game then all terms are just empty and meaningless.

You mean like post #43 where Coin said..

And Nazi ideology isn't the one you saw on Germany.

?

In no way do I support such and idea.

But the fact is that communism has many branches and is not a unified ideology per say. The modern communism of Marx and Engell has nothing to do with the version Lenin used, or the one Kim in North Korea uses. The only similarities are the absolute basics in communism ideology.. hell even that is a stretch, since one of the corner stones of Communism is a classless society, and there was certainly classes in the Soviet Union and in North Korea.

 

[Artevelde]

Ah let me guess.. a devout Christian that believes the church has never done anything evil..

Sorry to burst your bubble.. but that is real history. Starvation, mass killings and torture, death by disease and war... all related to the Christian faith.. have through out history caused a massive amount of pain, death and suffering.

Too much ignorance and blind denial of facts for me to deal with. You are too ignorant to know, for example, that 99% of the native inhabitants in the Americas who died, died of diseases. Or that the Church was at the forefront of protecting the natives there. You prefer to believe in fairy tales instead of learning some real historical facts.

 

[Artevelde]

But the fact is that communism has many branches and is not a unified ideology per say. The modern communism of Marx and Engell has nothing to do with the version Lenin used, or the one Kim in North Korea uses. The only similarities are the absolute basics in communism ideology.. hell even that is a stretch, since one of the corner stones of Communism is a classless society, and there was certainly classes in the Soviet Union and in North Korea.

They are all united in their dictatorial, murderous and genocidal mentality and practice.

 

[PeteEU]

You really know absolutely nothing about history do you?

Okay.. lets see.. what excuses you find now.

Of course the Nazi's are not responsible for all deaths in WWII. They are not responsible for the millions of dead in the Pacific.

Yes that was about 20 million, not included in the 60 million number I stated.

They are not responsible for the millions killed by the Soviets (Poles, Rusians, other mnorities, Baltic people, Finns, ...).

Okay, lets take 5 million out then to play it save.. that leaves 55 million plus the deaths in Nazi Germany before the war.. say 5 million.. so 60 million.

The Nazi's are responsible for the murder of somewhere between 10 and 12 million people in WWI that were not killed a a result of normal warfare (mostly 6 million Jews and also numerous Poles, Russians, etc.)

The Nazi's were not around in WWI.. yes that is a typo I am hoping. Also why are we only counting deaths that are not a result of normal warfare? Did the Nazies not start the war? Are they not responsible for the deaths as result of said starting of a massive war of aggression?

The Communist regime in China alone is responsible for the death of at least 60 million.

Ahh deaths.. so they shot 60 million people? No.. those people mostly died due to starvation, something that has always been very common in China even before the communist came too. And the 60 million is a high number, that few actually believe is true.

The Communist regime in the Soviet Union killed approximately 20-25 million under Stalin alone (nt counting the millions murdered under Lenin and later).

Again based on starvation...Sure he killed a few million, but most was due to starvation. Also Lenin was before Stalin and the deaths there mostly again due to a civil war and the following starvation. As for after Stalin... not that many..

I'm leaving out many other Communist regimes and their millions of dead here.

Yea Cuba.. lots of deaths there right.. not.

Sure North Korea, but that has so little to do with communism.. it is a cult of personality.

How about Romania then.. or Bulgaria.. or Poland, or East Germany.. want to count all deaths there due to illness as well?

Listen I am not saying that communism as it was practised in many parts of the world after the 1917 Russian revolution was not bad, I am saying that communism had 80 years to rack up a death toll and the Nazi ideology had 10 years to rack of a massive death toll as well... and that the Christian Church had 2000 years to rack up massive amount of death to totally dwarf everyone, especially if you take into account "relative to the population at the time" factor.

I am also saying that most of the death by the Nazies was due to war, where as the communists was due to miss management that lead to starvation. That is a difference....

 

[PeteEU]

Too much ignorance and blind denial of facts for me to deal with. You are too ignorant to know, for example, that 99% of the native inhabitants in the Americas who died, died of diseases. Or that the Church was at the forefront of protecting the natives there. You prefer to believe in fairy tales instead of learning some real historical facts.

They died of diseases that the Spanish/British/French/Portuguese brought to the Americas, on missions that were blessed and promoted (in some cases financed) by the Church or in honour of the Church. And those that survived were force converted or enslaved... because they did not convert.. that is if they were allowed to live.

When Columbus went to the Americans he did it for the glory of Spain and the Church.. the Church was an integral part of life back then.. stop denying this. Royalty did nothing without consulting and getting permission from the Church.. and when the Church said to jump, then they jumped. This lasted far into the 1700/1800s.. that you even attempt to deny this fact is mind boggling.

 

[PeteEU]

They are all united in their dictatorial, murderous and genocidal mentality and practice.

Which Franco, Pinochet, Hitler, Mussolini, Mullahs of Tehran and so on also are.. does that mean that conservative ideology is also bad?

 

[Artevelde]

Okay.. lets see.. what excuses you find now.



Yes that was about 20 million, not included in the 60 million number I stated.



Okay, lets take 5 million out then to play it save.. that leaves 55 million plus the deaths in Nazi Germany before the war.. say 5 million.. so 60 million.



The Nazi's were not around in WWI.. yes that is a typo I am hoping. Also why are we only counting deaths that are not a result of normal warfare? Did the Nazies not start the war? Are they not responsible for the deaths as result of said starting of a massive war of aggression?



Ahh deaths.. so they shot 60 million people? No.. those people mostly died due to starvation, something that has always been very common in China even before the communist came too. And the 60 million is a high number, that few actually believe is true.



Again based on starvation...Sure he killed a few million, but most was due to starvation. Also Lenin was before Stalin and the deaths there mostly again due to a civil war and the following starvation. As for after Stalin... not that many..



Yea Cuba.. lots of deaths there right.. not.

Sure North Korea, but that has so little to do with communism.. it is a cult of personality.

How about Romania then.. or Bulgaria.. or Poland, or East Germany.. want to count all deaths there due to illness as well?

Listen I am not saying that communism as it was practised in many parts of the world after the 1917 Russian revolution was not bad, I am saying that communism had 80 years to rack up a death toll and the Nazi ideology had 10 years to rack of a massive death toll as well... and that the Christian Church had 2000 years to rack up massive amount of death to totally dwarf everyone, especially if you take into account "relative to the population at the time" factor.

I am also saying that most of the death by the Nazies was due to war, where as the communists was due to miss management that lead to starvation. That is a difference....

So much denial of facts and so many stupid assertions. Where do you get 80 million people died in WWII? That's a ridiculous exaggeration. As for the rest, I guess that you conveniently forgot that for the first two years of WWII the Soviets were the allies of the Nazi's and invaded Poland, the Baltic countries, Romania and Finland.

As murders of regimes I count only those that they killed outside of normal warfare.

As for the rest of your ridiculous assertions, they only demonstrate your complete ignorance.

 

[Artevelde]

They died of diseases that the Spanish/British/French/Portuguese brought to the Americas, on missions that were blessed and promoted (in some cases financed) by the Church or in honour of the Church. And those that survived were force converted or enslaved... because they did not convert.. that is if they were allowed to live.

When Columbus went to the Americans he did it for the glory of Spain and the Church.. the Church was an integral part of life back then.. stop denying this. Royalty did nothing without consulting and getting permission from the Church.. and when the Church said to jump, then they jumped. This lasted far into the 1700/1800s.. that you even attempt to deny this fact is mind boggling.

Since you don't know any history it's pretty useless to discuss these things with you. You simply don't know or deny the facts.

 

[Coin]

As did the Nazies.. children fingered their parents and got them killed. Difference is that Nazi Germany lasted a decade.. communism lasted 70 years.



A what? ... seriously..

Children killed their parents?
What are you talking about?

 

[Coin]

You mean like post #43 where Coin said..

Communism worked just as the ideology was. It was the worse and it happen like that.

Nazi ideology was successful in Germany. You can see the signs of the success even nowdays.
It was screwed up with that Jewish issue outside german borders.

If communism was successful after WW2, it was because world wanted to erase every sign and name of Nazi.
And communism was used as a tool to achieve that.

But on each communist country, whole people lived as ancient slaves in terms of living conditions.

 

[Artevelde]

Children killed their parents?
What are you talking about?

No, children were encouraged to denounce their parents. And some did so. The Nazi's even made movies about this.

 

[Artevelde]

Communism worked just as the ideology was. It was the worse and it happen like that.

Nazi ideology was successful in Germany. You can see the signs of the success even nowdays.
It was screwed up with that Jewish issue outside german borders.

If communism was successful after WW2, it was because world wanted to erase every sign and name of Nazi.
And communism was used as a tool to achieve that.

But on each communist country, whole people lived as ancient slaves in terms of living conditions.

Nazism was an unmitigated disaster, for Germany and for Europe.