Greece Votes No In Referendum

[Chagos]

Grexit is too expensive and, at the end of the day, it's always about the money.

The politicians and lawyers will make it happen....of course that is just my optimism on European cooperative ability talking, only time will tell.

Oh, it's about money all right. That's the whole point. And if anyone thinks that Grexit is too expensive compared to anything else (Greek defaulting with an IWF payment and wishing to default on all that's still left of ESFS loans), they might want to calculate Grexit through and through. What with Greece demanding more and then loan re-structurizing all in one breath. What do you reckon the Tsipras lot means by "loan re-structurizing"?

We're talking of Marxists here. Dyed in the wool. Ever heard of the concept of using capitalism's greed (that's what they think of the rest anyway) to finance the rope by which they'll hang it.

The EU are calculating the Grexit scenario (as one of several), believe you me.

 

[Peter Grimm]

Oh, it's about money all right. That's the whole point. And if anyone thinks that Grexit is too expensive compared to anything else (Greek defaulting with an IWF payment and wishing to default on all that's still left of ESFS loans), they might want to calculate Grexit through and through. What with Greece demanding more and then loan re-structurizing all in one breath. What do you reckon the Tsipras lot means by "loan re-structurizing"?

We're talking of Marxists here. Dyed in the wool. Ever heard of the concept of using capitalism's greed (that's what they think of the rest anyway) to finance the rope by which they'll hang it.

The EU are calculating the Grexit scenario (as one of several), believe you me.

They would be fools to not at least prepare for the possibility of a Grexit, considering it is a possible outcome.

It's in everyone's interests to avoid such a scenario, however, and if egos can be set aside then I am certain that some accord can be reached.

Both sides ultimately want the same outcome, so it's just to work the details. The world is watching, so here's hoping they can find a concensus with some long term viability

 

[cpwill]

But by your own admission you haven't any resources with which to offer help. A consequence of your own nations thrall to corporate America in no short measure ,imo.

Not really. It's a consequence of my age (early 30s). 30 or so years from now, I'd have the cash to pull it off if I wanted.

Nonetheless , I'm skeptical that your wish to " help "them , had you even been in a position to do so , has its root in altruism.

It doesn't - it has it's roots in how much I loved being in Greece, and how awesome it would be to take my family there to vacation on a regular basis.

That's the beauty of free trade: it takes our natural self-interest and turns it towards the task of providing goods, services, and resources to others.

The policies enforced by the troika have been proven to be disasterous and that's what they voted to reject , that makes sense enough to me , why doesn't it make sense to you ?

The policies of the last several decades of the Greek Government are what have proven to be disastrous. If the Greeks were suffering so much from the conditions required by those bailing them out then they are free to not take the money. But they need the money - because their policies have been disastrous - and so they've agreed to the conditions because that's the better option for them. Now they want to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[cpwill]

so, since greece has rejected the loan covenants required to receive more EU money, what does the nation/government now do to attain economic normalcy?

I believe the current plan is:

 

[donsutherland1]

Hilariously, an even higher portion of Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone. Truly an entire country is deciding that Reality is Optional. Socialism will do that to you, I suppose. :shrug:

I suspect that if the Greek Prime Minister had been truthful that a "No" vote would jeopardize Greece's ability to remain in the Euro Zone, perhaps the outcome would have been different. It's a terrible tragedy that the Greek people have suffered greatly on account of the choices of a series of bad governments, including the present one.

 

[PoS]

Greece given days to agree bailout deal or face banking collapse and euro exit | World news | The Guardian

The stark ultimatum emerged from a special eurozone summit in Brussels on Tuesday where the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, was pressed to explain to the other leaders how he wanted to proceed following his victory in a referendum on Sunday when his country voted no to eurozone austerity measures as the price of staying in the euro.

The Greek leadership exasperated EU leaders by failing to present new bailout proposals on Tuesday. It is to present a formal application on Wednesday for a new rescue package from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), the eurozone’s permanent bailout fund. If Berlin, Paris, Brussels and other key creditor capitals can agree the terms and timings with Athens, Greece would be offered a stay of execution in the euro. Sunday’s summit would then be of the 19 eurozone leaders.

If not, the summit of all 28 leaders, including David Cameron and heads of government of other non-euro countries, would instead convene to deal with the consequences of a Greece cut loose from the eurozone financial system.

Tsipras is being given 48 hours to come up with a proposal or Greece will get thrown out of the Eurozone. Its about time, these crazy leftists have no intention of ever paying those loans back so throw the bums out and let's see what happens when they become financial pariahs.

 

[Anglo-scot]

You are right. I am annoyed on a personal level, because I have lost quite a bit of money on my European investments and I have a personal interest in seeing them get this straightened out one way or the other.

Officially, I don't think it's right for the U.S. administration to blast the Eurozone, as I have done. I don't believe they have, though....in fact I think they've been uncharacteristically quiet on the issue (when are American admins ever quiet about anything?)

That's the proper stance, mine is the hot-headed dual citizen who has lost a lot of money thanks to this mess stance.

By the way, Britain is looking pretty smart right now for staying out of the Eurozone although, ironically, the Germans profit from the chaos as the weak Euro benefits their exports

Yes German national interest has been well-served in the Eurozone and ours by being out.

I'm firmly of the view that Britain should firmly follow its national interests in the EU for as long as we are in it. The EU is a trough, and we put in about twice what we get out. We're not a single demos like the USA so pretences at solidarity across Europe are pointless.

 

[joG]

Yes German national interest has been well-served in the Eurozone and ours by being out.

I'm firmly of the view that Britain should firmly follow its national interests in the EU for as long as we are in it. The EU is a trough, and we put in about twice what we get out. We're not a single demos like the USA so pretences at solidarity across Europe are pointless.

Actually it depends on the Germans you refer to, whether or not they profited. When Germany decided to break the Stability Pact first it was the Sick Man of Europe following entry into Euroland at a much too expensive currency rate. Millions of jobs were lost in the following 7 years of stagnation. Sure. If you had the cash it was worth buying an estate in Santanyi or an island in Greece. But the country hurt badly. Now they will have to write off the debts to Greece, while they wait for competitiveness again to decline and the cycle to repeat itself in a new guise.

There is nothing

 

[Chagos]

Actually it depends on the Germans you refer to, whether or not they profited. When Germany decided to break the Stability Pact first it was the Sick Man of Europe following entry into Euroland at a much too expensive currency rate. Millions of jobs were lost in the following 7 years of stagnation. Sure. If you had the cash it was worth buying an estate in Santanyi or an island in Greece. But the country hurt badly. Now they will have to write off the debts to Greece, while they wait for competitiveness again to decline and the cycle to repeat itself in a new guise.

There is nothing

..........and it's worth considering the immense costs of unification.

What also gets forgotten is that Germany imposed heavy austerity measures on its citizens. Lowering the pension age, effective cuts of pensions by freezing for several years, loosening of hire and fire policies in jobs, heavy cuts in dole and unemployment benefits, same in health care plus hiking the premiums etc.

If membership in the Eurozone is so heavily stressed as the reason for its industrial (export) success, one need wonder why France didn't profit equally, it isn't exactly an agricultural backwoods.

Yet when direly needed austerity was imposed there (the public sector overblown not unlike Greece), the whole country took to the streets in protest and the envisaged measures have not been totally installed to this day.

Needless to say, neither state was anywhere near as badly off as Greece has become. With economies that generate revenue after all, albeit less than desired, nobody was remotely near to starving.

But this constant crap of "Germany ought to give something back, seeing how it earned well off the Greeks" is not only ignorant, it's blatantly stupid. In the list of Germany's trading partners Greece plays a negligible role and always has. Itt's just a dishonest detraction from a single and far more pertinent fact:

Treaties are to be observed and Greece has broken them all.

 

[Anglo-scot]

..........and it's worth considering the immense costs of unification.

What also gets forgotten is that Germany imposed heavy austerity measures on its citizens. Lowering the pension age, effective cuts of pensions by freezing for several years, loosening of hire and fire policies in jobs, heavy cuts in dole and unemployment benefits, same in health care plus hiking the premiums etc.

If membership in the Eurozone is so heavily stressed as the reason for its industrial (export) success, one need wonder why France didn't profit equally, it isn't exactly an agricultural backwoods.

Yet when direly needed austerity was imposed there (the public sector overblown not unlike Greece), the whole country took to the streets in protest and the envisaged measures have not been totally installed to this day.

Needless to say, neither state was anywhere near as badly off as Greece has become. With economies that generate revenue after all, albeit less than desired, nobody was remotely near to starving.

But this constant crap of "Germany ought to give something back, seeing how it earned well off the Greeks" is not only ignorant, it's blatantly stupid. In the list of Germany's trading partners Greece plays a negligible role and always has. Itt's just a dishonest detraction from a single and far more pertinent fact:

Treaties are to be observed and Greece has broken them all.

What your analysis proves is that Germany should be shipping out of the Eurozone or forming a smaller one with like-minded countries. Germany has no good reason to be desperate to maintain the Eurozone.

 

[Chagos]

What your analysis proves is that Germany should be shipping out of the Eurozone or forming a smaller one with like-minded countries. Germany has no good reason to be desperate to maintain the Eurozone.

From a commercial pov it has no good reason to keep Greece. That doesn't apply to the rest. More than half of its exports go within the EU. Or at least used to, last time I looked and that wasn't that long ago.

In THAT, the zone has indeed benefited it. But everyone else as well who hasn't fallen prey to entitlement illusion.

So if the zone goes wobbly (at least) due to a possible Greece leaving (could be anyone else)...............

 

[Andalublue]

What also gets forgotten is that Germany imposed heavy austerity measures on its citizens. Lowering the pension age, effective cuts of pensions by freezing for several years, loosening of hire and fire policies in jobs, heavy cuts in dole and unemployment benefits, same in health care plus hiking the premiums etc.

If that was the level of austerity being forced on the Greeks then I'm sure they'd vote 'yes' in a flash. They are raising the pension age; they have NO social security or unemployment benefit already (so where can they make more cuts there?); pensions haven't been frozen, they've been cut by over a third; they've cut health spending. They are already suffering under austerity measures that German's haven't seen since the 1940s. It must be quite offensive to hear Germans suggesting that they've suffered austerity too.

 

[Chagos]

If that was the level of austerity being forced on the Greeks then I'm sure they'd vote 'yes' in a flash. They are raising the pension age; they have NO social security or unemployment benefit already (so where can they make more cuts there?); pensions haven't been frozen, they've been cut by over a third; they've cut health spending. They are already suffering under austerity measures that German's haven't seen since the 1940s. It must be quite offensive to hear Germans suggesting that they've suffered austerity too.

If you'd had the decency to quote, if not my post entirely, at least that part in which I address this aspect, you wouldn't become suspect to being dishonest.

Cheap move.

 

[Andalublue]

If you'd had the decency to quote, if not my post entirely, at least that part in which I address this aspect, you wouldn't become suspect to being dishonest.

Cheap move.

Don't be silly. Your entire post is right there, not 3 posts earlier. I didn't take anything out of context. Your response seems like a deflection. Why not address the point that the scale of German and Greek austerity measures are really not comparable? Rather than making ad hominem attacks.

 

[Chagos]

Don't be silly. Your entire post is right there, not 3 posts earlier. I didn't take anything out of context. Your response seems like a deflection. Why not address the point that the scale of German and Greek austerity measures are really not comparable? Rather than making ad hominem attacks.

THIS is my ENTIRE post #134, pertinent part now bolded by me

..........and it's worth considering the immense costs of unification.

What also gets forgotten is that Germany imposed heavy austerity measures on its citizens. Lowering the pension age, effective cuts of pensions by freezing for several years, loosening of hire and fire policies in jobs, heavy cuts in dole and unemployment benefits, same in health care plus hiking the premiums etc.

If membership in the Eurozone is so heavily stressed as the reason for its industrial (export) success, one need wonder why France didn't profit equally, it isn't exactly an agricultural backwoods.

Yet when direly needed austerity was imposed there (the public sector overblown not unlike Greece), the whole country took to the streets in protest and the envisaged measures have not been totally installed to this day.

Needless to say, neither state was anywhere near as badly off as Greece has become. With economies that generate revenue after all, albeit less than desired, nobody was remotely near to starving.

But this constant crap of "Germany ought to give something back, seeing how it earned well off the Greeks" is not only ignorant, it's blatantly stupid. In the list of Germany's trading partners Greece plays a negligible role and always has. Itt's just a dishonest detraction from a single and far more pertinent fact:

Treaties are to be observed and Greece has broken them all.

and this is your reponse (# 137), quoting only the 1st paragraph of my post

.

What also gets forgotten is that Germany imposed heavy austerity measures on its citizens. Lowering the pension age, effective cuts of pensions by freezing for several years, loosening of hire and fire policies in jobs, heavy cuts in dole and unemployment benefits, same in health care plus hiking the premiums etc.

If that was the level of austerity being forced on the Greeks then I'm sure they'd vote 'yes' in a flash. They are raising the pension age; they have NO social security or unemployment benefit already (so where can they make more cuts there?); pensions haven't been frozen, they've been cut by over a third; they've cut health spending. They are already suffering under austerity measures that German's haven't seen since the 1940s. It must be quite offensive to hear Germans suggesting that they've suffered austerity too.

nuff said also wrt ability to count.

38 degC (gasp) is no excuse,if I can do it, you can :2razz:

 

[Andalublue]

nuff said also wrt ability to count.

Oh dear! The heat seems to be affecting your temper and your keyboard. wrt?

38 degC (gasp) is no excuse,if I can do it, you can :2razz:

40C here, just staying out of it with the fans on full blast. Am window shopping online for a cheap A/C unit.

 

[PeteEU]

Oh dear! The heat seems to be affecting your temper and your keyboard. wrt?

40C here, just staying out of it with the fans on full blast. Am window shopping online for a cheap A/C unit.

Was 43C here today, but is slowly falling.. 36 atm.

You close to that big fire over by Granada?

Yes it is off topic!

IMF, EU, Greece, Osborne and that fat chick on the beach today all suck.. there a bit topical.

 

[Andalublue]

Was 43C here today, but is slowly falling.. 36 atm.

You close to that big fire over by Granada?

Woah! I hadn't heard, so I guess not. I'll just go check Ideal.es.

Edit: I just checked. It's about 40km from here, still raging and if I crane my neck out of the window I can see a pall of smoke off in the distance. I assume that's it. Bad news! But there is an awful lot of bone dry matorral and grass lying around. We are all getting a bit antsy because this area feels like a tinder-box waiting to ignite.

 

[PeteEU]

Woah! I hadn't heard, so I guess not. I'll just go check Ideal.es.

Look for "Local Fire & Weather Watch (Granada, La Alpujarra and Costa Tropical)" on Facebook (if you have that).. these groups are damn handy and very fast in alerting people about fires. The Bomberos here in my area are actively involved in the group, which means reaction times are extremely fast. They also have a twitter feed, so I suspect there is one over by you as well.

But the fire looks big.. very big. Near Los Gualchos where ever that is!

 

[Andalublue]

Look for "Local Fire & Weather Watch (Granada, La Alpujarra and Costa Tropical)" on Facebook (if you have that).. these groups are damn handy and very fast in alerting people about fires. The Bomberos here in my area are actively involved in the group, which means reaction times are extremely fast. They also have a twitter feed, so I suspect there is one over by you as well.

But the fire looks big.. very big. Near Los Gualchos where ever that is!

Gualchos/Lújar - just this side of Motril. Bad news! We had a bush fire here in 2009, got to within 100m of my house - one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. I truly thought I was about to lose my entire (at the time uninsured) home. This one in Lújar looks to be of similar proportions. I've been nervous during hot spells ever since.

El fuego continúa avanzando y los vecinos de Lújar no saben cuándo volverán a sus casas

I'm now insured up to the woo-wah BTW.

 

[RGacky3]

:lol: Capitalism runs on credit, which is why this socialist party is desperate for free money.

Capitalism runs on capital. One method of shifting it around to where it will produce the most return for the least risk is debt, and it is one that I agree, our current structure encourages far too much of.

But if socialism and programs where you stay in state-supported school until you are 30 and then retire on a government pension when you are 55 are so very productive and beneficial, Greeks should yearn to break free and enjoy their wealth, perhaps eventually loaning the poorer, more fiscally conservative countries like Germany some aid in the future, shouldn't they?

What socialism? Greece has been liberalizing it's economy since the 1990s? and even more so since 2008, significantly ...

yet the countries doing most well in europe are the more socialistic ones.

I don't understand the Logic here, country moves more toward a liberal economy, it crashes, it does tons of austerity liberalizing the economy more, it crashes even more ... yet the problem is not enough economic liberalization?

As for the state School till you're 30 and retiring when you're 55, you're talking out of Your ass here.

The problem with Greece is precisely socialism - when you individualize benefits while socializing costs, you create incentive structures for everyone to beggar their neighbors, which results in everyone being poorer.

What you're talking about here isn't socialism AT ALL.

Right now there are greeks going to work With no pay check, their are greeks who are homeless who just lost their jobs because the Companies they work for can't get credit.

The problem isn't socialism, for the last 25 years and more intensely the last 6 years Greece has been dismantling whatever social-democracy existed for an austerity/neo-liberal state.

I don't hate leftists. I even like you, despite the fact that you are an America-hating, Jesus-denying, Communist.

I appreciate that, but I am by no means Jesus-Denying, I am first and formost, before anything and everything, a Christian.

:shrug: at this point there's not much that can be done. Greeks don't have kids and they don't pay taxes - right now, every 100 grandparents in Greece are trying to support themselves off of 42 Grandkids. There isn't a public program that can make that work well. Leave the Euro, devalue the currency, accept the fact that you've already spent yourself stupid and now you are going to be poorer and in pain for some time because of it. Like all drugs, debt-fueled spending has a pretty rough crash. But pain will be reduced net if you are willing to accept it rather than try to drag it out.

So why are you angry at Syriza?

If you don't think there is anything better that they could do, what is the critique?

Should they leave WITHOUT trying to get a better deal?

:lol: actual reforms being "continue to do what we were doing before"?

If the Greeks want other people's money, then they have to meet the conditions for that money. The Greeks are free to do all the "actual reforms" they please. They simply aren't free to demand that others pay for it.

No, what they were doing before is austerity market liberalization, and financialization, that isn't what Syriza is trying to do.

The greeks dont' WANT other people's Money, they already borrowed it, years ago, now if those People want that Money back then Greece has to be able to fix it's economy.

I don't think you understand the actual situation here.

The EU is demanding Austerity for bailout, now either Syriza can Accept that or not ... should they?

 

[RGacky3]

The problem with Greece is not the last five years, but the last 55 years. This problem (like ours, like Japans, like much of the rest of the west, who are only a few years behind them) is a long time building.

Ok ... but I'm talking about what should be done here and now.

That's right. If the Greeks don't want the austerity, then they are free to not take the loan.

So you're solution is ... allow the economy to crash, no crediters get their Money back and Greece becomes a 3rd world country? ....

Is that what Syriza should do?

Precisely. They aren't willing to change their behavior, they just want the money. They're the international equivalent of your drunk brother in law asking for more money, but who gets angry and affronted when you suggest rehab, a steady job, and living on a budget. His program is "my sisters' husband keeps giving me money until - magically - I don't need it".

This is the Greek economic plan:

View attachment 67186904

Oh for ****s sake come off it.

Let the situation right.

The EU offers bailout for Austerity, bailout for troika Control ... they've done that, they HAVE changed their behavior ... InFact they've given up Control of their fiscal policy to the troika .... and Guess what ... IT IS NOT WORKING.

Syriza is saying ... allow Greece to get a job first .... i.e. actually build an economy.

The EU is saying no, you don't get to have a job, InFact you have to quit the Source of Income you have now.

Tell me what Syriza should do? IN THE REAL WORLD.

That's fantastic. I was under quite the opposite impression. I expect then that we shall hear shortly about them paying their debtors in full and on time, requesting that all current lines of credit be turned off, and stating that they shall need no more loans to keep afloat.

If the US turned off all it's current lines of credit it would be a Third world country.

If the US paid off all it's debts in full it would be a Third world country.

If Wallmart, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Exxon Mobile, all paid off their debtors in full and turned off all their lines of credit they would ALL be bankrupt.

I don't think you know how capitalism Works.

But in the real world is that what you think Greece should do? Would that be the best thing for Greece?

So they are asking for a bailout - they are asking that their loans be turned into gifts.

No ... Why don't you actually look up what mr. Varufakis' actual proposals were.

:shrug: If they want Greece to be made quickly into an economic success story? Go back in time half a century, convince Greeks to have more kids, tell them socialism is bad, mkay, and put an actual system of law enforcement in place. Absent that, if I was in charge? Get out of the Euro, declare bankruptcy, devalue, and tell the Greek people that the gravy train is over.

No ... don't shrug, if you'r gonna **** all over the first party who is actually trying to make Things better for greece rather than just impliment the austerity for bailout programs and hand over the keys to the troika, then you better have a better idea.

I'ts easy to criticize a party when you have nothing better to offer rather than just "be a Third world country."

 

[RGacky3]

Greece faces last chance to stay in euro as cash runs out

Point?

Do you realize what the EU's propasal is? (it's bailout + Austerity)

Do you have a better solution?

 

[RGacky3]

The problem is that Greece had too big of a budget defecit to begin with, lied to Europe about it, and instead of cutting spending after they joined the Euro... they host the Olympics, build stadiums, hire more government workers. Then the crash of 2008 happened, and Greece was totally unprepared for it.

After that, Greece started borrowing. Lenders imposed austerity measures which were too harsh and stifled growth. After that, it's been loan after loan.

Yeah, Greece lied about it (actually Goldman Sachs lied about it, but both of them are complicit).

But Greece was no more Public sector orientated than Germany, France, Sweden or Norway.

The problem is they didn't pay for it, they didn't have an economy yet, and they cut taxes and allowed the Rich to not pay taxes, also they handed over their Finances to Goldman Sachs who squandered it all really fast.

But that's not the point, the point is What should they do now .... Syriza didn't get the country in this mess, Yanis Varufakis was against joining the Eurozone, against the market liberalizations, but it happened, so now what?

It's easy to **** on Syriza for inhereting a problem, but what should they do now?

 

[Chagos]

Oh dear! The heat seems to be affecting your temper and your keyboard. wrt?

That doesn't even cover steering wheels. Was down on the coast last night (had to wait that long) and where many drive like bats out of hell all of the time anyway, usually they're quite cheerful about it. Not at the moment, never seen so many snarls. Add tourists with their usual happy-go-lucky "I can't see you so you're not there" stance and scarpering back and up inland becomes pure bliss.

40C here,

OK, another two degrees added is an excuse that has to be accepted

just staying out of it with the fans on full blast. Am window shopping online for a heap A/C unit.

Same here. Been doing that for decades but once the odd week of swelter returned to just a normal blaze, I've always managed to convince myself that the investment isn't worth it. But that was always in September, afterwards. This one here looks to be a longer spell.

Still, one could be forced to live in Cordoba, so it's all relative.