Government Subsidised Heroin Usage Facility

[Ryanm]

This is a place in Vancouver in Canada that provides a place for Heroin addicts to shoot up as well as treatment when someone voluntarily decides they want to quit.



Do you think we would put up with government spending here in the U.S. to facilitate drug usage? It seems like it has its benefits, but it is sort of a new concept.

 

[What if...?]

This is a place in Vancouver in Canada that provides a place for Heroin addicts to shoot up as well as treatment when someone voluntarily decides they want to quit.



Do you think we would put up with government spending here in the U.S. to facilitate drug usage? It seems like it has its benefits, but it is sort of a new concept.

Many other cou tries are engaging in "harm reduction" activities.

America has a punishment first model.

If our models don't work, we double down on them.

 

[specklebang]

That's why we have so failed.

It's ALWAYS just about money. More arrests, more prisons, more prisons, more contracts. We can't understand harm reduction. Why offer help when you can lock them up and throw away the key? This is one of many areas in which Europe is light years ahead of us.

Many other cou tries are engaging in "harm reduction" activities.

America has a punishment first model.

If our models don't work, we double down on them.

 

[Pinkie]

I agree with specklebang, but we do have clean needle exchanges and methadone clinics.

 

[specklebang]

Only in a few places and the moral majority is always trying to shut them down.

Methadone is a total scam. It's a way for doctors to become your dealer. Methadone is so old school that I'm amazed they still are allowed to peddle that ****.

Unfortunately, I happen to know exactly what I'm talking about (for once)

I agree with specklebang, but we do have clean needle exchanges and methadone clinics.

 

[Pinkie]

I cede to your knowledge, specklebang. I don't know a lot about methadone.

 

[Ryanm]

Here is pretty much the one thing that I see that is bad about this. The only way the addicts acquire the drugs is the old-fashioned way out on the street. From what I know about heroin addicts, they will do about anything or lie to anyone to get more of it. This facility has obvious health benefits by reducing the spread of HIV and protecting people from OD deaths, but it would seem that the harm they actually do to others is not reduced. When an addict is in prison and they (generally) have no access to drugs there would be no reason for them to steal from family and friends.

I feel like it's putting a band-aid on a broken leg. Regardless of the means, it would seem as if the only way for someone to recover is by their own will to do so.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Well our current model on the "war on drugs" is clearly not working, and i believe we should work towards this direction if we actually want to do what is best for society...

 

[Ryanm]

Well our current model on the "war on drugs" is clearly not working, and i believe we should work towards this direction if we actually want to do what is best for society...

Perhaps the law vs treatment issue isn't about which is better, but rather about where they should be applied.

I think the best allocation would be to focus law on the major suppliers that bring them from the middle-east and the treatment aspect to focus on the end-user.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I support cessation programs - only.

And even then my support is limited - someone can't just get special services because they choose - every moment of their life - to continue to be an addict. so it should go based on the person's efforts to quit - cooperation with the program - success - and efforts in their personal life. The more success someone has the more on-track they can get their life.

That would be ideal.

However - it makes no sense to try to improve one such 'program' while letting countless other programs go to **** - drug addicts shouldn't get better treatment than an abused woman who had to leave her husband because of his drug addiction - or the children of said people . . . etc. Drug addiction should never net someone any sort of luxury in life - only sobriety should bring benefits.

 

[Helix]

i think we'd be better off treating than incarcerating. i like needle exchange programs at the very least. we all benefit when a pocket of people ceases to be a hepatitis incubator.

 

[lpast]

Hey why the hell not...let the govt fund all ILLEGAL activities...want sex ? hell yeah not to worry govt will subisidize your sex addiction...and anything else you want for any addiction at all....free cigs and booze too and soon we can provide them with supersized drinks when their banned

 

[Jetboogieman]

I support cessation programs - only.

And even then my support is limited - someone can't just get special services because they choose - every moment of their life - to continue to be an addict. so it should go based on the person's efforts to quit - cooperation with the program - success - and efforts in their personal life. The more success someone has the more on-track they can get their life.

That would be ideal.

However - it makes no sense to try to improve one such 'program' while letting countless other programs go to **** - drug addicts shouldn't get better treatment than an abused woman who had to leave her husband because of his drug addiction - or the children of said people . . . etc. Drug addiction should never net someone any sort of luxury in life - only sobriety should bring benefits.

Addiction is a very vicious cycle Auntie...

I'm not sure what your experience with addiction is but I think one way in which we can start to combat alcohol and drug addiction in our society is to try to shift this harsh view we have of it.

When you're an addict, or at least in my experience it's something you try your best to hide... but after awhile again in my experience it becomes impossible and when they finally comes out there's an extremely judgemental atmosphere that takes place around you, whether from co-workers, friends, family etc... of course some will try to help you but that sense of judgement and disapointement only helps you fuel the addiction because well... the drugs don't judge you.

In this case, not only does it provide a clean place to do your business safely but also a judgementless environment which can definitely help... and in the end we'll end up paying for whatever ailments they pick up doing their business the bad way... it's a win-win for everyone.

Your ideas aren't entirely without merit but addiction is not a black and white issue that be judged quite as harshly as you're doing so here.

 

[Jetboogieman]

Hey why the hell not...let the govt fund all ILLEGAL activities...want sex ? hell yeah not to worry govt will subisidize your sex addiction...and anything else you want for any addiction at all....free cigs and booze too and soon we can provide them with supersized drinks when their banned

Umm... lpast...

They're not buying them the heroine.

The idea of providing clean needles is not unlike a family planning clinic that may be funded or partially funded by government providing free condoms...

That's not funding the illegal activity and by the way since when was sex an illegal activity :lol:

If it is I sure am in trouble.

 

[lpast]

Umm... lpast...

They're not buying them the heroine.

The idea of providing clean needles is not unlike a family planning clinic that may be funded or partially funded by government providing free condoms...

That's not funding the illegal activity and by the way since when was sex an illegal activity :lol:

If it is I sure am in trouble.

Prostitution is illegal activity most everywhere in the US...im against providing anything for ones addiction aside from help to stop it...these needle exchanges do more enabling than anything else

 

[Mustachio]

Only in a few places and the moral majority is always trying to shut them down.

Methadone is a total scam. It's a way for doctors to become your dealer. Methadone is so old school that I'm amazed they still are allowed to peddle that ****.

Unfortunately, I happen to know exactly what I'm talking about (for once)

Doctors becoming your drug dealer? Often, doctors start as your drug dealer.

Methadone is not a scam, it may be a very flawed method of chemical dependency treatment, but it's not a scam. Since you know what you're talking about, you are aware that the recovery rate for addicts is very low and the recovery rate for opiate addicts is even lower. That's not surprising, since in the case of a long term opiate addict, post acute withdrawal can last for months or sometimes years (in the case of individuals who have been using for 5-10 years or longer). While you may not like the methadone system itself, maintenance programs are logical and individuals who participate can get their lives back without having to go out and get a new job with the jimmy legs and a persistent runny nose.

The ideal system would be transitioning addicts to a maintenance program and, when they have sustained employment and good prospects, have a clinically supervised slow taper and then release them into the world like in White Fang. That's where methadone sucks. A slow methadone taper would take like 25 years. Methadone is not the right drug for the kind of maintenance program I'm talking about. We've got some awesome new prospects that doctors are working with, but the medical community has no financial motivation to transition from methadone to a newer, better drug - and that's where your critique is accurate. I know of a very prestigious rehab center who is in the process of implementing a new system for opiate addicts, and once the big ones lead the way, the rest will follow.

 

[Pinkie]

Prostitution is illegal activity most everywhere in the US...im against providing anything for ones addiction aside from help to stop it...these needle exchanges do more enabling than anything else

Clean needle exchanges were a response to the emergence of AIDS and Hep C, lpast. Surely you can see the benefit to us all if fewer people are infected with deadly, communicable diseases?

 

[Jetboogieman]

Prostitution is illegal activity most everywhere in the US...im against providing anything for ones addiction aside from help to stop it...these needle exchanges do more enabling than anything else

Addicts are addicted lpast!

If there was a magical place where they could all go to get rid of their addiction, believe me we'd all go there.

But since there isn't, and since these folks are going to do it anyway, it's a small thing that can be done not only to keep them safe, but also to lower costs on the health care system.

Nobodies going to wake up one morning and say "Oh yeah there's a place that provides clean needles... I think I'll try heroine today" and book a ****ing reservation.

 

[Surtr]

This is a place in Vancouver in Canada that provides a place for Heroin addicts to shoot up as well as treatment when someone voluntarily decides they want to quit.



Do you think we would put up with government spending here in the U.S. to facilitate drug usage? It seems like it has its benefits, but it is sort of a new concept.

Enabling isn't the answer. I don't think imprisoning them is, either, but to give them a place and clean needles? I just can't agree to that. May as well be giving someone with severe depression a loaded pistol.

 

[specklebang]

My area of expertise is the use of Buprenorphine (AKA Subutex) and buprenorphine + naloxone (AKA Suboxen). Works 1000 times better than Methadone and since you can't get high on it, the Drs. can write you a scrip that can be refilled as many times as the Dr. is willing.

It is truly a "miracle drug" and Methadone is a "cure" that's worse than the original addiction. The ONLY reason for Methadone is for its greater pain relief. However, buprenorphine is also a pain-killer for moderate pain. It gives you a normal life back with no suffering.

I don't know what the success rate is for buprenorphine but I'll stick my neck out and say that its 10 times more successful than methadone. Methadone can be sold as a street drug while buprenorphine has zero street value (in the Suboxone format). One of the bits of buprenorphine users humor is that NOBODY ever runs out of the scrip early.

If anyone here is suffering from opiate addiction. either heroin or prescription, and you want more information, look it up and feel free to ask me questions in a PM. Your inquiry will be 101% confidential, that is a promise and I always keep my promises.

Buprenorphine requires a special license but there are now plenty of licensees. Unfortunately, many insurance companies won't cover it. The current retail price is about $3.50 for the 8 mg. but some people can get by with 2 mg. or you can split the 8s and do fine on the 4 mg. results. Buprenorphine was moved to the regular schedules (prescription but not controlled so refills allowed) in 2006.

Doctors becoming your drug dealer? Often, doctors start as your drug dealer.

Methadone is not a scam, it may be a very flawed method of chemical dependency treatment, but it's not a scam. Since you know what you're talking about, you are aware that the recovery rate for addicts is very low and the recovery rate for opiate addicts is even lower. That's not surprising, since in the case of a long term opiate addict, post acute withdrawal can last for months or sometimes years (in the case of individuals who have been using for 5-10 years or longer). While you may not like the methadone system itself, maintenance programs are logical and individuals who participate can get their lives back without having to go out and get a new job with the jimmy legs and a persistent runny nose.

The ideal system would be transitioning addicts to a maintenance program and, when they have sustained employment and good prospects, have a clinically supervised slow taper and then release them into the world like in White Fang. That's where methadone sucks. A slow methadone taper would take like 25 years. Methadone is not the right drug for the kind of maintenance program I'm talking about. We've got some awesome new prospects that doctors are working with, but the medical community has no financial motivation to transition from methadone to a newer, better drug - and that's where your critique is accurate. I know of a very prestigious rehab center who is in the process of implementing a new system for opiate addicts, and once the big ones lead the way, the rest will follow.

 

[lpast]

Addicts are addicted lpast!

If there was a magical place where they could all go to get rid of their addiction, believe me we'd all go there.

But since there isn't, and since these folks are going to do it anyway, it's a small thing that can be done not only to keep them safe, but also to lower costs on the health care system.



Nobodies going to wake up one morning and say "Oh yeah there's a place that provides clean needles... I think I'll try heroine today" and book a ****ing reservation.

Ive been around untold addicts on a personal basis...and heres what I know from decades of experience...every single one that wanted to get clean...did...everyone that didnt...did not and it didnt matter how much or what you gave them...or how much money you spent on them

 

[Mustachio]

Ive been around untold addicts on a personal basis...and heres what I know from decades of experience...every single one that wanted to get clean...did...everyone that didnt...did not and it didnt matter how much or what you gave them...or how much money you spent on them

haha, you must mean that for every addict that didn't get clean, you retroactively concluded that they didn't want to get clean. And how many that got clean wound up at Betty Ford another dozen times in the years since you last talked to them? And how many claimed to be clean and secretly drank a 3 liter box of wine every night after their AA meeting?

Here's what I know from my experience: addiction is a disease and it has nothing to do with willpower to get clean. First step, lp.

 

[lpast]

haha, you must mean that for every addict that didn't get clean, you retroactively concluded that they didn't want to get clean. And how many that got clean wound up at Betty Ford another dozen times in the years since you last talked to them? And how many claimed to be clean and secretly drank a 3 liter box of wine every night after their AA meeting?

Here's what I know from my experience: addiction is a disease and it has nothing to do with willpower to get clean. First step, lp.

If they "WANT" to get clean they do...the people that make their living off of addictions...counselors, researchers etc etc keep all the bs going so the cash flow never stops rollin....they feed their vested interest nicely...always have

 

[Paschendale]

So, you folks that are outraged by this, how exactly do you suggest detoxing addicts? Cold turkey? You do know how dangerous/difficult/ineffective that is, right? Maybe if you weren't so focused on feeling superior to people with a problem, and instead think about how you can help them, real progress could be made. Deriding someone and insulting them, telling them they're too weak or that overcoming an addiction is simply a matter of willpower, which you're so quick to declare that some people just don't have... that doesn't help. It's even an inherent contradiction. If it's all a matter of choice, and some people simply do not posses the innate fortitude to defeat an addiction... then it's not their choice. No matter how you slice it, passing judgement and refusing to help still isn't helping.

 

[Pinkie]

There were heroin addicts in my high school -- one of the first thing you learned was to never stick you hand into a wastepaper basket full of paper. I can't begin to imagine the kind of pain that'd make heroin look appetizing to a teenager, but I do know none of those kids would have been addicts if the drug weren't available.

I feel whipsawed by my concern for the addicts and my concern for those at risk of sliding into this non-life.