GOP seeks alternative to overtime pay

[AlabamaPaul]

There are a number of ways that this happens. More exports is one, wage growth exceeding inflation is another, tax cuts is another, government deficit spending is another, reducing the pooling effect of income and wealth is another, population growth is another, etc.. Some ways are more preferable than others obviously.

How does a country increase exports? Wages and wage growth are a function of the labor supply. Tax cuts and government spending are direct interventions in the market when compared to a static model. If there is no innovation driven growth, population increases would only depress consumption.

There are only two ways to promote economic growth, one is innovation, the other is a loosening of government's leashes that might be holding it back. Okay, a large discovery of natural resources might do it as well...

 

[imagep]

An increase in the ability to consume.

You may take the viewpoint that employees always get screwed by their employers, but other than that your understanding of economics is far beyond the average Joe (or should I say the average AlabamaPaul). thank you for helping to educate him.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

An increase in the ability to consume.

There will be no increase in the ability to consume unless innovation creates more opportunities for wage or employment growth, preferably both...

 

[jwzg]

How does a country increase exports? Wages and wage growth are a function of the labor supply. Tax cuts and government spending are direct interventions in the market when compared to a static model. If there is no innovation driven growth, population increases would only depress consumption.

There are only two ways to promote economic growth, one is innovation, the other is a loosening of government's leashes that might be holding it back. Okay, a large discovery of natural resources might do it as well...

Ahhh, "total factor productivity". I'd say AP knows his economics quite well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_factor_productivity

 

[grip]

Re: Government intervention is it happening in politics today?

I agree with that.
It is my opinion that opportuities care lacking not people that want to work.
Let's face it all Americans can't be middle class from the start but they can work their self up to middle class.
One thing for sure there will always be 3 classes in America the working poor, the middle class and the rich all pay directly or indirectly to the poor the only class that does not work.eace

I agree the high unemployment numbers aren't all from people who simply dropped out of the work force.
There will always be a working class but the middle is shrinking quickly.
What makes me ill is when you see Romney, Obama and the likes pay 1/2 the amount in taxes people who make less do.

 

[imagep]

How does a country increase exports? Wages and wage growth are a function of the labor supply. Tax cuts and government spending are direct interventions in the market when compared to a static model. If there is no innovation driven growth, population increases would only depress consumption.

There are only two ways to promote economic growth, one is innovation, the other is a loosening of government's leashes that might be holding it back. Okay, a large discovery of natural resources might do it as well...

In the couple of decades after WW2, we increased our exports because most of the industrial base in the rest of the world was destroyed. As they gradually rebuilt their industrial base, our exports decreased. That said, a country can increase exports by producing more efficiently (at least from a cost standpoint), much like China did.

One of the many many things that you don't understand about aggregate demand is that it can only exist to the point that your customers have the ability to purchase more stuff. Now sure, innovation is great, and maybe a fancy new util product can pry some additional money out of the hands of those who are more predispositioned to hoard money, but the bulk of our population already spends every dollar that they have, or pretty darned close to it. So when they chose to purchase a new innovative product, it is at the expense of not purchasing a competing product, and thus there is little if any increase in aggregate demand.

Again, it's zero sum theory applied to economics. The aggregate demand plus savings will always be 100% of the aggregate GDP.

 

[Fisher]

Of course it would be more than just whatever percent that makes minimum wage who would get wage increases. And there is also a multiplier effect anytime we increase demand. So let's say that minimum wage workers tend to spend their marginal pay increases on shoes, then shoe stores hire more shoe sales people, and managers, and open more locations, and shoe factories start producing more shoes. And maybe people who are in the shoe industry tend to purchase a lot of big macs when they have extra money, so McDonalds then sells more big macs, has to hire more cooks, opens a few more locations, purchases more beef, and the beef producers then have to hire more people, etc.

And I am not even suggesting that increasing minimum wage is the best way or the only way to increase demand, but it would increase demand. My favorite way is to have a more progressive income tax (think tax cuts for the non-rich).

Can you point to a credible study that has ever found that increases in minimum wage moves people out of poverty?

 

[AlabamaPaul]

In the couple of decades after WW2, we increased our exports because most of the industrial base in the rest of the world was destroyed. As they gradually rebuilt their industrial base, our exports decreased. That said, a country can increase exports by producing more efficiently (at least from a cost standpoint), much like China did.

One of the many many things that you don't understand about aggregate demand is that it can only exist to the point that your customers have the ability to purchase more stuff. Now sure, innovation is great, and maybe a fancy new util product can pry some additional money out of the hands of those who are more predispositioned to hoard money, but the bulk of our population already spends every dollar that they have, or pretty darned close to it. So when they chose to purchase a new innovative product, it is at the expense of not purchasing a competing product, and thus there is little if any increase in aggregate demand.

Again, it's zero sum theory applied to economics. The aggregate demand plus savings will always be 100% of the aggregate GDP.

Is there a particular reason you leave investment out of your equation? Your view of economics appears to be stuck the sixties before Nixon unleashed his "surprise"...

 

[imagep]

Can you point to a credible study that has ever found that increases in minimum wage moves people out of poverty?

One of the issues here is that increases in minimum wage rarely if ever keep up with inflation. It's been 4 years since minimum wage increased, yet during that 4 years we have had 12% or so of inflation. So no, I can't point to a credible study, because there has not been a substantial time period to study.

but we can look to other countries which have either a higher minimum wage or an effective voluntary minimum wage, and find that they have a lower percent of poverty. Countries like Germany, Australia, and all of the scandinavian countries.

Now can you find a "credible study" that proves based upon actual existing historic economic data that increases in wages harm economic growth or increase poverty?

 

[imagep]

Is there a particular reason you leave investment out of your equation? Your view of economics appears to be stuck the sixties before Nixon unleashed his "surprise"...

Yea, I just failed to explain that investment is a subcategory of savings. sorry, I just assumed that you knew enough about economics to understand that, obviously I gave you too much credit.

 

[KevinKohler]

You may take the viewpoint that employees always get screwed by their employers, but other than that your understanding of economics is far beyond the average Joe (or should I say the average AlabamaPaul). thank you for helping to educate him.

Not always. There are a great deal of decent employers and good bosses. But there are an equal number of bad employers, and horrible bosses, and telling people to find a better job is akin to the "if you don't like this country, move" argument.

I attack larger businesses because its been my experience that the greater the degree of separation between the senior staff and the low rung employees, the worse those low rung employees are viewed and treated.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Yea, I just failed to explain that investment is a subcategory of savings. sorry, I just assumed that you knew enough about economics to understand that, obviously I gave you too much credit.

Oh, so now we're going to go with insults. Be careful what you wish for. You know where I'm coming from, but I'm having a problem gauging your philosophy...

 

[KevinKohler]

There will be no increase in the ability to consume unless innovation creates more opportunities for wage or employment growth, preferably both...

You really think that? Where are those iPods being made, lol? So, in order for people to make more money, we need to invent new things?

 

[imagep]

Not always. There are a great deal of decent employers and good bosses. But there are an equal number of bad employers, and horrible bosses, and telling people to find a better job is akin to the "if you don't like this country, move" argument.

I attack larger businesses because its been my experience that the greater the degree of separation between the senior staff and the low rung employees, the worse those low rung employees are viewed and treated.

Fair enough.

It can be easy to screw people you don't know and don't see everyday, and much more difficult to screw those who you personally know and work with.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

You really think that? Where are those iPods being made, lol? So, in order for people to make more money, we need to invent new things?

Yes, we need to innovate to grow the economy. Do you disagree?

 

[KevinKohler]

Can you point to a credible study that has ever found that increases in minimum wage moves people out of poverty?

It's not about moving people out of poverty, it's about increasing consumption.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

It's not about moving people out of poverty, it's about increasing consumption.

Opportunity will lead to an increase in consumption. A minimum wage only decreases that opportunity...

 

[KevinKohler]

Yes, we need to innovate to grow the economy. Do you disagree?

Innovation is just one facet of growth.


Reality check. We are a consumer based economy. So, the way to grow a consumer based economy is to increase consumption. The invention of the iPhone did mean I now have two cell phones...it simply means I ditched the old for the new. That is not growth. I have two kids, though. Which forces me to buy product I otherwise wouldn't. Growth. And when they are old enough, they will start buying their own stuff. Growth. Plus, I make more money now than I did, leading to my buying a house. Big growth.

 

[KevinKohler]

Opportunity will lead to an increase in consumption. A minimum wage only decreases that opportunity...

Are you saying that minimum wage kills jobs?

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Are you saying that minimum wage kills jobs?

Yes, it reduces the opportunities of the lowest skilled to enter the market...

 

[imagep]

Oh, so now we're going to go with insults. Be careful what you wish for. You know where I'm coming from, but I'm having a problem gauging your philosophy...

Sorry, I probably shouldn't have gone there, but you made it just too easy. It's hard to pass up the opportunity to be a arsehole sometimes.

 

[imagep]

Yes, we need to innovate to grow the economy. Do you disagree?

Innovation is great, it improves our lives, but it is not neccesary to grow the economy. Higher wages or lower taxes are.

 

[imagep]

Opportunity will lead to an increase in consumption. A minimum wage only decreases that opportunity...

Assuming that minimum wage decreases income disparity, and with the knowledge that lower income people have a higher propensity to consume than higher wage people do, then I have to argue that increasing minimum wage would do more to increase consumption than it would decrease opportunity. When aggregate demand increases (regardless of the cause), businesses expand and hire people. The more jobs there are, the more opportunity there is, especially if those jobs pay more money.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Innovation is great, it improves our lives, but it is not neccesary to grow the economy. Higher wages or lower taxes are.

Good gawd. A country cannot dictate wages effectively and taxes are a function of governmental policy. On who would you like to reduce taxes? Bush basically took this out of the equation when looking at the long term. I would have advocated for the elimination of payroll taxes when the recession began, but we're beyond that now...

 

[Fisher]

One of the issues here is that increases in minimum wage rarely if ever keep up with inflation. It's been 4 years since minimum wage increased, yet during that 4 years we have had 12% or so of inflation. So no, I can't point to a credible study, because there has not been a substantial time period to study.

but we can look to other countries which have either a higher minimum wage or an effective voluntary minimum wage, and find that they have a lower percent of poverty. Countries like Germany, Australia, and all of the scandinavian countries.

Now can you find a "credible study" that proves based upon actual existing historic economic data that increases in wages harm economic growth or increase poverty?

The actual state of knowledge of the impact that the minimum wage has on employment in North America, and especially in Québec, leads to the conclusion that a minimum wage that is greater than 50% of the average wage is harmful to small wage earners and that a minimum wage that is less than 45% has very little risk for this group of workers. Between these limits, the area of 45% to 50% would represent an increasing danger to employment.

Worthwhile Canadian Initiative: When the minimum wage bites