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Golan Heights

24107

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Is the Golan Heights, considered to be permanent territory by Israel? or a bargaining chip for peace with Syria? as that particular piece of land is widely recognized to be Syrian land under Israeli occupation.
 

donsutherland1

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Although Israel annexed the Golan Heights, it could be a bargaining chip. In his autobiography, President Clinton recounted that Israel was prepared to give up all but a few hundred meters of the Golan Heights. In 2007, there were news reports that Prime Minister Olmert offered the Golan Heights in return for peace, including Syria's ending its support to Hezbollah, Hamas, and cooperation with Iran.
 

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Although Israel annexed the Golan Heights, it could be a bargaining chip. In his autobiography, President Clinton recounted that Israel was prepared to give up all but a few hundred meters of the Golan Heights. In 2007, there were news reports that Prime Minister Olmert offered the Golan Heights in return for peace, including Syria's ending its support to Hezbollah, Hamas, and cooperation with Iran.
Interesting, thanks for the reply, I wonder if that few hundred meters that Israel is not willing to give up, is still not good enough to the Syrians, as they may feel entitled to have the right to all of it, for the simple fact that it is seen by them as 100% theirs. Which I know is a tough question to answer.
 

donsutherland1

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Interesting, thanks for the reply, I wonder if that few hundred meters that Israel is not willing to give up, is still not good enough to the Syrians, as they may feel entitled to have the right to all of it, for the simple fact that it is seen by them as 100% theirs. Which I know is a tough question to answer.
Land is treated with great reverence. I suspect that perspective contributed to Hafez Assad's turning down the offer. Another dynamic might also have been in play: Syria's benchmarking its negotiating outcome with Egypt's (Egypt regained 100% of the Sinai Peninsula). Unfortunately, as far as I know, Assad did not write any memoirs (or at least they're not available in the U.S.). It would be interesting to understand why he decided as he did.
 

Demon of Light

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Land is treated with great reverence. I suspect that perspective contributed to Hafez Assad's turning down the offer. Another dynamic might also have been in play: Syria's benchmarking its negotiating outcome with Egypt's (Egypt regained 100% of the Sinai Peninsula). Unfortunately, as far as I know, Assad did not write any memoirs (or at least they're not available in the U.S.). It would be interesting to understand why he decided as he did.
Maybe it was because Israel felt they could give a dime and get a dollar.
 

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I read today, that the President of Syria stated recently, that the spector of war in the middleast is increasing, due to the issue about the Golan Heights. I believe the conditions are becoming ripe for this, in addition to the Golan Heights dispute, Palestine issue, tensions with Lebanon on the border, Israel inciting other foreign powers to threaten Iran with military action, the flotilla incident with Turkey damaging it's ties with it's only friendly ally in the region and also Mubarek's health in Egypt in decline;possibly paving the way for a more anti-israeli successor to take over, war in the near future is certainly very possible.
 

ido_

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I think that going back to the days Rabin was PM, the disagreement was on the eastern bank of the sea of Gallile. The Syrians want to wade in the lake's water but it is a part of mandate Palestine and not a Syrian territory. I believe it was no man's land between 1948-1967
 

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I think that going back to the days Rabin was PM, the disagreement was on the eastern bank of the sea of Gallile. The Syrians want to wade in the lake's water but it is a part of mandate Palestine and not a Syrian territory. I believe it was no man's land between 1948-1967
the golan heights was part of mandate Palestine? now i've heard it all. How about China? was that also part of mandate Palestine?
 
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donsutherland1

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For those who are interested, there is a New York Times story that describes Israel's position with respect to the strip of land it sought to retain in 2000. The newspaper stated:

The Sea of Galilee is Israel's main source of fresh water. Israel fears that the Syrians might deliberately or accidentally contaminate the sea or claim a portion of the Galilee for their own use. The Israelis are reportedly willing to offer Syria additional territory elsewhere in exchange for a shoreline buffer strip, but Damascus has shown no interest in such a swap.

Although the piece is a newspaper editorial, it is useful in that it provides a glimpse of Israel's negotiating position. It also reveals Israeli flexibility with respect to land swaps.
 
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CJ 2.0

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Interesting, thanks for the reply, I wonder if that few hundred meters that Israel is not willing to give up, is still not good enough to the Syrians, as they may feel entitled to have the right to all of it, for the simple fact that it is seen by them as 100% theirs. Which I know is a tough question to answer.
My understanding is that Syria actually wants more than 100%, to include the Israeli territory to the east of the Sea of Gallillee and full rights to use the waters. Which is an odd position for a country that was never entitled to that territory and started a war in which it got its *** handed to it.

Separately, while the territory is widely regarded as Syrian, the transfer of sovereignty from Britain to Syria in 1923 was not actually authorized by the mandate which vested britain in limited sovereignty over the territory - those rights did not include the right to alienate territory to any state. Based on that, and the fact Israel has held the territory for just as long as Syria held it, I don't think you can say the legal status of the territory is beyond dispute.
 

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the golan heights was part of mandate Palestine? now i've heard it all. How about China? was that also part of mandate Palestine?
See, and this is where education about the issues is improtant to a proper understanding. The land ido was talking about was not given to Syria ever - he weas talking about the eastern bank of the sea, which was allocated to Israel through partitition.

With respect to the Golan, it WAS a part of the mandate, but was illegally ceded to Syria in 1923 (Britain had no power to do that under the terms of the mandate as set out by the leauge of nations).
 

Demon of Light

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With respect to the Golan, it WAS a part of the mandate, but was illegally ceded to Syria in 1923 (Britain had no power to do that under the terms of the mandate as set out by the leauge of nations).


Lex Luthor, you know what to do:

 

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Lex Luthor, you know what to do:
Too funny.

The Palestine Mandate as granted to Great Britain at the San Remo Conference of 1920, and, confirmed by the League of Nations in 1922, covered a territory of 45,820 square miles East and West of the Jordan river. Its boundaries reached from the Mediterranean in the West to Iraq border in the East. Thus, all of Trans-Jordan and the Golan were encompassed within the border of the Palestine Mandate. Trans-Jordan (Jordan) was in fact what the relevant League of Nations file called "The Trans-Jordan Province of Palestine" until the last meeting of the League on April 18, 1946.
The Golan Heights - The Peace FAQ

Here are some maps

OFICL: Maps of Palestine under the Mandate/The 1920 Franco-British Boundary Convention. in particular:
 

Attachments

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Demon of Light

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Too funny.

The Palestine Mandate as granted to Great Britain at the San Remo Conference of 1920, and, confirmed by the League of Nations in 1922, covered a territory of 45,820 square miles East and West of the Jordan river. Its boundaries reached from the Mediterranean in the West to Iraq border in the East. Thus, all of Trans-Jordan and the Golan were encompassed within the border of the Palestine Mandate. Trans-Jordan (Jordan) was in fact what the relevant League of Nations file called "The Trans-Jordan Province of Palestine" until the last meeting of the League on April 18, 1946.
The Golan Heights - The Peace FAQ

Here are some maps

OFICL: Maps of Palestine under the Mandate/The 1920 Franco-British Boundary Convention. in particular:
ROTFLMAO! Your sources are this: Famous Jews: Home and this: Office for Israeli Constitutional Law: Home Page

Here's a map for you from a less bull****ty source:

Holy Land Maps

That refers to their division by the Ottomans. The Golan Heights has been constantly part of every territory allotted that covers most of Syria, most importantly all territories centered in Damascus, throughout history. To be fair the Golan Heights were part of the historic Kingdom of Israel and even the Hasmonean kingdom. Zionists clearly wanted them as part of a Jewish state, but then they also wanted Southern Lebanon and part of the East Bank, which were also parts of historic Israel.

Ultimately there was no territory "ceded" rather they demarcated where the two territories meet. That demarcation was actually supported by Zionists as well because it awarded them complete control over the Sea of Galilee. To suggest Israel has some legal claim to the Golan Heights is utter nonsense.
 

CJ 2.0

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oy. I don't think there is much doubt that lands in the Golan were ceded from Britain to France in 1923, nor that these were lands within the mandate. Nor is there doubt of what the terms of the mandate really were. Not sure about how a map from 1895 provides any evidence of how lands were divided and what was included in the mandate in 1920/1922 or what lands were ceded in 1923, but if you really think it's relevant, more power to you.

In any event, Syria continually assaulted Israeli population and agricultural communities from its vantage point on the heights for decades, then staretd a war that it lost. Israel can choose to cede that territory to Syria if it chooses to.

Or not.
 

Degreez

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With respect to the Golan, it WAS a part of the mandate, but was illegally ceded to Syria in 1923 (Britain had no power to do that under the terms of the mandate as set out by the leauge of nations).
You talk about being educated on the subjection that spew that above? The Golan Heights were not ceded to Syria in 1923. In 1920, the Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia became the base of the boundaries between Britain Palestine and Mesopotamia and French Syria and Lebanon. The majority of the Golan Heights was included in the French mandate. In 1923, the French and British agreed on the exact boundaries of each of their Mandates.
 

kaya'08

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I hope a consensus is reached on the Golan heights. But don't be sympathetic towards the Syrians, it wasn't as though Israel started the war and took it for themselves.
 

Demon of Light

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oy. I don't think there is much doubt that lands in the Golan were ceded from Britain to France in 1923, nor that these were lands within the mandate. Nor is there doubt of what the terms of the mandate really were. Not sure about how a map from 1895 provides any evidence of how lands were divided and what was included in the mandate in 1920/1922 or what lands were ceded in 1923, but if you really think it's relevant, more power to you.
There were lands in the Golan that were originally to be included in the British mandate, but were later decided to be included in the French mandate. However, there was no ceding of territory. What actually happened is them deciding where one territory ended and another began. The mandates were not officially formed until after this matter was resolved. While we consider the mandate as beginning in 1920 in general that was a de-facto rather than de-jure situation.

As for the older map, it more is about making the point that the Golan Heights were entirely within the territory that comprised most of Syria and was separate from all territories connected to Palestine.

I notice you did not even comment on the fact Zionists endorsed this demarcation because they made a significant gain from it.

In any event, Syria continually assaulted Israeli population and agricultural communities from its vantage point on the heights for decades, then staretd a war that it lost. Israel can choose to cede that territory to Syria if it chooses to.
You misunderstand the nature of the situation. There were ongoing border tensions , but hostility went back and forth with the most serious incidents being sparked by Israel, usually deliberately. One major cause for hostility was Israel diverting water from the Jordan, indeed one of the first things Fatah attacked was the National Water Carrier project. It is precisely these tensions and plans for further attacks from Israel that sparked the series of events leading to the Six-Day War. Right before the Straits of Tiran were closed Israel had approved a plan to launch more intensive strikes inside Syria and there was talk of instituting regime change in Syria.
 

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the golan heights was part of mandate Palestine? now i've heard it all. How about China? was that also part of mandate Palestine?
Man you really have serious problems comprehanding what you read. The eastern bank of the sea of the Gallile is not a part of the Golan Heights. How the hell is this strip of land which is -200 meters under the sea level is a part of the Golan Heights?
This strip of land was invaded by the Syrians in 1948 and was demilitirized at the end of the war until 1967.
 

ludahai

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the golan heights was part of mandate Palestine? now i've heard it all. How about China? was that also part of mandate Palestine?
Nah, China was given to POrtugal in the Treaty of Tordesillas...

Seriously, of course Golan was not part of the Palestine Mandate, it was part of French-Administered Syria and Lebanon. There is also a Lebanese claim to a part of Golan known as the Shebaa Farms...
 

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Man you really have serious problems comprehanding what you read. The eastern bank of the sea of the Gallile is not a part of the Golan Heights. How the hell is this strip of land which is -200 meters under the sea level is a part of the Golan Heights?
This strip of land was invaded by the Syrians in 1948 and was demilitirized at the end of the war until 1967.
Just a case of glancing over your post too quickly.
 

Vader

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ROTFLMAO! Your sources are this: Famous Jews: Home and this: Office for Israeli Constitutional Law: Home Page

Here's a map for you from a less bull****ty source:

Holy Land Maps

That refers to their division by the Ottomans. The Golan Heights has been constantly part of every territory allotted that covers most of Syria, most importantly all territories centered in Damascus, throughout history. To be fair the Golan Heights were part of the historic Kingdom of Israel and even the Hasmonean kingdom. Zionists clearly wanted them as part of a Jewish state, but then they also wanted Southern Lebanon and part of the East Bank, which were also parts of historic Israel.

Ultimately there was no territory "ceded" rather they demarcated where the two territories meet. That demarcation was actually supported by Zionists as well because it awarded them complete control over the Sea of Galilee. To suggest Israel has some legal claim to the Golan Heights is utter nonsense.
Dude ... could you possibly be anymore anti-Israeli?
 

obvious Child

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Is the Golan Heights, considered to be permanent territory by Israel? or a bargaining chip for peace with Syria? as that particular piece of land is widely recognized to be Syrian land under Israeli occupation.
It's Syrian, but Israel would be 100% retarded to give it back. I may dislike Israel for a variety of reasons, but considering the potential for Syria to put back artillery on the heights is enough to warrant never giving it back until there are some serious changes in Syria. Sure it's a bargaining chip, but one I don't think Israel should seriously consider.
 

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Dude ... could you possibly be anymore anti-Israeli?
Dude, you are possibly the most anti-Palestinian poster on this forum, what room do you have to cast judgement?
 

Demon of Light

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Dude ... could you possibly be anymore anti-Israeli?
What is anti-Israel about saying that not only did the Golan Heights not belong to the mandate, but that the Zionist leadership actually supported the demarcation that left all the Golan Heights outside the mandate?
 
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