GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

[tosca1]

My points raised were clear and simple. God provided plenty of OT examples of what obedience looks like. She dismissed them as being irrelevant.

It's irrelevant because I didn't say, obedience did not exist!
Look at Abraham!




Focusing on Hebrews 5:8—an inseparable part of one sentence running for three verses—we have an extremely condensed version of Jesus’ life on earth.
He was the infinite Son of God who nevertheless experienced the limits of space and time and life as we do.
God could have created a fully grown adult body for Jesus as He did for Adam and rushed Him to the cross, but He didn’t. Instead, Jesus left heaven, entered time (Philippians 2:5–8), and experienced for Himself ordinary human life
from birth to adulthood to death. Learning and suffering and death are part of the life experience for all people, and God ensured that His own Son would be no exception.
As God, Jesus did not need to learn anything, especially obedience; yet, at His incarnation, Jesus limited Himself to the human experience. He chose the weak position of having to learn and grow (Luke 2:52).

Jesus “learned obedience” not in the sense that He was prone to disobedience and had to bring rebelliousness under control, but in the sense that He fully entered the human experience.
As a child, He obeyed His parents (Luke 2:51); as an adult, He obeyed the Law (Matthew 5:17) and fulfilled all righteousness (Matthew 3:15).
All His life, Jesus completely fulfilled the Father’s will (John 8:29; 15:10; Hebrews 10:9). He knew what obedience was prior to His incarnation, of course, but He “learned” obedience on earth by experiencing it.
In every situation, no matter how difficult, the Son was obedient to the Father: “The Sovereign Lord has opened my ears; I have not been rebellious, I have not turned away. I offered my back to those who beat me” (Isaiah 50:5–6).

Jesus learned obedience “from what He suffered.” As the divine Son of God, Jesus did not have to suffer, but as the Son of Man, suffering was required to learn obedience.
The Greek word used in Hebrews 5:8 for “suffered” usually refers to enduring unpleasant experiences like disease (Mark 5:26) or persecution (Acts 8:1).
But it often also implies enduring a challenging process that transforms the sufferer (Romans 5:3; 2 Corinthians 1:3–9).

What does it mean that Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:8)? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered? What is the meaning of Hebrews 5:8? If Jesus is God, how could He have learned something?

www.gotquestions.org

Even at the time that He was feeling anxious about His coming torment and death, this is how He had prayed to God:


Matthew 26
39 He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.”




Though He's asking to be relieved from His ordeal................He's humbly accepting what GOD's answer will be.




We all have had our own "cup" in life. We'll have them throughout this life, in many different forms.
Be it sickness, loss, heartaches, etc..,
Thus, I take that as an example being given to us, how we approach GOD for help and relief.
ALWAYS.............we have to humbly submit to God's will on the matter.

 

[Overitall]

@Daisy



Both of you should try to understand what I'm saying.
Just because you two seem to have problems with comprehension - it doesn't mean that what I said is irrelevant.
You two, are the ones with a problem.


Lol - if you can't follow the dots - perhaps this kind of Biblical discussion is above you.

It's only reasonable to ask - if the two of you have a problem following such a simple response, and you couldn't even tell that it's directly addressing your statement -
how can you even make us take you seriously when you claim to have read and understood the Bible?




I'm responding to your post, and it has everything to do with what you said:





Let's try again.


If you and Daisy hadn't noticed - you brought up.............................. MARTYRDOM.
OPEN YOUR EYES! READ WHAT YOU SAID AGAIN!


He might not expect us to die for Him, however - He also warned us of the dangers of preaching the Gospel.
And had given us an important reassurance (line 28), should we find ourselves in such situations.

That was stated when He sent out His 12 apostles.




Matthew 10

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve​

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues.
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.


21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.
22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master.
25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!


26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.





Indeed, many Christians have been martyred. Even today, as we speak.

You're the one with the problem with reading comprehension. I said God doesn't expect us to die for Him. You took that and pointed out those that have died as martyred. God didn't ask them to die. Jesus on the other hand was destined to die for God in order to bring redemption to mankind.

 

[tosca1]

She must think it was relative. Or else she hopes to confuse us in order to avoid discussing honestly the Bible. My points raised were clear and simple. God provided plenty of OT examples of what obedience looks like. She dismissed them as being irrelevant.

@Daisy


Furthermore................



If we're supposed to be Christ-like, of course Jesus will have to show the example what it is to be Christ-like..........................right?



Jesus invites us to follow Him, and we have His example of obedience (John 15:10), sacrificial love (John 15:12-13), and patient suffering (1 Peter 2:19-23).

How can I become more Christlike? | GotQuestions.org

How can I become more Christlike (Christ-like)? I want to be more like Jesus, how can I accomplish that?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Loulit01]

Got a blister on my scroll finger.

 

[tosca1]

You're the one with the problem with reading comprehension. I said God doesn't expect us to die for Him.

I said, "might not."
Because how can I know for sure what is expected when we're faced with death.

I can't speak for GOD on His expectation regarding that.................................... especially so with the message given on Matthew 10.

You took that and pointed out those that have died as martyred. God didn't ask them to die.

They're relevant to my point.
God may not have asked them to - and I wonder if anyone has come forward and volunteered to be beheaded so he can die a martyr - but, do you know what GOD EXPECTS?

Jesus on the other hand was destined to die for God in order to bring redemption to mankind.

And........................................obviously, that wasn't all He came to do.
He set Himself as an example to us!

 

[Overitall]

I said, "might not."
Because how can I know for sure what is expected when we're faced with death.

I can't speak for GOD on His expectation regarding that.................................... especially so with the message given on Matthew 10.








They're relevant to my point.
God may not have asked them to - and I wonder if anyone has come forward and volunteered to be beheaded so he can die a martyr - but, do you know what GOD EXPECTS?








And........................................obviously, that wasn't all He came to do.
He set Himself as an example to us!

You're incapable of conceding when you've been clearly shown to be wrong. I challenge you to quote one scripture verse where God might have asked any Christians to die for Him. It's not about what you think God might require of us. There are numerous clear verses where we are told to live for God.

 

[Overitall]

It's irrelevant because I didn't say, obedience did not exist!
Look at Abraham!

You specifically said that God came in the form of Jesus Christ to show us what obedience looked like. I showed you where God had many examples recorded in the OT showing what obedience looks like debunking your viewpoint. You called those examples irrelevant. That's not honestly considering the scriptures; that's handling the Bible only to serve yourself.

 

[Overitall]

@Daisy


Furthermore................



If we're supposed to be Christ-like, of course Jesus will have to show the example what it is to be Christ-like..........................right?

Wrong! Jesus died to redeem us. We aren't asked to follow his example of dying for man's sins, since that was already accomplished.

Jesus invites us to follow Him, and we have His example of obedience (John 15:10), sacrificial love (John 15:12-13), and patient suffering (1 Peter 2:19-23).

How can I become more Christlike? | GotQuestions.org

How can I become more Christlike (Christ-like)? I want to be more like Jesus, how can I accomplish that?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[tosca1]

Wrong! Jesus died to redeem us. We aren't asked to follow his example of dying for man's sins,

That's not what I said.

See what I mean?
You have a problem with comprehension.


Thank you for proving my point.

You specifically said that God came in the form of Jesus Christ to show us what obedience looked like. I showed you where God had many examples recorded in the OT showing what obedience looks like debunking your viewpoint. You called those examples irrelevant. That's not honestly considering the scriptures; that's handling the Bible only to serve yourself.

Go back and read again.



If you've got nothing else to say that's worth responding to - I'll just have to ignore you for now.

 

[Overitall]

That's not what I said.

See what I mean?
You have a problem with comprehension.


Thank you for proving my point.




Go back and read again.



If you've got nothing else to say that's worth responding to - I'll just have to ignore you for now.

I know what you said. Lying about it won't wash.

 

[tosca1]

I know what you said. Lying about it won't wash.

Whatever.
Bye.

Back to the topic of this thread.

 

[tosca1]

For those who are interested, the last RECAP for the list of evidences for the TRINITY can be found on posts #257 and #258.

GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

And Jesus explains exactly the meaning of his words in the previous verses...they are unified in protecting their sheep and leading them to everlasting life... https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/43/10#s=30&study=discover Ezekiel 34 31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I...

debatepolitics.com

Many more evidences have been added since then.



As explained in the OP:

This thread will be for Scriptural verses with explanations if needed, including cross-references with other verses, that clearly show
Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God are all One and the Same.

 

[Overitall]

For those who are interested, the last RECAP for the list of evidences for the TRINITY can be found on posts #257 and #258.

GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

And Jesus explains exactly the meaning of his words in the previous verses...they are unified in protecting their sheep and leading them to everlasting life... https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/43/10#s=30&study=discover Ezekiel 34 31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I...

debatepolitics.com

Many more evidences have been added since then.



As explained in the OP:

This thread will be for Scriptural verses with explanations if needed, including cross-references with other verses, that clearly show
Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God are all One and the Same.

If you're preaching to the choir you won't have to convince them on the Trinity, but good luck convincing anyone that's not on your team. I doubt you're up to it.

 

[tosca1]

I would like to re-visit these:




Galatians 4
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”



Romans 8
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”




And, cross-referenced with thess:




Acts 5
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”


John 14
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.


John 14
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[Overitall]

I would like to re-visit these:




Galatians 4
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

Please note the word "sent". God is not coming personally in a different form. He's "sending" a different entity to redeem those under the law. That verse makes one thing very clear - Jesus Christ is not God, but the one God "sent". Two distinct separate beings -- one doing the action and the other being the object of the action.

Romans 8
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”




And, cross-referenced with this:




Acts 5
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

 

[tosca1]

John 14


17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.



Take note that on John 14, Jesus uses present tense when He said, But you know Him, for He lives with you.

Take note too, that not only did He uses the present tense, but He also said, He lives WITH you.
Jesus is talking about The Holy Spirit and Him - as being One and the same.

In the future, when Jesus will be ascended - He/The Spirit (GOD) will be IN us.

 

[tosca1]

Please note the word "sent". God is not coming personally in a different form. He's "sending" a different entity to redeem those under the law. That verse makes one thing very clear - Jesus Christ is not God, but the one God "sent". Two distinct separate beings -- one doing the action and the other being the object of the action.

This thread includes a lot of cross-referencing.

You're only taking apart one verse.
You are disregarding the cross-references - which do not go by what this thread is aimed to do.
The purpose of this thread is to give BIBLICAL references for the Trinity - as defined in the OP.


We have already spent quite some time discussing your differing viewpoint.
I have graciously accommodated you, although a lengthy discussion with an anti-Trinitarian, is not the purpose why this thread was created.
Enough is enough.



I am a Trinitarian - and I'm stating my faith in the Trinity thru this thread, and showing what I BELIEVE to be evidences for it.

That's why I created this thread in the THEOLOGY Section.





If you have any rebuttals or opposition to the references I give - kindly address them in your thread, The Trinity.

[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity

First, I’ll give the Orthodox definition of the Trinity. If anyone wants to share how they define it go for it. The doctrine of the trinity states that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and together, not exclusively, they form one God. The trinity is co eternal, without...

debatepolitics.com

In this thread I’d like to open a dialogue over what is biblically true.

You have created your thread for the purpose of dialogue, you said.
That's the best place to discuss differing viewpoints on The Trinity.

 

[Overitall]

This thread includes a lot of cross-referencing.

You're only taking apart one verse.
You are disregarding the cross-references - which do not go by what this thread is aimed to do.
The purpose of this thread is to give BIBLICAL references for the Trinity - as defined in the OP.


We have already spent quite some time discussing your differing viewpoint.
I have graciously accomodated you, although a lengthy discussion with an anti-Trinitarian, is not the purpose why this thread was created.
Enough is enough.

I am a Trinitarian - and I'm stating my faith in the Trinity thru this thread, and showing what I BELIEVE to be evidences for it.
That's why I created this thread in the THEOLOGY Section.


If you have any rebuttals or opposition to the references I give - kindly address them in your thread, The Trinity.

[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity

First, I’ll give the Orthodox definition of the Trinity. If anyone wants to share how they define it go for it. The doctrine of the trinity states that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and together, not exclusively, they form one God. The trinity is co eternal, without...

debatepolitics.com

You have created your thread for the purpose of dialogue, you said.
That's the best place to discuss differing viewpoints on The Trinity.

And I'm challenging your interpretation. You're just angry because you don't like being challenged. I can do it with respect for your faith/belief, while you have trouble doing the same.

 

[tosca1]

And I'm challenging your interpretation. You're just angry because you don't like being challenged. I can do it with respect for your faith/belief, while you have trouble doing the same.

Again - let me repeat - you can challenge what I give IN YOUR THREAD.
My thread isn't like your thread.

This thread is a statement of MY FAITH.
Although I've graciously accommodated your challenges, this thread was not created for it.


You - on the other hand - have created a specific thread about the Trinity, in which you welcome dialogue.
Do your challenges in your thread.
I'm not stopping you from copy/pasting what I write or post here. You can even quote me, if you want!
Just do it in your thread.

 

[Overitall]

Again - let me repeat - you can challenge what I give IN YOUR THREAD.
My thread isn't like your thread.

This thread is a statement of MY FAITH.
Although I've accommodated your challenges, this thread was not created for it.


You - on the other hand - have created a specific thread about the Trinity, in which you welcome dialogue.
Do your challenges in your thread.
I'm not topping you from copy/pasting what I write or post here. Just do it in your thread.

Fair enough.

 

[tosca1]

This was posted in Uplifting - but it also deals with the issue of Jesus being GOD.

 

[tosca1]

Thank you for the exchange of opinion between Daisy and Rumpel in another thread.
It brought home the fact;



Rejection of GOD (Old Testament) would be the same as............................... rejection of JESUS, in the New Testament.

Rejection of JESUS, is, rejection of GOD.

And, vice versa.



post #18
https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...sed-by-god-to-abraham.523514/#post-1078591009

 

[tosca1]

Well - lo and behold!
I stumbled on this while reading about prophetic words in the Bible:



This is GOD speaking, identifying Himself as The Messiah (Jesus):



Zechariah 12


A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

Mourning for the One They Pierced​

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

 

[Revelation]

Again - let me repeat - you can challenge what I give IN YOUR THREAD.
My thread isn't like your thread.

This thread is a statement of MY FAITH.
Although I've graciously accommodated your challenges, this thread was not created for it.


You - on the other hand - have created a specific thread about the Trinity, in which you welcome dialogue.
Do your challenges in your thread.
I'm not stopping you from copy/pasting what I write or post here. You can even quote me, if you want!
Just do it in your thread.

Tosca, as i get time i want to add support of the Trinity and Jesus to your thread. what you have written is excellent and the answers to Trinitarian questions are numerous.

we need to look at what the Early Church believed concerning this question as the study of ante-Nicene writers are very clear on the Deity of Jesus Christ as well as the Bible itself

as you know i am also a fan of christian cartoons to get the message across in a Graphical way to help some that like this kind of format.

Irenaeus (AD. 120-200) said:

"But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues..." (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9)

Irenaeus was certainly not a 'pagan', quite the opposite and i may do some back ground on him, but find him sufficient for an opening round of my personal study on this matter.

blessings Tosca.

 

[Revelation]

Thank you for the exchange of opinion between Daisy and Rumpel in another thread.
It brought home the fact;



Rejection of GOD (Old Testament) would be the same as............................... rejection of JESUS, in the New Testament.

Rejection of JESUS, is, rejection of GOD.

And, vice versa.

thank you. the Bible is very clear on this matter...

as were the Early church christians...

Athenagoras ( A.D. 177) said:

“We acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassable [i.e., not subject to suffering], incomprehensible, illimitable … by whom the universe has been created through his Logos … We acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let anyone think it ridiculous that God should have a Son … the Son of God is the Logos of the Father. If … it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that he is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence, for from the beginning God, who is the eternal mind, had theLogos in himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos. (Plea for the Christians ch. 10)

the above is quite clear on what Athenagoras stated, and i don't need to elaborate on this.

blessings.

post #18
https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...sed-by-god-to-abraham.523514/#post-1078591009