scourge99
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People can believe whatever they want, even if its flat out wrong.You can't prove that fairies do not exist, and there are people who believe that fairies do exist.
Same can be said for a deity and people who believe in such deity's existence.
Hawking intermixes his personal beliefs with the findings of science. I think that much is obvious. Apparently to others, such intermixing is not obvious.Point is it's really a matter of opinion, and Hawking has stated his opinion.
Yes, I'm aware of what everyone else thinks. I was asking you, Scourage to describe another dimension. Wiki couldn't do it, and neither can you. That's why I asked it.
No, that was an example. My answer was the following:So I'm being tested now? This is your answer?
actually I can having taking courses in Newtonian physics as part of my engineering undergraduate studies.I couldn't calculate it precisely, and neither could you or anyone else
Really? Considering that such a question is "final exam material" I highly doubt you could get an answer without first learning what was taught in much of the course.however, I could get close, close enough is generally accepted as being on the right track.
That not the point. I know you can understand the concept. The problem is you can't perform the calculations which can be EXTREMELY complex and tedious. Even for something as simple as what I asked. By your logic, we shouldn't believe Newtonian physics is true because its "so incredibly complex". As you said:By the way, what makes you think I don't understand these things?
What is the "corner that th believer resides" exactly? Can you elaborate instead of being vague?Where the believer reside..scourge said:What corner is that exactly?Hicup said:Essentially, and the point I was making earlier, is that, the science of theoretical physics is moving in directions that paint it into the same corner that they paint the "believer" into.
Like all scientific theories. They are never "proven", only "supported".Hehe, yes I know, however there are currently teams at the LHC that have a way to "test" String Theory to the extent that, if the experiment delivers a positive result, String Theory will not have been proved, but it will continue as an accepted theory that requires more research.
or be completely discarded.However, if the results are negative, then ST will have to revise some of its tenents.
Then why did you ask me what a dimension above?Although, "crude", at least layman can comprehend what an extra dimension might be, and why we can't perceive it.
Please explain how your analogy is true to REALITY? Do you believe that because you can imagine such a scenario that such a scenario is true?I agree my analogy wasn't an example of a extra dimension, in as much as it was an example of how things can exist in the physical, and not be comprehendable to the observer; in this case the poor little fishy's..
And perhaps Z is the endpoint. Or perhaps Z leads to B and B to C and C is the endpoint. Or perhaps it goes on infinitely or perhaps not. Perhaps "infinite" and "causation" becomes a meaningless questions (such as in "times" before the big bang when there was not time).
Your logic appears to be the following (if not then please correct it):
1) science has discovered answers to previous questions for our origins.
2) questions thus far answered by science create more questions.
3) science has discovered another answer for a previous question and along with it more questions.
4) therefore, there MUST be an infinite regress of scientific questions and answers.
Actually it does move the ball. It moves the ball from X to Y. No, its not the golden "theory of everything" (at least from my understanding M-theory is not such a theory).
Did these attempts to convince you occur on a debate forum or in everyday life?
I disagree with you. In science, those who claim God must prove God, which is why I believe that cartoon fits. And I posted that cartoon in response to another poster saying that God exists and nobody can disprove it. I see this frequently among the religious. Again, that is not the way that the scientific method works. Now, if the claim that God exists is made on faith, that I can buy. "I believe in God because of my faith" is honest. "I believe in God because you can't prove otherwise" is the kind of statement made by those who would make good carnival hucksters.
Well lots of people read the Bible and interpret it in MANY differing and sometimes conflicting ways. Until you present your interpretation I cannot evaluate whether your interpretation conforms to science (the study of nature).
OK. Thank you for the clarification. Its refreshing to actually have someone present their position clearly and concisely rather than resorting to vague and ambiguous analogies and examples,.My logic is the following.
1) Science has discovered that the universe was created by the big bang.
2) We don't know what caused the actual origins of everything
3) Hawking has a theory about how the big bang could have been caused
4) Even if true, that theory only moves us along by a tiny bit toward the question of our actual origin, contrary to the way that most people are interpreting this story.
I agree.If the goal is just to figure out what happened before the big bang, then sure, this helps.
If the goal is to figure out what happened at the beginning, then there's nothing to indicate we're much further along that path.
In my experience, there's a big difference between agnostics and atheists in terms of how they approach the issue.
How do you know there's no such thing as spontaneous creation? And if you use this "argument" that since there can be no "spontaneous creation" then *something* must have created things, then what created that *something* that created everything else? Did "god" come from spontaneous creation? You're using the unlikelihood of spontaneous creation to justify a belief in a being that had to have come into existence via the very thing you say can't happen.
I'm curious to know what you did to verify that you were actually outside your body rather than simply inside your own mind?Having had an N.D.E. in the form of an O.B.E. back in 1984 and I'm still here after 5 heart Attacks I know there is something on the other side or at least the human spirit does not leave with the death of the body.
The argument from design has been dead for quite a long time despite the attempt to resuscitate life into its corpse.Call it God or Mother Nature the case can be made that at some point there had to be some thought given to the seemingly miraculous order in the Universe.
Is the "design" of snowflakes coincidence? Is each "designed" snowflake made by God?Coincident doesn't seem to fit the matrix.
The golden rule has been in existence far before Jesus uttered those words.You don't have to call it religion but if you live by the words attributed to the Man known as Jesus you will lead a better life and remember tha one thing you find in as many as 21 of the worlds more main stream beliefs is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," or words to that effect.
OK. Thank you for the clarification. Its refreshing to actually have someone present their position clearly and concisely rather than resorting to vague and ambiguous analogies and examples,.
I've got no problem with the above argument. I do have a problem with your claim about "turtles all the way down", which you didn't appear to address.
I agree.
Because Hawking didn't present a "theory of everything" then its safe to assume its "turtles all the way down"? That there never will be an explanation or there will always be more questions?
I don't know what there is to say. I'm sorry that Hawking didn't provide a "theory of everything"?
Gonna be brief....
Perhaps someday science will develop technology that can accurately measure and perhaps the English language will some day have words that are adequate to express how ****ing little I care over whether someone believes in God or not.
If one doesn't wish to have their religious pronouncements and preachings challenged, they should not present them on an Internet debate forum.If you do not believe in God, fine. If you do, fine.
What you condemn as "tearing someone else down" is challenge to unsupported theories being presented as though they were true.But I never thought it necessary to build myself up by tearing someone else down.
They have done experiments to test the efficacy of intercessory prayer. All data indicates that prayer is ineffectual and may in fact be harmful.Religion and science happily co-exist in my mind. As I vaguely remember, it was a whole **** load of scientific equipment that saved my ass from dying 10 years ago, so science gets a big :applaud from me. I also remember my priest in the ER saying prayers over me. Big :clap: too. I know that both helped, that's for ****ing sure.
HMS Press Release:The latest study, released Thursday (March 30), was the most extensive. It involved 1,802 coronary artery bypass graft surgery patients from six hospitals who were divided into three groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after learning they might or might not be prayed for by others; 597 did not receive prayer after being told they might or might not receive it; 601 received intercessory prayer after learning they would receive it.
Investigators found that complications occurred in 52 percent of the first group, 51 percent of the second group and 59 percent in the third group.
He said it is possible that patients' knowledge that they were the subject of intercessory prayer "might have induced a form of performance anxiety or made them feel doubtful about their outcome."
scourge99, do you know who first designed the Empire State Building?
I misunderstood your position. I am in full agreement with what you write above.My point in referencing the turtle anecdote is not to argue that there will never be an answer or that there is an infinite sequence of questions, but that given our perspective, we have no idea whether this has measurably moved us along. Because we can't see past this next step, we could be 2 "turtles" away, 400 "turtles" away, or an infinite number of "turtles" away from the answer to our actual origins.
This is one reason I often ignore or take with little trust the reports by the media. The medias priority is to make money, not report truth.I don't expect him to. Again, my main objection is not to what Hawking said, but to the way that people have interpreted his theory (e.g. the headline of the article).
Not off the top of my head, no.scourge99, do you know who first designed the Empire State Building?
Design and construction
A worker bolts beams during construction; the Chrysler Building can be seen in the background.
The Empire State Building was designed by William F. Lamb from the architectural firm Shreve, Lamb and Harmon, which produced the building drawings in just two weeks, using its earlier designs for the Reynolds Building in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and the Carew Tower in Cincinnati, Ohio (designed by the architectural firm W.W. Ahlschlager & Associates) as a basis.[citation needed] Every year the staff of the Empire State Building sends a Father's Day card to the staff at the Reynolds Building in Winston-Salem to pay homage to its role as predecessor to the Empire State Building.[10][11] The building was designed from the top down.[12] The general contractors were The Starrett Brothers and Eken, and the project was financed primarily by John J. Raskob and Pierre S. du Pont. The construction company was chaired by Alfred E. Smith, a former Governor of New York and James Farley's General Builders Supply Corporation supplied the building materials.[13] John W. Bowser was project construction superintendent.[14][15][16]
I see an expanding universe.....If you look up, do you see sky or turtle taint? there's your answer. :2razz:
There is no evidence for fairies therefore fairies (or the Christian God) exist?
We don't know everything there is to know in the universe therefore fairies (or the Christian God) exist?
Gonna be brief....
Perhaps someday science will develop technology that can accurately measure and perhaps the English language will some day have words that are adequate to express how ****ing little I care over whether someone believes in God or not.
If you do not believe in God, fine. If you do, fine. I never thought it necessary to build myself up by tearing someone else down. Religion and science happily co-exist in my mind. As I vaguely remember, it was a whole **** load of scientific equipment that saved my ass from dying 10 years ago, so science gets a big :applaud from me. I also remember my priest in the ER saying prayers over me. Big :clap: too. I know that both helped, that's for ****ing sure.
You haven't the slightest knowledge of my education, formal or otherise. Kindly take your petty ad hominem and shove it up your ass sideways.You haven't the slightest theological education if you think that the Gospels were all written by their respective titles.
Perhaps you shouldn't post in a debate forum if you take offense to reasoned and intelligent criticism of your claims.
You haven't the slightest knowledge of my education, formal or otherise. Kindly take your petty ad hominem and shove it up your ass sideways.You haven't the slightest theological education if you think that the Gospels were all written by their respective titles.
Then defend your claim. Provide epistemological justification for faith. Are you willing and able to do so?No offense taken and never will be because Christians don't have blind faith.
What exactly is verifiable, has been verified?It is faith based on the fact that what is verifiable, has been verified.
And on that basis, we can take the rest on faith.
If you can prove that Christ wasn't crucified and didn't rise from the dead, then I will publicly renounce Christianity as a farce and a false religion.
Its not the job of scientists to prove or disprove the Bible.Science has not disproven anything in the Bible.
In fact, there have been numerous examples where archeologists said the Bible was wrong historically, i.e. No Pontius Pilate, No Sodom or Gomorrah. Then they found the cornerstones bearing the name of Pilate and confirmed that he was Procurator of Judea during the time of Christ. They found the dead cities submerged in the Dead Sea with scorch marks on the stones.
I will be the first to tell you that a higher power of some sort does exist, as evidenced by the fact that there are some things that science cannot explain
How exactly did you arrive at this conclusion?and IMHO, will never be able to explain.
Don't you first have to prove that God exists? Have you ever seen God or heard his voice?No offense taken and never will be because Christians don't have blind faith. It is faith based on the fact that what is verifiable, has been verified. And on that basis, we can take the rest on faith. If you can prove that Christ wasn't crucified and didn't rise from the dead, then I will publicly renounce Christianity as a farce and a false religion.
Science has not disproven anything in the Bible. In fact, there have been numerous examples where archeologists said the Bible was wrong historically, i.e. No Pontius Pilate, No Sodom or Gomorrah. Then they found the cornerstones bearing the name of Pilate and confirmed that he was Procurator of Judea during the time of Christ. They found the dead cities submerged in the Dead Sea with scorch marks on the stones.
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