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Global Warming and Adaptability

That means the US economy fell by 1.7 percent, Africa's economy increased by 30 percent, Asia's economy increased by 44 percent, and middle east economy increased by 57 percent. Yes, CO2 output is a pretty good indicator of your economic well being. Rich people use allot of CO2 as they jet/boat around in their throne rooms, poor people burn cow crap to warm their hut.

Climatologists have had mathematical models to help describe CO2 emissions, and GDP is a variable within the model. It is known that in order for CO2 emissions to decrease in a country, that a country's GDP would have to decrease. But our infinite economic growth paradigm collides with this model. So we continue doing what we are doing, and thus warming the planet.
 
Climatologists have had mathematical models to help describe CO2 emissions, and GDP is a variable within the model. It is known that in order for CO2 emissions to decrease in a country, that a country's GDP would have to decrease. But our infinite economic growth paradigm collides with this model. So we continue doing what we are doing, and thus warming the planet.

That's nice, but I don't want to burn horse crap in my mud hut.
 
A main distinction of this planet is the fact that the atmosphere is NOT in chemical equilibrium. However, all the chemical reactions since they are not in equilibrium move towards chemical equilibrium.

Now, when humanity pumps tonnes of CO2 into the air, this obviously increases the concentration of carbon dioxide emissions. And if any of you people paid attention to high school chemistry, when a concentration of a substance increases, the equilibrium shifts in the opposite direction.

What's the point?

The point is that there is an effect! If it isn't absorbing heat, then it will effect the chemical processes of our atmosphere. To think, "pumping tonnes of CO2 has absolutely no effect on this planet" is just dumb and is thinking of a denialist. During a 2011 survey, 97 percent of climatologists believe that global warming was induced by humanity.

It's called a Negative Feedback Loop, like carbon cycle, and if it didn't exist than this planet would have froze or burned up as soon as the crust cooled billions of years ago. The planet can take it just fine, in fact Carbon is quite essential to life, the more the merrier.
 
The part you are not grasping is that the "error rate" is not and has never been +/- 10 degrees.



Tell a lie often enough...[/QUOTE

You are delusional or disingenuous or flat out lying here Duece. Every time I turn on the news or any nature show all I hear is "Because of global warming, blah blah blah". I NEVER hear "Because theres no such thing as global warming , blah blah blah". The lie you hear over and over is global warming not visa versa, sheeesh I can tell you are an intelligent man, try being honest AND intelligent for a change. Even if you don't consider it to be a lie it IS what you constantly hear. It is an attempt to enact the thought that "everyones saying it so it must be true". It is a form of brainwashing and your brain is WASHED.
 
You are delusional or disingenuous or flat out lying here Duece. Every time I turn on the news or any nature show all I hear is "Because of global warming, blah blah blah". I NEVER hear "Because theres no such thing as global warming , blah blah blah". The lie you hear over and over is global warming not visa versa, sheeesh I can tell you are an intelligent man, try being honest AND intelligent for a change. Even if you don't consider it to be a lie it IS what you constantly hear. It is an attempt to enact the thought that "everyones saying it so it must be true". It is a form of brainwashing and your brain is WASHED.

Really, sawyer? You don't think there's been a lot of push to get media coverage of climate science "scandals?"

Sawyer, I've shown proof of plenty of lies coming from your side of the "debate." There has been a concerted effort to cloud the issue. I'm not talking about arguments that result from poor understanding or poor logic, I'm talking about things that are outright fabricated.

Take, for example, this graph: (since we're sortof on the topic of temperature projections)


Lord Christopher Monckton, hero of the climate skeptics, puts this graph in his presentation as proof that temperature projections are wrong, because real temperatures are below projections.
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Here's the problem: He made it up. It's fake. The first red flag for you should be the fact that he draws a linear trend. Nobody predicts linear trends in temperature, because if we keep adding CO2 to the atmosphere faster and faster warming would accelerate, right?

This is not the only lie Monckton tells, and this is a man who testifies before our congress as a so-called expert on climate science. And he's lying to them.

Then you have things like "sea ice is rebounding" and "global warming stopped in 1995," things that are also provably false but go round and round the climate skeptic circles.

Remember that CERN experiment that skeptics hailed as proof it was all cosmic rays? "CERN: Cosmic rays, not CO2, drive climate" was the headline of the article paraded around here. The writer of the article (a lawyer from a libertarian think tank) talked about how this NEW STUDY from the SCIENTISTS AT CERN says etc etc... except the paper said nothing of the sort. The paper didn't say that because the writer wasn't a climatologist, he didn't mention climate at all.

Then there's that site with all the fancy math, you know the one, with that weird spiral-notebook-looking background. It supposedly proves that man-made CO2 is only responsible for like .28% of global warming. Except the guy conveniently forgets an entire half of the carbon cycle: the part where plants absorb CO2 as they grow and remove enormous amounts of carbon from the atmosphere.

Put it up against the so-called evidence of corruption that your side brings up: "Climategate." (and it's sequel: Climategate 2: Mostly the same emails again with the same suspicious timing) Why do you suppose it is that people don't post the emails in their entirety along with the rest of the conversation? Why do we get just one or two sentences clipped out and pasted into a Daily Mail article? Remember that line about changing peer review? How come nobody posted the whole conversation, which makes it blindingly obvious that the scientists didn't want to suppress the paper because it disagreed with them, but rather that they think it should never have been published in the first place because it was full of glaring scientific flaws?

You never did that, did you sawyer? When you read about those emails. Self-assessment question for you: did you check out the full context yourself or did you let some news article or blog interpret the emails for you?
 
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You are deflecting by bringing up some obscure graph you dug up somewhere. I am talking about the daily bombardment of the mass media that man made global warming is undisputed fact and it is causing , blah blah blah. As for envirogate, it was glossed over by 99% of the media and yes I read all the emails I could stomach and made up my own mind. Now a group of there peers has said they did nothing wrong,it was alot like sending a coyote accused of killing chickens to a jury of coyotes, the decision is obvious.
 
You are deflecting by bringing up some obscure graph you dug up somewhere. I am talking about the daily bombardment of the mass media that man made global warming is undisputed fact and it is causing , blah blah blah. As for envirogate, it was glossed over by 99% of the media and yes I read all the emails I could stomach and made up my own mind. Now a group of there peers has said they did nothing wrong,it was alot like sending a coyote accused of killing chickens to a jury of coyotes, the decision is obvious.

Hah, if you had read all of the emails you'd know that "peer review" line was nowhere near what the right-wing media portrayed it to be.

Similarly, the "trick" to "hide the decline" wasn't a reference to a decline in global temperatures. In fact, that email specifically mentioned splicing in real temperatures to hide the decline, indicating that the "decline" was something other than temperatures!

What the decline actually was: an apparent decline in global temperatures as indicated by one of the temperature proxies. (tree ring reconstructions) There is a well-known and well-publicized discrepancy with tree rings in high northern lattitudes after about 1960 - the temperatures track known temperatures and other temperature proxies just fine before then, but after 1960 they diverge and show a temperature drop that didn't happen. As for being "hidden," the report this all occurs in doesn't actually hide it, it is mentioned specifically and there are several published papers on the subject. The word "trick" does not always imply deception. I learned the trick to juggling a few years back. In a scientific context, the word "trick" is used regularly as a reference to something "neat" or "clever."

Now, as far as the media goes, your perception is clouded by your own bias. The media most certainly does not "constantly bombard" people with an "undisputed fact," there is talk about the disputed science constantly. Controversy sells. Interesting note: Climategate got a lot of media attention. Those "groups of peers" doing the investigation found no evidence of fraud. Those investigations got virtually no media attention.

By the way, some of those investigations were by groups of independent reviewers. This blanket rejection of investigations on your part shows your own brainwashing quite clearly: you have your opinion, and anyone who investigates the matter and concludes otherwise is outright dismissed. There were, what, nine investigations now? But no, your gut says there was fraud. So there was fraud.

Now, one thing I need to ask you:

Who the hell cares what the media says? They're evil-biased-liberals, right? So don't listen to the media. Don't listen to spokesmen. Don't listen to politicians. They are not scientists.
 
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There are mounds of scientific evidence to show we are having a negative impact. This isn't about interpreting data. This is about spending money. And it is the saddest thing I have ever had to witness. I suppose the planet will be okay though, with or without us.
 
There are mounds of scientific evidence to show we are having a negative impact. This isn't about interpreting data. This is about spending money. And it is the saddest thing I have ever had to witness. I suppose the planet will be okay though, with or without us.

Poor planet. *wipes tear from eye*
 
Poor planet. *wipes tear from eye*

I am assuming that was sarcastic.

And that is part of the problem. People just don't care. They would rather have a sports car over a milky way night sky. People automatically assume that if we transition to other technologies, that we will be living in the stone age, even when considering producing energy with no emissions is actually an increase in technology! I read up on why people do this, why they only put value themselves. Part of it is culture, but part of it is to escape pain. If a person (like me) who values the conditions of our natural planet, sees something like the BP Oil spill in The Gulf of Mexico, I experience much more internal pain compared to someone who just cares about themselves. It is a natural tendency, but I refuse to give up responsibility to our very home.

Why do people not respect one of the few planets in our known universe that has the conditions for life? (I heard scientists just found a planet in the habitual zone of another star, I think that is what it is called) Why do we refuse to respect our planet? Material wealth? Does that bother anyone?
 
There are mounds of scientific evidence to show we are having a negative impact. This isn't about interpreting data. This is about spending money. And it is the saddest thing I have ever had to witness. I suppose the planet will be okay though, with or without us.

Kurt Vonnegut spoke to this ~ "I was taught that the human brain was the crowning glory of evolution so far, but I think it's a very poor scheme for survival."
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Hah, if you had read all of the emails you'd know that "peer review" line was nowhere near what the right-wing media portrayed it to be.

Similarly, the "trick" to "hide the decline" wasn't a reference to a decline in global temperatures. In fact, that email specifically mentioned splicing in real temperatures to hide the decline, indicating that the "decline" was something other than temperatures!

What the decline actually was: an apparent decline in global temperatures as indicated by one of the temperature proxies. (tree ring reconstructions) There is a well-known and well-publicized discrepancy with tree rings in high northern lattitudes after about 1960 - the temperatures track known temperatures and other temperature proxies just fine before then, but after 1960 they diverge and show a temperature drop that didn't happen. As for being "hidden," the report this all occurs in doesn't actually hide it, it is mentioned specifically and there are several published papers on the subject. The word "trick" does not always imply deception. I learned the trick to juggling a few years back. In a scientific context, the word "trick" is used regularly as a reference to something "neat" or "clever."

Now, as far as the media goes, your perception is clouded by your own bias. The media most certainly does not "constantly bombard" people with an "undisputed fact," there is talk about the disputed science constantly. Controversy sells. Interesting note: Climategate got a lot of media attention. Those "groups of peers" doing the investigation found no evidence of fraud. Those investigations got virtually no media attention.

By the way, some of those investigations were by groups of independent reviewers. This blanket rejection of investigations on your part shows your own brainwashing quite clearly: you have your opinion, and anyone who investigates the matter and concludes otherwise is outright dismissed. There were, what, nine investigations now? But no, your gut says there was fraud. So there was fraud.

Now, one thing I need to ask you:

Who the hell cares what the media says? They're evil-biased-liberals, right? So don't listen to the media. Don't listen to spokesmen. Don't listen to politicians. They are not scientists.

Again you deflect and try to change the subject when you are caught red handed in an obviously false statement, it is the standard lib tactic. Your statement "repeat a lie often enough they believe it" was a knee jerk reaction you had not thought through before posting and I called you on it. No big deal we all do it sometimes but I would have more respect for you if you manned up and admitted it instead of running away like a little girl. I am sure my respect for you means nothing and really should not so at least do it for self respect. From my perspective I would enjoy debating at least one enviro lib with some integrity and guts.
 
Again you deflect and try to change the subject when you are caught red handed in an obviously false statement, it is the standard lib tactic. Your statement "repeat a lie often enough they believe it" was a knee jerk reaction you had not thought through before posting and I called you on it. No big deal we all do it sometimes but I would have more respect for you if you manned up and admitted it instead of running away like a little girl. I am sure my respect for you means nothing and really should not so at least do it for self respect. From my perspective I would enjoy debating at least one enviro lib with some integrity and guts.

Um, when I said that I was referring to the lies being told by your side. Clearly they are having an effect.

My statement wasn't false. You're only interpreting it that way because from your perspective, your side is not lying. (despite the proof that they do) I still stand by what I said. Your side of this debate has made a concerted effort to cloud this issue by spreading proven lies and this is having an effect on public opinion. Probably because it's faster and simpler to make up a lie than it is to debunk it. (see previous list of debunked lies, most of which you probably stilll believe to be the truth)

Anytime, anywhere, sawyer. I'll have a scientific debate on the subject. I'm not going to indulge in unsupported conspiracy theories. If you just dismiss the evidence I present as being falsified by some scientific conspiracy, it's not a debate anymore. Let me know.

Integrity and guts? Yeah, let's see if you have the guts to have a reasonable debate on the science. Show me some actual evidence of something, not faulty logic like "planet warmed before, therefore man cannot warm planet."
 
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The search for an honest forthright lib to discuss issues with continues.
Which part of my statement are you saying is false? That your side of the argument lies or that it has an effect on public opinion?

Unless you're just going to backpedal from that offer to have an honest debate, I mean. Of course, if you actually wanted an honest debate you wouldn't use your little right-wing insults like "lib" or talk about how it's all a religion. That isn't something honest debaters do.
 
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The climate of the earth has changed dramatically before there were any humans. Why we should believe that if we eliminate the Global Warming cause by human activity that the climate will stop changing? Seems that adaptation to climate change by the human race is the more rational approach to it, since we practically don’t have other choices.
 
The climate of the earth has changed dramatically before there were any humans. Why we should believe that if we eliminate the Global Warming cause by human activity that the climate will stop changing? Seems that adaptation to climate change by the human race is the more rational approach to it, since we practically don’t have other choices.

You shouldn't believe this and nobody is arguing this in the first place.

Rather, the argument is that we should try not to alter the natural variation, and certainly we should not accelerate the natural variation. Faster changes tend to go worse for the various forms of life on the planet - life can only adapt so fast.

Some day, probably a long time from now, we may know enough to try our hand at geoengineering to stabilize the planet's climate. Stable is good. However, right now it is foolish for us to try and alter the planet... and yet that's exactly what we are doing.
 
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You shouldn't believe this and nobody is arguing this in the first place.

Rather, the argument is that we should try not to alter the natural variation, and certainly we should not accelerate the natural variation. Faster changes tend to go worse for the various forms of life on the planet - life can only adapt so fast.

Some day, probably a long time from now, we may know enough to try our hand at geoengineering to stabilize the planet's climate. Stable is good. However, right now it is foolish for us to try and alter the planet... and yet that's exactly what we are doing.
What mankind can do about solar flares? The flares have a much greater effect on climate change than anything man has ever done. What about the time when dinosaurs walked on a tropical earth? What about the ice age? What about the mini-ice age we are just came out of? Very little can be done about these changes.
 
What mankind can do about solar flares? The flares have a much greater effect on climate change than anything man has ever done. What about the time when dinosaurs walked on a tropical earth? What about the ice age? What about the mini-ice age we are just came out of? Very little can be done about these changes.

Which is why no one is trying to change natural occurrences. What the scientists have determined is that we are polluting our environment and it will have a negative effect on plant an animal life. The question is can the majority needed for the political will to take action be educated quickly enough to prevent real hardship and economic failure.
 
What mankind can do about solar flares? The flares have a much greater effect on climate change than anything man has ever done. What about the time when dinosaurs walked on a tropical earth? What about the ice age? What about the mini-ice age we are just came out of? Very little can be done about these changes.

What about them? Just because climate changes naturally doesn't mean we should just go and blindly alter the climate, right?
 
Volcanic eruptions have an effect on the climate since their “green house gases” reach the highest levels of the atmosphere, but contributions from human activity are small by comparison and are released near the surface where they can be absorbed by the plants, deposited as lime-rich sediment or consumed by natural buffers in the environment.
 
Volcanic eruptions have an effect on the climate since their “green house gases” reach the highest levels of the atmosphere, but contributions from human activity are small by comparison and are released near the surface where they can be absorbed by the plants, deposited as lime-rich sediment or consumed by natural buffers in the environment.

Human activity releases far more greenhouse gases than volcanic activity does.

As for reaching different levels of atmosphere, I haven't seen any research that says this is terribly important. Or that it even happens. (most volcanic activity is not the violent eruptions that reach the upper atmosphere, and gases naturally circulate and spread out kindof evenly)
 
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