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Gas prices are too low

Kandahar

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You heard me correctly. Gas prices are too low. It'd be wonderful if they hit $5 or $6 next year, but even $4 would be good. I'm a libertarian, but this is the one tax that our government needs to increase...and increase heavily.

Why? Because oil is now THE biggest issue of national security. We MUST wean ourselves from oil as soon as possible, and the only way to do that is by creating an economic environment where alternative forms of energy become cost effective (read: high oil prices). If people are paying high prices for oil, they will soon tire of it and demand more fuel-efficient vehicles.

While government should increase oil tax, it must also begin a "Manhattan Project" to develop these alternative fuels. I know that this would not be as efficient or as cost-effective as letting the private sector do it...but the private sector is moving too slowly. This is NOT simply an economic issue; it's a national security issue. It's no coincidence that Iran and Venezuela grow more belligerent as oil prices rise. If we neutralize their primary weapon against us, we wouldn't need to care any more about their internal affairs than we do about Africa's. While not caring about their affairs is indeed sad from a human rights perspective, it is a very wise national security policy. This would free up a great deal of American military resources, to be brought home, to protect American dominance in East Asia, or to deal with the nations with the most pressing human rights issues (as opposed to the OPEC nations that simply make the most noise).

I'm not saying this would be easy; it wouldn't. Under this plan, Americans would almost certainly have to tighten their belts to pay for gasoline over the next few years, and perhaps reduce their gasoline consumption. We have grown accustomed to not having to make any sacrifices for anything, no matter what problems the world faces. This must change, and it really isn't that big of a sacrifice considering what most other generations of Americans have had to do during times of war.
 

gordontravels

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This is one of the most on point posts I have read in years. Uh oh; slow down Gordon. I only see one major problem.

We need the research you speak of now; actually years ago. Even hybrid cars are being built now (SUV's) that are only "green" and not any more fuel efficient than their guzzling cousins. Europe and Britain have paid much higher prices than us for years but then they have mass transit systems that just won't work in this country. We may have large populations centers on the coasts but the center of the country is spread out if you've ever driven through Texas, Wyoming, the Dakotas or much of the American Southwest. Buses don't work in rural America.

I've often thought how the oil rich countries would just be waiting for a Chavez to come along but our oil independence wouldn't really change that because the world's economy would still need petroleum products for nearly everything our world consumes. Take a long look at that Wal-Mart bag. Still, we could get it down to self sufficiency if need be.

The idea of people just driving less doesn't work everywhere. Just as people sit in traffic burning fuel in Los Angeles, many others such as our country's truckers and the rural population still needs cost effective transportation. Our cities and interstates are already built.

So, WHERE ARE THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS??? Really, can you tell me all you "yell at each other conservatives and liberals". Where are your politicians? What are they doing about the oil dependency we hear about. Some want to drill so we have more to burn without a word to conservation and some don't want us to drill without a word to conservation.

Where is the 55 mile per hour speed limit? Where are the odd and even days for fuel? Where are the 50, 75 or 100 mile per gallon cars that we could be building? Where are our politicians who don't have to worry about gas mileage or the cost of a gallon UNLESS THEY WANT TO BE RE-ELECTED?

Good post Kandahar. I'd buy you a dark rich cup of coffee and talk with you. Your post was sure worth the time to read.
:duel :cool:
 

scottyz

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gordontravels said:
Where are the 50, 75 or 100 mile per gallon cars that we could be building? Where are our politicians who don't have to worry about gas mileage or the cost of a gallon UNLESS THEY WANT TO BE RE-ELECTED?

Good post Kandahar. I'd buy you a dark rich cup of coffee and talk with you. Your post was sure worth the time to read.
:duel :cool:
Honda and Toyota both offer hybrids that will achieve 50-60mpg. Perhaps you could get more but the car would be so slow it would be dangerous to drive it in traffic.
 

MrFungus420

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If you're that concerned about mileage, buy a diesel. I had a diesel VW Rabbit in the early to mid 1980's, 45 city, 65 highway. Comfortable, safe, dependable and economical, what more could you want?
 

taxpayer

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So let me get this straight!
You want to punish Americans with $5-$6.00 gas prices and $4-$5.00 HOME HEATING OIL to get our GOV and the automakers to provide us with alternative vehicles that they should be doing anyway???


In Bushs energy speech a few weeks ago he made NO mention of demanding HIGHER gas mileage from the Auto makers.

People just have to realise that the money hungry RICH loving President and congress that we have now do not want to and will NOT do anything about this problem!


BTW: European and other countrys pay $4-$5.00 a gallon for gas, BUT that includes $2-$3.00 in taxes!!!
 

gordontravels

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taxpayer said:
So let me get this straight!
You want to punish Americans with $5-$6.00 gas prices and $4-$5.00 HOME HEATING OIL to get our GOV and the automakers to provide us with alternative vehicles that they should be doing anyway???


In Bushs energy speech a few weeks ago he made NO mention of demanding HIGHER gas mileage from the Auto makers.

People just have to realise that the money hungry RICH loving President and congress that we have now do not want to and will NOT do anything about this problem!


BTW: European and other countrys pay $4-$5.00 a gallon for gas, BUT that includes $2-$3.00 in taxes!!!
Actually you need to stop worrying about a president you don't like and extend your self-education. The president has called on Congress to step up the CAFE standards for all vehicles in company fleets. This was some weeks ago and since the "rich loving" you point out so well in your partisanship must mean Republicans, you should understand what higher fuel prices really mean.

Let's say the Republicans are in the pocket of big business. I'm sure you enjoy that proposed thought. DuPont Chemical just announced price increases on over 35,000 of it's products because it is being hurt by those very fuel and oil prices. As many as 58% of CEO's say they plan on raising prices in the next year to try to keep up with higher costs brought about by the cost of oil. Look around your supermarket; from the wrap on cheese to the plastic containers in the deli to the bags you haul your groceries home in, oil is necessary in the manufacturing of everything. Can you spell Aloe Vera?

Your car? Upholstry, tires, dash, knobs, hoses, belts, nothing is exempt from the need for oil in the manufacturing process and the fuels to run the metal fabrication machines. Baby buggies, refridgerators, plumbing pipes, roofing tiles; anything you manufacture needs oil and fuel products.

Europe has been paying in the $5.00 range for petrol for years but I wasn't calling for higher prices to spur fuel economy. I was calling on the Democrats and Republicans. Where are the Democrats that have a voice in Congress as if the media wouldn't let you know if they have something to say? Where are the Republicans that take those ideas and set the agenda. Are these Democrats and Republicans working for us or not. Probably not. I's bi-partisan waste and Democrats and Republicans are so good at it.

If you want to get this country moving for the benefit of all of us then it's important to realize that Democrats and Republicans aren't going away. They simply need to learn to work together and quit worrying about 06 or 08 and get their butts to work in 05. Partisanship feeds less done on our behalf by promoting self promotion. We should expect our representatives to work for us now, regardless the party.
:duel :cool:
 

Kandahar

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taxpayer said:
So let me get this straight!
You want to punish Americans with $5-$6.00 gas prices and $4-$5.00 HOME HEATING OIL to get our GOV and the automakers to provide us with alternative vehicles that they should be doing anyway???
It's not a matter of punishing Americans, it's a matter of setting the proper economic climate. You say that the automakers "should be doing this anyway." Well, at the present time they don't really have much incentive to do so. If you were the CEO of Ford, why would you spend billions of dollars on R&D for hybrid or hydrogen cars, when you could instead spend that billions of dollars on automobiles that you *know* will sell? The only solution is to convince the auto manufacturers that there WILL be a demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles, because of the high price of fuel.


taxpayer said:
In Bushs energy speech a few weeks ago he made NO mention of demanding HIGHER gas mileage from the Auto makers.
Of course not. He's not about to anger the oil lobby, which contributes lots of money to his campaign.

taxpayer said:
People just have to realise that the money hungry RICH loving President and congress that we have now do not want to and will NOT do anything about this problem!


BTW: European and other countrys pay $4-$5.00 a gallon for gas, BUT that includes $2-$3.00 in taxes!!!
You're right. But what you don't mention is that this WORKS. As a result of high prices caused by high gasoline taxes, Europeans are more cautious about the amount of energy they waste. The relatively low prices in the United States and Canada are the primary reason that our nations are the most wasteful in the entire world.
 

gordontravels

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Kandahar said:
It's not a matter of punishing Americans, it's a matter of setting the proper economic climate. You say that the automakers "should be doing this anyway." Well, at the present time they don't really have much incentive to do so. If you were the CEO of Ford, why would you spend billions of dollars on R&D for hybrid or hydrogen cars, when you could instead spend that billions of dollars on automobiles that you *know* will sell? The only solution is to convince the auto manufacturers that there WILL be a demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles, because of the high price of fuel.




Of course not. He's not about to anger the oil lobby, which contributes lots of money to his campaign.



You're right. But what you don't mention is that this WORKS. As a result of high prices caused by high gasoline taxes, Europeans are more cautious about the amount of energy they waste. The relatively low prices in the United States and Canada are the primary reason that our nations are the most wasteful in the entire world.
You're still ignoring the geography of our nation and how spread out our population really is. Part of our problem could be the 48 states instead of the limited number of countries such as in Europe. It does no good for Colorado and Utah to unite to provide transportation alternatives unless Florida, New York and California are a part of the equation. It has already been proven that our Amtrak system is a dinosaur waiting for the next comet to fall from the sky.

I've often thought that we should have state regional groups to move our country forward. Six groups of 8 states each to work as a consortium and develop energy and transportation goals. Our federal government is saddled by Republicans and Democrats and only see their state even if on a committee. That committee takes something to the floor and it gets shot down because it left out Nebraska and Kansas while petting New York and California. Two Senators and a two party system can do that; impede progress because of politics.

Maybe a regional states group system should be considered or a mix of states with opposing problems. There must be some way to get Republicans and Democrats to work together or at least to work in the first place.
:duel :cool:
 

Kandahar

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gordontravels said:
You're still ignoring the geography of our nation and how spread out our population really is. Part of our problem could be the 48 states instead of the limited number of countries such as in Europe. It does no good for Colorado and Utah to unite to provide transportation alternatives unless Florida, New York and California are a part of the equation. It has already been proven that our Amtrak system is a dinosaur waiting for the next comet to fall from the sky.
I realize that the European and American situation aren't exactly the same, since America is much more sparsely populated. However, we CAN learn something from the Europeans in terms of energy efficiency. Most Americans, I think, would be able to find plenty of ways to cut their energy expenditures if gasoline was more expensive. Even if we couldn't drive less because of the larger distances from Point A to Point B in the United States than in Europe, we could certainly demand more fuel-efficient vehicles, solar panels for our homes, and/or new nuclear power plants. Europe has managed to do this for years, and I think America could learn a lot from their approach even though the situations are not entirely comparable.

gordontravels said:
I've often thought that we should have state regional groups to move our country forward. Six groups of 8 states each to work as a consortium and develop energy and transportation goals. Our federal government is saddled by Republicans and Democrats and only see their state even if on a committee. That committee takes something to the floor and it gets shot down because it left out Nebraska and Kansas while petting New York and California. Two Senators and a two party system can do that; impede progress because of politics.

Maybe a regional states group system should be considered or a mix of states with opposing problems. There must be some way to get Republicans and Democrats to work together or at least to work in the first place.
Amen. Most senators seem oblivious to the fact that they're representing the entire country in addition to their home state. Your grouping idea sounds like it would be great, because it would encourage consensus-building as opposed to political grandstanding. Whichever groups came up with a compromise that was acceptable to everyone would look a lot better in the public eye than those groups that engaged in petty bickering.
 

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We pay £0.95 per litre in UK which is around $8 dollars per gallon becuase our tax on gas is 66%.
US is 5% of world population but produces 25% of greenhouse gases !
Your fuel is to cheap.
The government will take tax off you one way or another, so it may as well be tax on something that encourages better use of a declining resource & lower greenhouse emissions by driving more fuel efficient cars.
Unless of course one is of the opinion that fuel shortages & greater numbers of hurricanes are desirable.
 
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taxpayer

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gordontravels said:
Actually you need to stop worrying about a president you don't like and extend your self-education. The president has called on Congress to step up the CAFE standards for all vehicles in company fleets. This was some weeks ago and since the "rich loving" you point out so well in your partisanship must mean Republicans, you should understand what higher fuel prices really mean.

Let's say the Republicans are in the pocket of big business. I'm sure you enjoy that proposed thought. DuPont Chemical just announced price increases on over 35,000 of it's products because it is being hurt by those very fuel and oil prices. As many as 58% of CEO's say they plan on raising prices in the next year to try to keep up with higher costs brought about by the cost of oil. Look around your supermarket; from the wrap on cheese to the plastic containers in the deli to the bags you haul your groceries home in, oil is necessary in the manufacturing of everything. Can you spell Aloe Vera?

Your car? Upholstry, tires, dash, knobs, hoses, belts, nothing is exempt from the need for oil in the manufacturing process and the fuels to run the metal fabrication machines. Baby buggies, refridgerators, plumbing pipes, roofing tiles; anything you manufacture needs oil and fuel products.

Europe has been paying in the $5.00 range for petrol for years but I wasn't calling for higher prices to spur fuel economy. I was calling on the Democrats and Republicans. Where are the Democrats that have a voice in Congress as if the media wouldn't let you know if they have something to say? Where are the Republicans that take those ideas and set the agenda. Are these Democrats and Republicans working for us or not. Probably not. I's bi-partisan waste and Democrats and Republicans are so good at it.

If you want to get this country moving for the benefit of all of us then it's important to realize that Democrats and Republicans aren't going away. They simply need to learn to work together and quit worrying about 06 or 08 and get their butts to work in 05. Partisanship feeds less done on our behalf by promoting self promotion. We should expect our representatives to work for us now, regardless the party.
:duel :cool:
xxxxxxxxxx
Maybe YOU should extend your self-education.

Bush called on congress to step up the CAFE standards "AFTER" his televised speech and "AFTER" he took some heat for NOT mentioning anything about it in his nationaly televised speech.

YA YA YA! I know all about all the other products that depend on oil. So why don't you ask all those other companys to become less dependent on oil to manufacture their products and HIKE their price of OIL and NOT jack their products prices up because of it?

Anyway:
"Y-E-S" I AGREE 100%, the Dems and Repubs BOTH need to get together with this MAJOR problem.
We AIN'T seen "NOTIN" yet! Wait a few weeks when people will be choosing between heating their houses and eating at the current prices never mind after your proposed RAISING of the "oil tax".
 

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oil president for teh win!
 

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Kandahar said:
It's not a matter of punishing Americans, it's a matter of setting the proper economic climate. You say that the automakers "should be doing this anyway." Well, at the present time they don't really have much incentive to do so. If you were the CEO of Ford, why would you spend billions of dollars on R&D for hybrid or hydrogen cars, when you could instead spend that billions of dollars on automobiles that you *know* will sell? The only solution is to convince the auto manufacturers that there WILL be a demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles, because of the high price of fuel.
xxxxxxxxxx

Well it sure looks like they should have. Just about all of the car manufactures here are going broke. Didn't GM just file chapter 11 or what ever chapter.
And most auto manufactures bonds are now rated as JUNK bonds.

HOWEVER these auto companys will get a NO OR LOW interest bail out by our Gov and they know that, thats why they will wait until the last minute to give us some good mileage vehicles. Can we get that same NO or LOW interest rate from our Gov for our gas and heating oil? After all its OUR tax money too.

The Auto companys NEVER really gave us Americans a choice now, did they??? Where are all the alternative vehicles that we had a chance to choose from?
xxxxxxxxxxxx



Of course not. He's not about to anger the oil lobby, which contributes lots of money to his campaign.
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Agreed! LOL!
xxxxxxxxxxxx



You're right. But what you don't mention is that this WORKS. As a result of high prices caused by high gasoline taxes, Europeans are more cautious about the amount of energy they waste. The relatively low prices in the United States and Canada are the primary reason that our nations are the most wasteful in the entire world.
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
So you want to put Americans that unlike Europeans we have the WORSE public transportation system out of any 1st world country and have to travel 50+ miles a day to go to work into a bunch of little unsafe JUNKS like they drive?
xxxxxxxxxx
Any way, I hear you and your not all wrong!
 

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And besides:
If we were NOT taxed to death by our crooked big three relatives, Gov-Uncle Sam)---(State-Uncle Joe)---(Local Governments -Uncle Bob) we would probably not even be worried about gas being at $4.00 a gallon, but thats another story.
 

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Snoozin said:
Those evil :devil: SUV's? So what are you driving?

Also I found this interesting on your source?


Yes the back window hatch does read "Just Married to the pump", this all goes to show you that evironmental issues can be solved by acting like teenagers, and writing with window paint can save the environment?
 
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Snoozin

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stsburns said:
Those evil :devil: SUV's? So what are you driving?

Also I found this interesting on your source?


Yes the back window hatch does read "Just Married to the pump", this all goes to show you that evironmental issues can be solved by acting like teenagers, and writing with window paint can save the environment?
I drive a Civic.

I'm just in favor of responsible consumption of nonsustainable fuel sources, and *not* in favor of US reliance on KSA oil.

Think of the window paint as a public awareness campaign. ;)
 

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Snoozin said:
I drive a Civic.

I'm just in favor of responsible consumption of nonsustainable fuel sources, and *not* in favor of US reliance on KSA oil.

Think of the window paint as a public awareness campaign. ;)
Is your civic modified? Have any pics? I believe I read in my last issue of Car and Driver, that Honda's get 40 mpg or more! Yea but we all need them no matter how much we dislike using them? We would like to get more of our own oil but sometimes other environmental groups conflict with those interests. About the paint, couldn't they just buy billboards? It would seem more effective? Everyone can see the Billboard, and they will see when they are driving?
 

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stsburns said:
Is your civic modified? Have any pics? I believe I read in my last issue of Car and Driver, that Honda's get 40 mpg or more! Yea but we all need them no matter how much we dislike using them? We would like to get more of our own oil but sometimes other environmental groups conflict with those interests. About the paint, couldn't they just buy billboards? It would seem more effective? Everyone can see the Billboard, and they will see when they are driving?
modified civic? :lol:

Wasn't it Reagan that decided we should get our oil from the Saudis?
 

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stsburns said:
Is your civic modified? Have any pics? I believe I read in my last issue of Car and Driver, that Honda's get 40 mpg or more! Yea but we all need them no matter how much we dislike using them? We would like to get more of our own oil but sometimes other environmental groups conflict with those interests. About the paint, couldn't they just buy billboards? It would seem more effective? Everyone can see the Billboard, and they will see when they are driving?
LOL. It's just a regular Civic 5-speed sedan. I get a raft of sh** every day when I pull into the lot, parking next to the Hummers and BMWs and Saabs.

I get 40mph. I drive all highway so I don't think a hybrid would be any better for me.

I actually don't know a lot about that website, was looking for a pic of my *one less SUV* sticker. I'm just kind of happy that gas prices are making many drivers of gas-guzzlers think twice about their vehicles. If bought for purpose and function, fine. If bought for status, not-so-fine.
 

Kandahar

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scottyz said:
Wasn't it Reagan that decided we should get our oil from the Saudis?
I don't think anyone ever really "decided" that. The Saudis just happen to have a lot of oil and a relatively stable government.
 

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scottyz said:
Wasn't it Reagan that decided we should get our oil from the Saudis?
Kandahar said:
I don't think anyone ever really "decided" that. The Saudis just happen to have a lot of oil and a relatively stable government.
Decisions became official under FDR...
 

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Kandahar said:
I don't think anyone ever really "decided" that. The Saudis just happen to have a lot of oil and a relatively stable government.
A relatively stable dictatorship with an atrocious record of human rights violations. :(
 

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cnredd said:
Decisions became official under FDR...
It was Reagan who ended the last U.S. oil boom by cementing ties with SA and giving them a bunch of money...
 

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what about all the gas and natural resources in alaska?
we have more then enough, only we dont like using our own stuff, we want to leech out everything from the middle east first.
thats how the next world war will start, lack of energy in every contry but america. as soon as the oil in the middle east runs out(which will probably happen soon) and america is the only place to get gasoline and oil from, the games over.

We Win
 
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