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Forget After Life, What About Before Life???

DarkWizard12 said:
It depends on what kind of atheist you ask. Some follow M-theory, and claim there were only these cosmic membranes that interacted and caused one(maybe several) big bangs across the dimensions.

Other atheist would say that, before, there was only the speck of the universe, held together by the combination of all forces. Still, others, would say that the universe has been "created" many many times over and over again, and this it may have been present 100 billion years ago.

A religious man would tell you that, before, there was only God, and to wonder what was before creation is entirely fruitless. You can believe what you want about God, but indeed, to think of the 'universe' before creation....the big bang, if you will....is entirely fruitless. No amount of technology could ever answer the question, even if certain aspects of string theory happen to be confirmed in the future.
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Why is it any more "fruitless" to think about what might have been 100 billion or more years ago than to think about 100 billion+ years into the future?

Other than man's mind is only capable of so much, and time in terms of billions of years is truly mind-blowing.

To think that maybe what we know as "the universe" might go through expansion and contraction cycles, and that the 13-ish billion years we know of might be just one of 100's or millions of cycles it's been through boggles the mind in so many ways.

But it's as possible as "god created it".
 
Dragonfly said:
Why is it any more "fruitless" to think about what might have been 100 billion or more years ago than to think about 100 billion+ years into the future?

Other than man's mind is only capable of so much, and time in terms of billions of years is truly mind-blowing.

To think that maybe what we know as "the universe" might go through expansion and contraction cycles, and that the 13-ish billion years we know of might be just one of 100's or millions of cycles it's been through boggles the mind in so many ways.

But it's as possible as "god created it".
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Because we can control the outcome of the future. We cannot control the outcome of the past....unless you invent a time machine. Either way though, that's not really relevant. The idea of the universe having a beginning is equally agreed upon now(whether or not the details of it are). The future however....some scientists say the universe will continue expanding until all that's left is a dark, cold, sub-particle field interactions.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Because we can control the outcome of the future. We cannot control the outcome of the past....unless you invent a time machine. Either way though, that's not really relevant. The idea of the universe having a beginning is equally agreed upon now(whether or not the details of it are). The future however....some scientists say the universe will continue expanding until all that's left is a dark, cold, sub-particle field interactions.
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The best laid plans o' mice and men aft gang agley.- Burns
 
zyzygy said:
The best laid plans o' mice and men aft gang agley.- Burns
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Nice non-thinking mumbo-jumbo to an interesting point I made, but whatever. I'll wait until someone says something smart.
 
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DarkWizard12 said:
In the words of Obama "Yes, we can" although, we would have to choose to do so.
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Please give me an example of how we can control the outcome of something that will happen 200 years from now.

If man can control the future, then why have so many horrible things in the past happened?

Why didn't man "control" those things from happening?
 
Dragonfly said:
Please give me an example of how we can control the outcome of something that will happen 200 years from now.
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Well, for example, if you don't want great-great-great grandchildren in 200 years, all you would have to do is get a vasectomy. There, you controlled the outcome.
If man can control the future, then why have so many horrible things in the past happened?

Why didn't man "control" those things from happening?
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Because human nature isn't entirely good. Caligula, for example, wanted the short term gain of enjoying people's suffering, rather than the long term gain of, say, investing in his empire's economy.
 
zyzygy said:
You are not familiar with Burn's poem? It addresses the point about controlling the future very well. I am sure that Burns was thinking when he wrote it. He was a smart man.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43816/to-a-mouse-56d222ab36e33
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At least dragonfly asks questions, however elementary, to understand the context. You already assume(wrongly) that you know what I meant, and then proceeded to twist my words because of it. Sorry but, there is nothing to discuss with you. Keep your ignorance, it suits you.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Well, for example, if you don't want great-great-great grandchildren in 200 years, all you would have to do is get a vasectomy. There, you controlled the outcome.
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Suppose I want 400 great-great-great grandchildren, but after producing a handful of my own children they all decide to never have children of their own?

How could you control that one of your offspring doesn't become the next "most deadly mass-murderer"?

How can you prevent yourself from being a victim of an accident that leaves you financially broke, paralyzed, and basically 100% dependent on others for everything for the rest of your life?

How can the USofA prevent being involved in another war?

How can we stop the next school shooting?

How could the next rape victim control the situation so they're not raped?

Sure, I can stockpile food and water so that during a natural disaster I have some provisions, but what if that disaster happens when I'm not home and I'm stuck somewhere too far away to get to it?

While there are some little things we can "control", there's a vast ca-gillion other things in the future we have zero control over. Zero.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
At least dragonfly asks questions, however elementary, to understand the context. You already assume(wrongly) that you know what I meant, and then proceeded to twist my words because of it. Sorry but, there is nothing to discuss with you. Keep your ignorance, it suits you.
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And vice versa

The White Wizard.
 
Dragonfly said:
Suppose I want 400 great-great-great grandchildren, but after producing a handful of my own children they all decide to never have children of their own?

How could you control that one of your offspring doesn't become the next "most deadly mass-murderer"?

How can you prevent yourself from being a victim of an accident that leaves you financially broke, paralyzed, and basically 100% dependent on others for everything for the rest of your life?

How can the USofA prevent being involved in another war?

How can we stop the next school shooting?

How could the next rape victim control the situation so they're not raped?

Sure, I can stockpile food and water so that during a natural disaster I have some provisions, but what if that disaster happens when I'm not home and I'm stuck somewhere too far away to get to it?

While there are some little things we can "control", there's a vast ca-gillion other things in the future we have zero control over. Zero.
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We cannot control the future, despite the Dark Wizard waving his magic staff.
 
Dragonfly said:
Suppose I want 400 great-great-great grandchildren, but after producing a handful of my own children they all decide to never have children of their own?
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Wow, you really had to duck to miss that point. What I said was merely an example, it wasn't meant to be taken to an extreme.

I guess you could raise your children as slaves to your mentality, but that's beside the point. The point you missed in your post is that, indeed, when human does A, B happens. it's up to us, then, to decide what kind of outcomes we want, and how best to achieve them.
How could you control that one of your offspring doesn't become the next "most deadly mass-murderer"?

How can you prevent yourself from being a victim of an accident that leaves you financially broke, paralyzed, and basically 100% dependent on others for everything for the rest of your life?

How can the USofA prevent being involved in another war?

How can we stop the next school shooting?

How could the next rape victim control the situation so they're not raped?

Sure, I can stockpile food and water so that during a natural disaster I have some provisions, but what if that disaster happens when I'm not home and I'm stuck somewhere too far away to get to it?

While there are some little things we can "control", there's a vast ca-gillion other things in the future we have zero control over. Zero.
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Just because we 'can' control the outcome, doesn't mean that it will necessarily occur, nor that it's preferable. I think the basic concept here is that, when you do A, B happens. Still, those questions would be good for people whose jobs it is to solve such issues.

As long as you know that people can, and do, have an impact world events(by virtue of most world events being caused by humans), you're on the right track! IF you haven't gotten it now....well....I can't help you.
 
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Infinity is a tricky concept. Most people's mistake is trying to divide it into two directions. Going into the past, and going into the future. Like a single point moving along a line.

Infinity is all at once. Its a description of the size of a dimension. Not a period of time. Unless you count all of time as one period. Which I do not because the word period comes with a suggested beginning and end.

Whether you are a creationist and believe that god created the Universe.

Or like me and suspect this Universe was created in a massive interaction between matter and anti matter.

It would be wrong to assume their was nothing before those events.

More matter and anti matter existed before this Universe than now. And for so long that gravity condensed it all into a tiny mass.

Or the Universe is all in God's mind and we are mere thoughts. Which means god came before.

Currently, with imperfect means of observation we have observed everything getting further apart. If it continues to do so, in trillions of years. Everything will have frozen over. A cold death.

But, only things that can observe will have truly ended. The mass of the Universe will remain there existing, lifeless and cold.

Heck, maybe it will all slowly draw itself back together and form into a tiny little ball and then explode.

And where will we be during this whole process, while we are not living?

A human is pretty much an electric current working a meat machine. The electricity that fires your synapses, that's your soul. Or so I believe. That electricity stays alive as long as life remains unbroken on your planet. It begins when life begins on your planet and that chemical energy is first generated. When your final descendant dies, that energy will die with it. And it will fade into nothing.

As for the concept of you as a person, you didn't exist before you were conceived, and you won't exist after the last person to remember you dies. Making a few humans, like Genghis Khan or Jesus Christ somewhat immortal.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
and you won't exist after the last person to remember you dies
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I have occasionally thought about this concept.

Your "after-life" is only what others remember about you.
If you're a good person, and those that think about you remember the good stuff, well that's "heaven".
If you've been an ass, and those who remember you are generally having negative thoughts about you, that's "hell".
 
Confucius say: Drop is lake to gnat.
 
Dragonfly said:
Totally not surprised there's very little conversation in this thread.

Why is it that "eternity" is always looking forward, but never looking back?

For whatever eternity is in the future, there's an equal eternity in the past.

Where were "you" for the eternity before "you" were born?
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e·ter·nal
/əˈtərn(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: eternal

lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

Eternity has no beginning or end. So if religious people claim that there is an eternal afterlife, that afterlife has to extend the entirety of eternity. That would mean that you always existed and will always exist. That would then mean that you were not created but already existed infinitely..

But the common claim (as stated by other posters) is that god created you and that after you die you will exist infinitely. So an afterlife cannot be eternal if it has a beginning.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
e·ter·nal
/əˈtərn(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: eternal

lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

Eternity has no beginning or end. So if religious people claim that there is an eternal afterlife, that afterlife has to extend the entirety of eternity. That would mean that you always existed and will always exist. That would then mean that you were not created but already existed infinitely..

But the common claim (as stated by other posters) is that god created you and that after you die you will exist infinitely. So an afterlife cannot be eternal if it has a beginning.
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So if that's the case, why oh why would a "loving god" condemn anyone for "eternity" if it's based only on the infinitesimally tiny time they are alive as humans on Earth?
 
Dragonfly said:
So if that's the case, why oh why would a "loving god" condemn anyone for "eternity" if it's based only on the infinitesimally tiny time they are alive as humans on Earth?
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Well obviously whoever wrote that crap was not very educated.
 
zyzygy said:
The primitives who wrote the bible were not very educated by modern standards.
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Are you referring to the originators of the oral tales, or to the subsequent scribes and redactors who reduced those tales to writing?


OM
 
Omega Man said:
Are you referring to the originators of the oral tales, or to the subsequent scribes and redactors who reduced those tales to writing?


OM
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The originators.
 
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