For or Against the war?

[DeeJayH]

Yes, they have an obligation not to question they're leader's motives.

I am guessing that is sarcasm
the reason i believe the military overwhelmingly support the war, is because they are there
they see what is actually happening. All the good that is occuring

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by DeeJayH
I am guessing that is sarcasm
the reason i believe the military overwhelmingly support the war, is because they are there
they see what is actually happening. All the good that is occuring

Not to mention the 2000+ bad that has occurred.

 

[DeeJayH]

Not to mention the 2000+ bad that has occurred.

While every human loss is a tragedy
2000 deaths in a war is NOTHING
it is a tribute to our fine soldiers that the death toll is so low
if we were at 20,000 or 200,000 you might have point
but this is not a car accident or a hurricane
This is WAR. People die
2000 is incredibly low

anybody who thinks 2000 lives is too high a cost in war, they do NOT deserve to be in power
they are COWARDS, WIMPS and have NO CLUE about the real world

 

[Chevalier]

Not to mention the 2000+ bad that has occurred.

Yes, let's also remember to mention the incipient racism implied in the tireless keeping track of American lives lost, while ignoring the horrific genocide and murder that went on under Saddy. Let's remember the 2000 Americans, but were the Iraqis just colateral damage? Bill, your fascination with American losses and negation of the Iraqi suffering under Saddam and terrorism is a reminder that inaction in the face of atrocity is the same in effect as endorsement of atrocity. You are saying it is okay for Iraqis to be killed and tortured at the rate of 5000-6000 per annum, but if an American dies, the cost is too high. In effect, if not outright intent, you suggest American lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives. Tell me where did you come up with this racist line of reasoning?

When did it become okay to just let citizens die under a brutal dictator as long as Americans don't? I'll tell you when it was codified. When Warren Christopher walked out of the Security Council during the Rwandan genocide and was quoted saying, "Let them die as long as we don't have to." That's the same language you are using, is that your belief?

 

[DeeJayH]

Yes, let's also remember to mention the incipient racism implied in the tireless keeping track of American lives lost, while ignoring the horrific genocide and murder that went on under Saddy. Let's remember the 2000 Americans, but were the Iraqis just colateral damage? Bill, your fascination with American losses and negation of the Iraqi suffering under Saddam and terrorism is a reminder that inaction in the face of atrocity is the same in effect as endorsement of atrocity. You are saying it is okay for Iraqis to be killed and tortured at the rate of 5000-6000 per annum, but if an American dies, the cost is too high. In effect, if not outright intent, you suggest American lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives. Tell me where did you come up with this racist line of reasoning?

When did it become okay to just let citizens die under a brutal dictator as long as Americans don't? I'll tell you when it was codified. When Warren Christopher walked out of the Security Council during the Rwandan genocide and was quoted saying, "Let them die as long as we don't have to." That's the same language you are using, is that your belief?

hopefully i can reply faster with the anticipated response of the other side

its happening in more countries than just Iraq
:doh

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Chevalier
Yes, let's also remember to mention the incipient racism implied in the tireless keeping track of American lives lost, while ignoring the horrific genocide and murder that went on under Saddy. Let's remember the 2000 Americans, but were the Iraqis just colateral damage? Bill, your fascination with American losses and negation of the Iraqi suffering under Saddam and terrorism is a reminder that inaction in the face of atrocity is the same in effect as endorsement of atrocity. You are saying it is okay for Iraqis to be killed and tortured at the rate of 5000-6000 per annum, but if an American dies, the cost is too high. In effect, if not outright intent, you suggest American lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives. Tell me where did you come up with this racist line of reasoning?

When did it become okay to just let citizens die under a brutal dictator as long as Americans don't? I'll tell you when it was codified. When Warren Christopher walked out of the Security Council during the Rwandan genocide and was quoted saying, "Let them die as long as we don't have to." That's the same language you are using, is that your belief?

I said all that!? Wow, that's word economy. Yeah, I said lets remember the 2000+ Americans. After that, its all you, baby. I think I've said enough on other threads about Iraqi dead that would allow me to omit them here just once. If you researched some of my other threads and/or posts on this subject, you might not be saying everything you said here. But if you did and you do, OK. I don't have a problem with your truth.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by DeeJayH:
anybody who thinks 2000 lives is too high a cost in war, they do NOT deserve to be in power
they are COWARDS, WIMPS and have NO CLUE about the real world

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A real man wouldn't stop until he got 4000, 5000 or at least 6000 deaths, yeah! Rock-on. Yeah, yeah.

 

[kal-el]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A real man wouldn't stop until he got 4000, 5000 or at least 6000 deaths, yeah! Rock-on. Yeah, yeah.

Hahahahahaha:rofl

 

[Chevalier]

hopefully i can reply faster with the anticipated response of the other side

Hey I'm all for ending the reign of dictators around the globe. I don't think it should be violent, we should just give them enforced voluntary or involuntary retirement. It should be a UN job but if you throw a little money their way they'll give you a free "Do whatever you want card" and put the offending nation on the Human Rights Committee. My point when in government and when outside government has consistently been that the US and the UN need a consistent human rights foreign policy. We are responsible for many abyssmal leaders in the world, between East and West power plays, and those leaders need to go the way of the Cold War! It's time the UN stop taking bribes and get to enacting UNESCO's peace-building plan.

I mean if we're honest we know why France opposed Iraq and Sudan. Iraq= oil $ and if the French troops went into Sudan after earlier abuses, the Sudanese forces wouldn't know which direction to fire in. Let's be more honest, the time for an end to dictatorial rule is over and no former colonial power or Cold War power has any moral high ground left in which to effect such change. The time has come to change the UN's mandate and put teeth into the force they use.

 

[DeeJayH]

Hey I'm all for ending the reign of dictators around the globe. I don't think it should be violent, we should just give them enforced voluntary or involuntary retirement. It should be a UN job but if you throw a little money their way they'll give you a free "Do whatever you want card" and put the offending nation on the Human Rights Committee. My point when in government and when outside government has consistently been that the US and the UN need a consistent human rights foreign policy. We are responsible for many abyssmal leaders in the world, between East and West power plays, and those leaders need to go the way of the Cold War! It's time the UN stop taking bribes and get to enacting UNESCO's peace-building plan.

I mean if we're honest we know why France opposed Iraq and Sudan. Iraq= oil $ and if the French troops went into Sudan after earlier abuses, the Sudanese forces wouldn't know which direction to fire in. Let's be more honest, the time for an end to dictatorial rule is over and no former colonial power or Cold War power has any moral high ground left in which to effect such change. The time has come to change the UN's mandate and put teeth into the force they use.

The UN is a toothless organization
Without Major overhauls it will go the way of the dinosaurs

 

[DeeJayH]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A real man wouldn't stop until he got 4000, 5000 or at least 6000 deaths, yeah! Rock-on. Yeah, yeah.

I guess you think we should only go to war when we will have no US casualties
Fire up the nuclear arsenals, that will appease the looney left :roll: :doh :lol:

 

[tecoyah]

I would be suprised if there was not a form of "survival instinct" that comes into play with many people put in such a postition. I have a feeling I would revert to a somewhat more primal, base version of myself if I had to kill people to stay alive.

 

[Chevalier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A real man wouldn't stop until he got 4000, 5000 or at least 6000 deaths, yeah! Rock-on. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but if it'll be the expiation required for our colonial and Cold War sins in Iraq then it will be. If that's what you need to feel we've done the job, I hope it doesn't come to that, but you keep hoping for that political victory. I understand how the political left wants a high American death count to help their derth of ideas to solve problems, but I have a somewhat different perspective.

You see, I went there as a medical missionary and human rights observer on three separate occasions, when exactly was it that you went to Iraq? Did you clean and dress festering wounds, vaccinate babies, feed dying people? Please do tell me, when did you go into bunkers in Iraq to see torture chambers? When did you go to identify human remains and clean them out of a meat grinder? Hmmmm?! I'm breathless with anticipation. Tell me, how did you express that you were willing to care for, to love, the Iraqi people?

The point is where was your voice when Saddam butchered tens of thousands of Kurds? They weren't important to you were they? Where was your voice when Saddy drained the marshland through erection of dams, forcibly removing 250,000 ethnic Marsh Arabs from their homes and destroying their habitat? You never said a word did you? Where was your voice when 5000-6000 Iraqis were dying annually, some in pleasant ways like being shoved through plastic shredders and meat grinders? Having witnessed it I know I'll never be able to eat hamburger again. But I bet you had no word then did you? I bet hamburgers taste just fine to you don't they? Those soldiers and medical missionaries over there are cleaning up 30+ years of the Western world's sins visited upon the people of Iraq.

The only time you even cared about the situation in Iraq was when Americans started dying. Only then did the situation in Iraq matter. You didn't care that the sanctions were strangling the people, but Saddy was rich. You didn't care that infants were dying for lack of food, medicine and incubators. You didn't care that those sanctions would never have been lifted and the people would have been victimized, as long as Saddy's henchmen were in power. You you, those were acceptible Arab/Persian losses to you weren't they? Oh sure you dressed them up as victims, you did wring your hands and say something must be done, but be honest, you didn't care as long as the gasoline flowed and Americans didn't die. You didn't care enough to be part of the solution, to apply pressure on the UN, let's face it you didn't care about Iraqis at all. You joined with Warren Christopher, "Let them die as long as we don't have to." I know, I know, you're not going to admit that, but in your actions, in your behavior, you done preached it and lived it buddy.

5000-6000 Americans is too many bud, but so is 5000-6000 Iraqis and it should have mattered a long time ago. Maybe if it had we wouldn't be in the situation we are today.

 

[cnredd]

I liked Chevalier's response better than kal-el's...he just laughed...

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Chevalier:
You see, I went there as a medical missionary and human rights observer on three separate occasions, when exactly was it that you went to Iraq? Did you clean and dress festering wounds, vaccinate babies, feed dying people? Please do tell me, when did you go into bunkers in Iraq to see torture chambers? When did you go to identify human remains and clean them out of a meat grinder? Hmmmm?! I'm breathless with anticipation

A week ago, Tuesday. I have frequent flyer miles.

 

[DeeJayH]

A week ago, Tuesday. I have frequent flyer miles.

amazing
:rofl you were able to go to Iraq and you found an internet cafe while you were there
good for you
any suicide attacks while you were there ?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Chevalier:
Well, I wouldn't go that far, but if it'll be the expiation required for our colonial and Cold War sins in Iraq then it will be. If that's what you need to feel we've done the job, I hope it doesn't come to that, but you keep hoping for that political victory. I understand how the political left wants a high American death count to help their derth of ideas to solve problems, but I have a somewhat different perspective.

Tell me, how did you express that you were willing to care for, to love, the Iraqi people?

The point is where was your voice when Saddam butchered tens of thousands of Kurds? They weren't important to you were they? Where was your voice when Saddy drained the marshland through erection of dams, forcibly removing 250,000 ethnic Marsh Arabs from their homes and destroying their habitat? You never said a word did you? Where was your voice when 5000-6000 Iraqis were dying annually, some in pleasant ways like being shoved through plastic shredders and meat grinders? Having witnessed it I know I'll never be able to eat hamburger again. But I bet you had no word then did you? I bet hamburgers taste just fine to you don't they? Those soldiers and medical missionaries over there are cleaning up 30+ years of the Western world's sins visited upon the people of Iraq.

The only time you even cared about the situation in Iraq was when Americans started dying. Only then did the situation in Iraq matter. You didn't care that the sanctions were strangling the people, but Saddy was rich. You didn't care that infants were dying for lack of food, medicine and incubators. You didn't care that those sanctions would never have been lifted and the people would have been victimized, as long as Saddy's henchmen were in power. You you, those were acceptible Arab/Persian losses to you weren't they? Oh sure you dressed them up as victims, you did wring your hands and say something must be done, but be honest, you didn't care as long as the gasoline flowed and Americans didn't die. You didn't care enough to be part of the solution, to apply pressure on the UN, let's face it you didn't care about Iraqis at all. You joined with Warren Christopher, "Let them die as long as we don't have to." I know, I know, you're not going to admit that, but in your actions, in your behavior, you done preached it and lived it buddy.

5000-6000 Americans is too many bud, but so is 5000-6000 Iraqis and it should have mattered a long time ago. Maybe if it had we wouldn't be in the situation we are today.

Are you talking to me? I sound like Dinero. Oh, it mattered. Yeah, we did something about it alright. What's it like there now? Let's hear from someone living there:

Iraq and the Guinness World Records Book
By Leon Barkho Azzaman, September 1, 2005

In the two and a half years since the U.S. invasion, Iraq has broken several records and all of them in areas that have added to the misery of the Iraqi people.

In Iraq, a country floating on oceans of oil, you will find the longest queues of cars in the world forming at filling stations in Baghdad and other major cities.

In Iraq, there have been more suicide and car bomb attacks in July than any other place in the world.

In Iraq car bombs have killed more people than any other country in the world.

In Iraq, there are now more unruly armed militias than any other country in the world, including Somalia.

In Iraq, there are now more foreign troops than any other country in the world.

Iraq is the only place in the world where foreign troops do what ever they want to do – such as killing innocent people, invading cities, bombing cities, crashing armor into cars with families, etc – with impunity.

Iraq is the only country where foreign troops detain nationals and put them behind bars without trial.

Iraq is the only ‘independent’ country in the world where foreign occupation troops are above the law.

Iraq is the only country where all senior officials, ministries and administrators live behind concrete cement walls.

The number of Iraqi doctors, university professors, engineers and intellectuals who have fled the country in a few years is higher than any other state in the world.

There are more armed gangs in Baghdad than even New York and the number of abductions of Iraqis in the city is higher than anywhere in the world.

The number of Iraqis killed per month in Baghdad is higher in per one thousand population than any other city in the world.

Iraq is the only country in the world where political, sectarian and religious factions have the right to ring offices with blast walls with concrete towers protruding into the streets and manned by trigger happy guards.

There are more televised scenes of horror coming out of Iraq than any other country in the world.

The list is by no means exhaustive. Only the restriction on the number of words by the newspaper forces me to stop listing what should have gone into the Guinness Book of World Records long time ago.

http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=opinion\2005-09-01\10506.htm

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by DeeJayH:
amazing
you were able to go to Iraq and you found an internet cafe while you were there
good for you
any suicide attacks while you were there ?

Don't lose your head over this, but I was just being facetious.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Chevalier:
Hey I'm all for ending the reign of dictators around the globe.

Regime change begins at home.

 

[kal-el]

I liked Chevalier's response better than kal-el's...he just laughed...

Dude, I laughed at how Billo was responding to DeeJay's claim that 2000 is not alot of people dying in a war. I wasn't trying to impress anyone.

 

[DeeJayH]

Don't lose your head over this, but I was just being facetious.

well aware of that
so i replied in jest

 

[Chevalier]

Don't lose your head over this, but I was just being facetious.

Yes, lacking the principles to go and see what's going on, he'll readily surrender the truth to one who shares his own views. See it's like I said Bill has a closet streak of racism, clothed in an isolationist political philosophy. It's a convenient way of preserving values: don't get in a situation where they might get challenged. Pontificate from a safe distance. Tell us Bill, what's wrong with going to Iraq to see for yourself, to learn the reality first hand. When I wanted to understand what was happening in Rwanda, I went to Rwanda. When I wanted to understand the Israel-Palestine situation, I went and am going to Israel-Palestine. When I wanted to understand what is going on in Iraq I went to Iraq and discovered it's so big, and so diverse it took three trips. But you stay here, telling yourself it's safer when what you're really saying is that Iraqis are not worth your time.

 

[DeeJayH]

Dude, I laughed at how Billo was responding to DeeJay's claim that 2000 is not alot of people dying in a war. I wasn't trying to impress anyone.

nor have you impressed anyone :doh :lol:
more people died on 9/11, a single day, than died in the Iraq War
2000 dead used to happen in a day
2000 dead used to happen in a single battle

try putting things in perspective
hope my post helps wake you up to reality
2000 in a major military op is nothing

58,000 is big
MILLIONS is huge
a few thousand is Success story

 

[kal-el]

nor have you impressed anyone :doh :lol:
more people died on 9/11, a single day, than died in the Iraq War
2000 dead used to happen in a day
2000 dead used to happen in a single battle

So I guess that entitles us to luanch an invasion against Iraq?None of the 9/11 hijackers were at all backed by Saddam's regime. Yea, used to. We have advanced alot technologically speaking, and we don't really have the need for American casulties any more.

try putting things in perspective
hope my post helps wake you up to reality
2000 in a major military op is nothing

It is if it's a phoney cause. This war was not-needed to say the least. It was just launched to distract Americans from W's lousy economic record.

 

[DeeJayH]

So I guess that entitles us to luanch an invasion against Iraq

try to stay focused on what we are debating
the number dead is what is used by the left to cut and run
where as my post you quoted shows the number dead in Iraq is miniscual
when compared to history
how many or how few soldiers have died in Iraq has NOTHING to do with why we went in:roll:

We have advanced alot technologically speaking, and we don't really have the need for American casulties any more

unless you are willing to use nukes than you are fooling only yourself
and i doubt you have the balls to use them
and this statement alone shows how deluded you are
typical of libs and socialists
so intellectual, so much better than others
but you would not last a day in the real world without the MILITARY killing enemies, and being killed in the battle
the day of reckoning is coming for elitist idiots who think they can survive in this world without wars
you will be conquered and slaughtered if the military is not around to defend your right to be as stupid as you want to be

It was just launched to distract Americans from W's lousy economic record.

you have no clue what you are talking about
if a dem was in power we would be in a recession, if not a depression
because all dems know how to do is raise taxes, which kills an economy
Bush cut taxes and stimulated the economy
Because of Bush we have a strong vibrant growing economy, despite the stock market crash
despite the 9/11 attacks
despite the hurricanes