First independent report into Xinjiang genocide allegations claims evidence of Beijing's 'intent to destroy' Uyghur people

[Fledermaus]

Forum members please!! We all know what's happening in H.K. but hardly anybody is willing to take their understanding to the next level. I'll do that now!l

H.K. has a very rich and powerful ruling class and their power is being threatened. That threat is dirctly a threat to US/UK imperialism, let there be no doubt! Capitalism has brought huge prosperity to the few wealthy class people of H.K. Indeed, it stands as the bastion of capitalism in all it's glory!

But along comes China with it's way of bringing moderate prosperity to all of H.K.'s people. And there's little doubt that China has found a method to make that happen in the sense of China as a whole nation.

It's become of utmost importance to 'imperalism' because it's standing out as being a symbolic fight against communism.

And so China will win the fight and bring H.K. safely back into the fold as a part of the larger China. H.K. is coming home, no matter the efforts of anyone or any country's efforts to stop it from happening. All of H.K.'s people will see greater prosperity, not just the few!

The only reward imperialists will get out of their trouble making is some demonization of China in the eyes of a minority of the world's people.

However, the next step in the process is going to amount to a significant number of innocent people will die as the US/UK turns to military means and forces in their attempt to hold H.K.

What's to debate? The pattern is clear on what's happening in H.K. because it's been repeated ad nauseum by America and/or Britain?

Seriously then, what's to debate?

We can debate your inability to understand history.

How can the US/UK "attempt to hold H.K." when they haven't for decades?

 

[Montgomery]

It seems that the people of Hong Kong are managing their affairs' much better than is being done in mainland China. The CCP is dishonest, corrupt and brainwashed. They should learn to manage themselves before advising others.

In fact Carl, the CCP has demonstrated a communist success that stands out as unmatched in the entire world.

You continue to use the word 'greed' but don't give any examples. Is it a matter of people trying to improve their lives, something which you oppose?[/quote]

And indeed, the very wealthy in H.K. have succeeded more than any other imperialists/capitalists in improving their lots in life and their fortunes.
I've been to H.K. several times during the era of British rule as well as after the transition. I've seen the tremendous wealth in jewelry shops for example, where a person can buy an item of jewelfy priced in excess of 5 or 6 million dollars. Ant then I've been able to dig a bit below the surface to see the majority of H.K.'s people living in abject poverty!

Let my personal experience in H.K. serve as my example of the 'greed' you seem to think I'm avoiding!

You apparently know nothing about Cuba's history either. Under Batista the Cuban's had the most basic of human freedoms - the right to leave.
Yes, you could have mentioned Venezuela.
Oh yes, of course. All part of the Chinese education system is it?

We're talking about H.K. now and it serves as an example of the others you seem to want to talk about. I'm not shy on any of them.

But you've come close to a personal insult toward me when you suggest that I'm not aware and concerned about 'human freedoms.'

Stifle Carl!

 

[Montgomery]

We can debate your inability to understand history.

How can the US/UK "attempt to hold H.K." when they haven't for decades?

The US/UK has held H.K. as a symbolic example of huge capitalist success! And it is just that!
Pay close attention now, because everything in H.K. is not so rosy. Beneath the veneer the ruling class has erected, there'a hug majority of the people living in abject poverty.

Here's an explanation to round out the discussion: China had tolerated the existing system of greedy capitalism in H.K. but the imperialist mindset wasn't content with the arrangement and so pushed it to being 'a bridge too far for capitalism'.

In a sense there's a similarity to the Crimea where a satisfactory arrangement but the Ukraine, at US urging, pushed it to being a 'bridge too far' and lost everything it had to Russia.

H.K., Cuba, Crimea, and Vietnam have something in common.
All Americans should start considering how the 21st. century is moving on, as soon as their brains aren't too full to understand.

 

[Antiwar]

The ICC has no jurisdiction. Yep.

As to the bolded....

Clarify.

Spell it out.

You want war?

How total a war do you want?

Humanity needs to figure out and use methods that prevent and stop human rights abuses. Historically, it seems to me that humanity has waited till well after human rights abuses have turned into massive genocide to take sufficient action. That action has been war, which creates more human rights abuses, destruction, and death.

How do (imperfect as they are) justice systems work? In the US, people are arrested for committing a crime and processed by the judicial system. How does international justice work? I don't know. I want to say that it doesn't work. International justice is economic and physical punishment through violence, which also destroys Earth's biosphere.

Is policing after violent crimes occur preferable to PREVENTING violent crimes? What? How can violent crimes be prevented? Answer: Create the societal conditions that reduce the likelihood of violent crimes.

What should we do about the alleged human rights abuses committed by the Chinese government? We need an international justice system that has jurisdiction. Does the US government allow the ICC to have jurisdiction in the US for what the US government does domestically and internationally? I don't know. I think it doesn't.

 

[Montgomery]

Answer: What should be figured out is what should be done about alleged human rights abuses.

Alleged? Allegations?

I've laid out in detail my friend, what was done by the US/UK about alleged human rights allegations.

Let's consider Iraq, if you will, with your antiwar hat still on!
The allegations became very real as a million Iraqi innocents were slaughtered under bombs from 30,000 feet.

And America kept the bombing sanitary for one side at least!

 

[Tigerace117]

There are alleged human rights abuses but no allegations of mass execution.

On the last day of the T**** administration Mike Pompeo called this genocide. What did the administration do about this issue during their term?

The ICC said they don't have the authority to even investigate the allegations (see below large quoted text).

Nobody did anything about the human rights abuses and genocide committed by the Chinese government in the approximate decade of 1950-1960, where millions were killed.

How many years has the US military been parked as close as they can to China?

Are we going to wait till there's undeniable evidence of millions of deaths to do anything? Or are we going to ignore it, again? Maybe I'm wrong: Did anyone try to stop the 1950s genocide by the Chinese government?

What have I said that humanity should do with regard to human rights abuses?

There are numerous confirmed human rights abuses. China is trying to wipe out the Uighur culture, which by itself would qualify as genocide.... and that’s not even getting into things like the forced marriages and sterilizations.

The Trump administration, in its own ineffectual way, did take steps to oppose the genocidal thugs in Beijing.

The US has been protecting the people of Taiwan from the genocidal thugs in Beijing for many years.

Nope, ”anti war“ people praised the ”Great Leap Forward“ and totally ignored the mass murder.

To posture ineffectually and wail about the violators’ “human rights“ being “abused” when the genocide is stopped

 

[Tigerace117]

Alleged? Allegations?

I've laid out in detail my friend, what was done by the US/UK about alleged human rights allegations.

Let's consider Iraq, if you will, with your antiwar hat still on!
The allegations became very real as a million Iraqi innocents were slaughtered under bombs from 30,000 feet.

And America kept the bombing sanitary for one side at least!

Your squealing about the Iraq War while celebrating the ongoing genocide in Xinjiang is almost hilariously hypocritical.

 

[Montgomery]

There are numerous confirmed human rights abuses. China is trying to wipe out the Uighur culture, which by itself would qualify as genocide.... and that’s not even getting into things like the forced marriages and sterilizations.

So even in this case of China being the victim of demonization, I'll still betcha Tiger, that many more people are about to die under US/UK bombs than China could ever snuff out with the Uighurs, the people of H.K., or the people of Tibet!

How will the US be able to murder hundreds os thousands of people in the name of stopping China's human rights abuses?

The only example I could offer is in looking closely at the number of Nato's victims under the cause of stopping Russia's human rights abuses!

Or, more correctly Tiger, the 'alleged' abuses.

 

[Fledermaus]

Humanity needs to figure out and use methods that prevent and stop human rights abuses. Historically, it seems to me that humanity has waited till well after human rights abuses have turned into massive genocide to take sufficient action. That action has been war, which creates more human rights abuses, destruction, and death.

How do (imperfect as they are) justice systems work? In the US, people are arrested for committing a crime and processed by the judicial system. How does international justice work? I don't know. I want to say that it doesn't work. International justice is economic and physical punishment through violence, which also destroys Earth's biosphere.

Is policing after violent crimes occur preferable to PREVENTING violent crimes? What? How can violent crimes be prevented? Answer: Create the societal conditions that reduce the likelihood of violent crimes.

What should we do about the alleged human rights abuses committed by the Chinese government? We need an international justice system that has jurisdiction. Does the US government allow the ICC to have jurisdiction in the US for what the US government does domestically and internationally? I don't know. I think it doesn't.

Historically it took a nation with the resources to go to war....

I await your option.

 

[Carl Young]

Forum members please!! We all know what's happening in H.K. but hardly anybody is willing to take their understanding to the next level. I'll do that now!l

H.K. has a very rich and powerful ruling class and their power is being threatened. That threat is dirctly a threat to US/UK imperialism, let there be no doubt! Capitalism has brought huge prosperity to the few wealthy class people of H.K. Indeed, it stands as the bastion of capitalism in all it's glory!

But along comes China with it's way of bringing moderate prosperity to all of H.K.'s people. And there's little doubt that China has found a method to make that happen in the sense of China as a whole nation.

It's become of utmost importance to 'imperalism' because it's standing out as being a symbolic fight against communism.

And so China will win the fight and bring H.K. safely back into the fold as a part of the larger China. H.K. is coming home, no matter the efforts of anyone or any country's efforts to stop it from happening. All of H.K.'s people will see greater prosperity, not just the few!

The only reward imperialists will get out of their trouble making is some demonization of China in the eyes of a minority of the world's people.

However, the next step in the process is going to amount to a significant number of innocent people will die as the US/UK turns to military means and forces in their attempt to hold H.K.

What's to debate? The pattern is clear on what's happening in H.K. because it's been repeated ad nauseum by America and/or Britain?

Seriously then, what's to debate?

Yes. as in any Communist country. everyone but the dictators will be equally impoverished, a two class system. And yes, it is becoming common knowledge throughout the world that China has become an ignorant and oppressive bully, while also conducting experiments in biological warfare.

 

[Tigerace117]

So even in this case of China being the victim of demonization, I'll still betcha Tiger, that many more people are about to die under US/UK bombs than China could ever snuff out with the Uighurs, the people of H.K., or the people of Tibet!

How will the US be able to murder hundreds os thousands of people in the name of stopping China's human rights abuses?

The only example I could offer is in looking closely at the number of Nato's victims under the cause of stopping Russia's human rights abuses!

Or, more correctly Tiger, the 'alleged' abuses.

Pointing out the fact that China is committing genocide is not “demonizing”; nor does your whataboutism change the facts. The US will defend its allies against Chinese aggression, no matter how much the PRC wails.

 

[bearpoker]

In the interest of keeping this thread alive, a little quiz for everybody:

If China lined up Islamic/Christian,Uighur enemies and herded them over a cliff at waking pace, and spaced a meter apart, how long would it take China to eliminate it's enemy to equal the US slaughter of Iraq's innocent people?

My answer: About 5 years.
If anybody would like a breakdown of my calculations, just ask.

You forgot to count all the millions of peasants that starved to death during the Great Leap Forward.

 

[Fledermaus]

Alleged? Allegations?

I've laid out in detail my friend, what was done by the US/UK about alleged human rights allegations.

Let's consider Iraq, if you will, with your antiwar hat still on!
The allegations became very real as a million Iraqi innocents were slaughtered under bombs from 30,000 feet.

And America kept the bombing sanitary for one side at least!

Why lie?

 

[Montgomery]

Yes. as in any Communist country. everyone but the dictators will be equally impoverished, a two class system. And yes, it is becoming common knowledge throughout the world that China has become an ignorant and oppressive bully, while also conducting experiments in biological warfare.

But still Carl, your vacuous accusations aside.

China has elevated hundreds of millions of their people up out of poverty in a very short time and to a degree of success that has never been equalled in history.['b]

So I don't accept your accusations but if I did, the murder/political liquidations would be worth it hundreds of millions of times over.

For it must be said Carl, that every person of Chinese descent is worth one person of Caucasian, African, Aboriginal descent.

Or speaking of religious persuasion, of Uighurs, Buddhist, Christian, or Atheist origin!

I'm a Canadian and I'm not a racist Carl.

 

[Antiwar]

The US will defend its allies against Chinese aggression

When?

How?

 

[Montgomery]

Why lie?

I'm going to consider a direct accusation of lying to be a violation of the board rules. That will be my interpretation of rule three in part, until I've been told otherwise.

I'm not going there and getting into insults Fledermaus, and neither should you.

You're always at liberty to start a thread in the appropriate section of the forum in which anything goes.

 

[Tigerace117]

When?

How?

Whenever they are threatened, and by deploying elements of our military....,as we did before

 

[Antiwar]

China has elevated hundreds of millions of their people up out of poverty in a very short time and to a degree of success that has never been equalled in history.

... the murder/political liquidations would be worth it hundreds of millions of times over.

How would the "liquidations" be worth it?

 

[Antiwar]

Whenever they are threatened, and by deploying elements of our military....,as we did before

Is your plan to let human rights abuses and genocide happen in non-allied countries?

 

[Montgomery]

When?

How?

You're so fortunate to have grabbed the name, 'antiwar'!
You must have considered that it would have some minor pitfalls as well as the huge advantages.

But pitfalls only to a person who wouldn't be able to 'talk the tallk' and 'walk the walk'.

You very seldom ever stray from the straight and narrow but you have to always remember that if you do then I'm going to start making a loud noise over it.

All of which is meant in the most complimentary and friendly terms!

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Forum members please!! We all know what's happening in H.K. but hardly anybody is willing to take their understanding to the next level. I'll do that now!l

H.K. has a very rich and powerful ruling class and their power is being threatened. That threat is dirctly a threat to US/UK imperialism, let there be no doubt! Capitalism has brought huge prosperity to the few wealthy class people of H.K. Indeed, it stands as the bastion of capitalism in all it's glory!

But along comes China with it's way of bringing moderate prosperity to all of H.K.'s people. And there's little doubt that China has found a method to make that happen in the sense of China as a whole nation.

It's become of utmost importance to 'imperalism' because it's standing out as being a symbolic fight against communism.

And so China will win the fight and bring H.K. safely back into the fold as a part of the larger China. H.K. is coming home, no matter the efforts of anyone or any country's efforts to stop it from happening. All of H.K.'s people will see greater prosperity, not just the few!

The only reward imperialists will get out of their trouble making is some demonization of China in the eyes of a minority of the world's people.

However, the next step in the process is going to amount to a significant number of innocent people will die as the US/UK turns to military means and forces in their attempt to hold H.K.

What's to debate? The pattern is clear on what's happening in H.K. because it's been repeated ad nauseum by America and/or Britain?

Seriously then, what's to debate?

I'd be very interested in learning what you envision as the US/UK "military means" are going to be.

Please do not leave out of your calculations the fact that the PRC has around 290 nuclear weapons AND has the means to deliver them anywhere in the United States of America PLUS the fact that the PRC's nuclear weapons are not "sitting ducks" for a first strike PLUS the fact that the PRC has the capacity to detect any first strike BEFORE it arrives PLUS the fact that the US does NOT have any effective means of stopping such nuclear weapons delivery.

I'm really looking forward to hearing your summary of how the US is going to withdraw ALL of its combat forces from EVERYWHERE in the world so that its (approximately) 246,650 "combat troops" (the US "tooth to tail" ration is around 1 :: 8) can "overrun" the 2,545,000 members of the PRC military (and 91,914,000 members of the Chinese Communist Party) in order to "install" a "freedom friendly" government.

 

[Antiwar]

You're so fortunate to have grabbed the name, 'antiwar'!
You must have considered that it would have some minor pitfalls as well as the huge advantages.

But pitfalls only to a person who wouldn't be able to 'talk the tallk' and 'walk the walk'.

You very seldom ever stray from the straight and narrow but you have to always remember that if you do then I'm going to start making a loud noise over it.

All of which is meant in the most complimentary and friendly terms!

Frankly, I'm working on my anti-war ideas by posting them on this website.

 

[Montgomery]

How would the "liquidations" be worth it?

It might come off as a little crass to explain that 999,999 human being slaughtered for political purposes is always better than 1,000,000 slaughtered for the same purpose.

So I'll modify that slightly to say that the 1,000,000 are Americans and the 999,999 are Chinese people, and then that will make much more sense.

You see what I meant with the name forcing you to 'talk the talk'!

You ask questions but you always accept the answer gracefully. Or maybe you're just silently biting your tongue.

You have the name but I can still get the high road my friend.

A good discussion don't you think, to break the mindless nonsense of China bashing!

 

[Roadvirus]

Russia, Saudi, Pakistan praise China's handling of Uighur ...
www.efe.com › English edition › World


— Russia, Saudi, Pakistan praise China on handling of Uighur Muslims ... High Commissioner for Human Rights to show their support for China.

Iran has no problem with it either.

 

[Fledermaus]

I'm going to consider a direct accusation of lying to be a violation of the board rules. That will be my interpretation of rule three in part, until I've been told otherwise.

I'm not going there and getting into insults Fledermaus, and neither should you.

You're always at liberty to start a thread in the appropriate section of the forum in which anything goes.

I am not calling you a liar.

I do however call the bolded in your post a lie.

And it is a lie.