Final 2012 Presidential Debate, Foreign Policy

[Pinkie]

To me, the interesting question is why is Romney showing so well here in Ohio? This state's voters are mainly blue collar, mainly union (or at least pro-union), Romney alienated the law and order crowd, this state is probably the most dependent on the auto industry save Michigan, Obama pays lip service to creating manufacturing jobs while Romney doesn't make any pretense that can possibly happen, this is not a hotbed of feminism or zionism or any other -ism, so..........

Obama should have a 20 point lead, and the fact that he does not suggests to me that something is going on beneath the surface. According to the local news, Obama has lost the most ground with college educated women -- that should be his core constituency!

Weird.

 

[George Romney]

This could be the end for Obama.[/QUOT
So snap polls among independants show the president won by a 2 to 1 margin, The Romney camp changed its tune from this morning and ceded this debate to the president saying this was a strategy to play it safe saying Romney shouldnt be expected to score points against the president on foriegn policy and you declare it a victory for Romney lol. FUN FACT__ SARAH PALIN considered an abortion and went back and forth over it for weeks. She felt she had a choice despite being wealthy with top tax payer healthcare and a full wait staff while being in a long term marriage. Lot harder decision for a poor young pregnant teen who worries her conservative father will throw her out and hears conservatives like Romney talking about getting rid of housing assistance. You praise the fetus as precious life then curse the baby who draws breath as a tax drain on taxpayers.

 

[upsideguy]

I don't see how horses and bayonets are analogous to naval ships, wanting a stronger navy is not the same as advocating bayonets and horses.

The point being that you do not judge the effectiveness of a 21st century navy by using number of ships as a metric. World history is full of armies and navies that attempt to prosecute current war based on methods of prior wars with bad result. The number of ships in a navy is no longer terribly relevant. 4th Generation Warfare is not fought with large armies lead by tanks nor naval armadas.

 

[George Romney]

To me, the interesting question is why is Romney showing so well here in Ohio? This state's voters are mainly blue collar, mainly union (or at least pro-union), Romney alienated the law and order crowd, this state is probably the most dependent on the auto industry save Michigan, Obama pays lip service to creating manufacturing jobs while Romney doesn't make any pretense that can possibly happen, this is not a hotbed of feminism or zionism or any other -ism, so..........

Obama should have a 20 point lead, and the fact that he does not suggests to me that something is going on beneath the surface. According to the local news, Obama has lost the most ground with college educated women -- that should be his core constituency!

Weird.

Well its weird because its not true. “Turning around manufacturing will be one of the key parts of turning around our country’s economy,” said Mitt Romney. “Making Ohio and the rest of the country a destination for manufacturing will bring jobs back to some of the hardest hit areas of our country." also the poll regarding college educated women voters was taken after the first debate and pumped up over and over by the conservative NJ. The reality is neither runs away with college educated women. Also since when is trailing by 5 points doing well? He was vastly outspending the president and had a succesful first debate and the closest he has been able to get in Ohio is trailing by 5 pts and in snap polls independants say Obama won the foriegn policy by a 2 to 1 margin. Thats not good news for Romney.

 

[George Romney]

And it seems to have done well for him. CNN's poll showed him with a 1% edge in who the debate ended up making people vote for, was only 3 points back from Obama in terms of being able to handle being CIC, only 5 back on being a strong leader, and only one back on like ability. You can quibble all you want on flip flopping, etch a sketch, etc...but politically, taking a less strong armed stance in this debate likely played better compared to how he's been attempted to be presented during this election.



I'm guessing you're talking ONLY about Foreign policy? Yes, you're right, he did sound a lot like Obama. Romney went more moderate than he has in the past on foreign policy. As such, it's not surprising that he sounded like Obama once doing that, since one of the big things Liberals complain about (and one of the few places you'll get some Conservatives giving SOME credit to Obama) is that Obama moved very center if not outright to the right on certain portions of Foreign policy.

Drones, Gitmo, Rendition, ignoring sovereign borders, pushing for regime change, etc.


Obama, to a point, also had Romney agreeing with him because OBAMA also shifted. Note Israel went from ONE of our "closest" allies in the Middle East to "greatest" ally in the region.

However...in an election cycle focused on the Economy more than anything else, suggesting that agreeing with Obama on a number of things in Foreign Policy is equal to "endorsing him for President" is laughable. But what can I expect from someone sitting here with a straight face suggesting ANY President is going to literally take money from foreign nations to purposefully weaken our country.

Funny you qoute 1% margins from the CNN poll which has a 4.5% margin of error. Even with that Margin it finds Obama is the winner of last nights debate but another key differance you slyly left out is the CNN poll is based off registered voters many of which are already committed to a canidate. They came under heavy fire for thier polls as it was found virtually all of those polled previously were over the age of 50 and from the red south...Due to this Cnn polls have been in conflict with national polls the last couple of debates. All that aside though the CBS poll focused on uncommitted voters and went 2 to 1 to Obama. The anything but liberal wall street Journal doesnt even attempt to spin it the way you are. As for the guy who claims Obama flip flopped because he went from calling ISRAEl one of our closest allies to our closest ally , thats semantics on a grand scale. Your canidate is a former "progressive moderate pro choice" man suddenly turned "one of the most conservative governors in history" a now pro lifer who changes positions by the day. He held 3 positions on Obama care in 24hrs a month ago even began reffering to it as healthcare reform.

As for the last portion of your argument Romney agreed with him nearly 20 times during this foriegn policy debate and struggled to lay out what specifically he would do differantly on many issues. When it comes to foriegn policy one could make a strong argument that Romney endorses The Obama administrations tactics in large measure.

 

[haymarket]

wow hackery at its finest,so farive seen them wffle,and so far its been a tie with the rest to be determined,if you believe obama owned romney,you simply didnt watch the debate at all or simply ignore erguments that didnt support obama.

both have been poor,like the last debate,either candidate could have unleashed hellupon the opponent but chose mediocre responses.

Th hackery seems to be in the right wing and their inability to be honest. At least when Obama got whupped in debate 1 we on the left were honest.

"Yes, we have fewer ships than we had in 1916. We also have fewer horses and bayonettes. This is NOT a game of Battleship".

That sequence made Romney look like a man badly out of time and out of touch. Until that moment Romney more resembled the rope-a-dope of the boxer Ali trying to stay away from any knockout punch by changing his positions and playing down his past right wing positions to appease the primary base. But that line was the KO punch and sent him reeling. And he knew it too. Go and watch how he desperately almost begged for time he was not entitled to so he could reply. Good job by the moderator in handling him there.

That is your key TV spot for the next two weeks.

Perhaps if the conservatives take over at least we will be able to bring back the tri-cornered hat to restore our supremacy in that department.:roll:

 

[PerfectStorm]

Certainly as Obama pointed out we want to be certain we only arm those who could be out allies and are empathetic to the citizens and offer humanitarian support ....

I take it you never heard of Fast and Furious.

 

[haymarket]

I take it you never heard of Fast and Furious.

Yeah - everywhere I go that is all people want to talk about in this election. :roll:

 

[TurtleDude]

I have been paying a portion of your tax bill all my life.

Would you like me to eat cat food trying to pay all of it?

how do you figure?

 

[j-mac]

Th hackery seems to be in the right wing and their inability to be honest. At least when Obama got whupped in debate 1 we on the left were honest.

"Yes, we have fewer ships than we had in 1916. We also have fewer horses and bayonettes. This is NOT a game of Battleship".

That sequence made Romney look like a man badly out of time and out of touch. Until that moment Romney more resembled the rope-a-dope of the boxer Ali trying to stay away from any knockout punch by changing his positions and playing down his past right wing positions to appease the primary base. But that line was the KO punch and sent him reeling. And he knew it too. Go and watch how he desperately almost begged for time he was not entitled to so he could reply. Good job by the moderator in handling him there.

That is your key TV spot for the next two weeks.

Perhaps if the conservatives take over at least we will be able to bring back the tri-cornered hat to restore our supremacy in that department.:roll:

On points I do think Obama won, but that may have been negated by the lies, plus the snarky, immature cuts that obviously his partisan base love but won't win him votes with independents. Romney looked far more presidential in that respect.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

 

[American]

Romney was absolutely on point on that.

Obama made some condescending remarks on that, but I will give Obama credit for his point about capability being the primary factor in determining materiel decisions. That is true. But typically it is not the president that decides this stuff, it's Congress who have heavy defense constituencies in their states.

 

[theangryamerican]

Ya, because tradition means nothing in the military.

Ask the troops in Iraq if they were fixing bayonets and charging the enemy for the sake of tradition. It was an ignorant comment on the President's part aimed at belittling Romney, nothing more. The fact remains that we actually have MORE bayonets in service now than we did in 1916. All the President illustrated is how out of touch with the military he is, at the moment.

 

[Bill Tetley]

I am waiting for the "liberal media" to pound the hell out of "Syria is Iran's route to the sea," one of the most inane, jaw-droppingly misinformed statements that has ever left the mouth of a major-party presidential candidate. I'm not seeing much, bizarre.

 

[haymarket]

On points I do think Obama won, but that may have been negated by the lies, plus the snarky, immature cuts that obviously his partisan base love but won't win him votes with independents. Romney looked far more presidential in that respect.

If looking like you think you are superior to everybody else and its a great work of labor just to smirk is looking presidential, perhaps Romney has that down pat.

 

[haymarket]

Ask the troops in Iraq if they were fixing bayonets and charging the enemy for the sake of tradition. It was an ignorant comment on the President's part aimed at belittling Romney, nothing more. The fact remains that we actually have MORE bayonets in service now than we did in 1916. All the President illustrated is how out of touch with the military he is, at the moment.

I find it amusing when people focus in on a branch of a tree and manage to miss the entire forest surrounding it.

 

[phalnix1]

While the Obama cheerleaders can feel good today, with their candidates performance in last night's debate on foreign policy, let's inject a little common sense before kneeling at the alter...

1.) Benghazi, Libya--Our embassy was attacked by terrorist's on the anniversary of 9/11, resulting in the four deaths of American citizens! The Obama administration denied repeated requests to get more security for the compound and claimed that the attack was the result of a video for two weeks afterward! Now the say it was terrorism! An investigation is ongoing.

2.) Border agent Brian Terry was killed by a Mexican drug cartel, who was armed with automatic weapons supplied by our own Department of Justice in Operation Fast & Furious. Eric Holder, the Attorney General of the U.S. and the Obama administration, are the one's at fault for this travesty, but have repeatedly refused to take responsibility! An investigation is ongoing.

3.) The refusal of the Obama administration, of working with the Canadian's to get the Keystone pipeline started, has resulted in an estimated 60,000 U.S. jobs lost and energy independence in this country has stalled because of it.

4.) Obama gives countries like Brazil, Columbia and Mexico, billions of dollars in taxpayer money, to drill, while he blocks permits here in the U.S.!

5.) Obama said he would stop the war in Iraq and he did, but proceeded to take our troops from there and put them in Afghanistan, where we continue to occupy that country and spend billions doing it!

6.) The current administration has promised to deplete our nuclear arsenal from over 5,000 operational nukes to about 1,500! And while I'm all for less nukes in the world, other dangerous countries like Russia, China, Pakistan and North Korea are not going to deplete theirs! This makes us weak and vulnerable!

Obama talks the talk but he doesn't walk the walk, when it comes to foreign policy! What he conveyed to the American people last night was a smokescreen and people shouldn't take him at face value! Together, with his policies at home and abroad, this president is a disappointing disaster and the worst president since Jimmy Carter!

 

[Bobcat]

Romney won. Obama looked like a petulent child.

 

[cpwill]

Obama made some condescending remarks on that, but I will give Obama credit for his point about capability being the primary factor in determining materiel decisions. That is true. But typically it is not the president that decides this stuff, it's Congress who have heavy defense constituencies in their states.

If you have one boat and it is the most capable boat in the entire world, it still can't be in 5 places at once. Ships have deployment schedules just like Units do - everything and everybody needs refit and training.

 

[American]

If you have one boat and it is the most capable boat in the entire world, it still can't be in 5 places at once. Ships have deployment schedules just like Units do - everything and everybody needs refit and training.

Sorry, I meant overall capabilities, not the capability of a single weapons system. If we need 10 aircraft carriers, then that is determine by the overall capabilities need for whatever the mission is. Like, a two front war, etc.

 

[Helix]

it seems that both campaigns are now in agreement about a definite end date for Afghanistan and sanctions for Iran, at least for this week.

 

[PeteEU]

it seems that both campaigns are now in agreement about a definite end date for Afghanistan and sanctions for Iran, at least for this week.

Romney will flip-flop today or tomorrow on this.. no worries.

 

[AdamT]

Romney won. Obama looked like a petulent child.

And the sun rises once again.

 

[cpwill]

Sorry, I meant overall capabilities, not the capability of a single weapons system. If we need 10 aircraft carriers, then that is determine by the overall capabilities need for whatever the mission is. Like, a two front war, etc.

Well, we already had to give up on the Two Wars and an Operation model under this President. Now we are down to One War and a Contingency. Currently we are scheduled to give up one of those, as well. So our capabilities set (which you are right, is a sharply distinct concept from system capability, sorry I didn't catch that) has already been reduced to a post-WWII low, and is slated to fall further.

 

[Amigo]

I think I will sit back and wait for the ELECTION, come back! See ya DPers!

 

[cpwill]

it seems that both campaigns are now in agreement about a definite end date for Afghanistan and sanctions for Iran, at least for this week.

Yeah. that's one of the reasons a FP debate was sort of doomed - there isn't the same kind of fundamental disagreement there as there is in domestic policy - just differences in how to achieve the same goals.