Ferguson: Rioters or Victims?

[grip]

There have been two deaths of unarmed, young black males in the last two years that have resulted in intense national debates and protests, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. Did the young men deserve to be killed? I don't know about 'deserved', but it was definitely a tragedy in both cases. Attacking someone with a gun is a good way to get shot, and in both cases the law has cleared the shooters.

The question isn't as much about- were they justified or even necessary killings, but what's causing the angst and racial divide of the subject? You can dismiss the protesting rioters as criminals and opportunists that are biased. But with disagreement on this scale, you've got to ponder, is there any other reasons for the perceived overuse of force and injustice?

I've agreed in both cases that the shooters probably shouldn't have used lethal force, but their self defense with firearms didn't rise to the level of intentional criminal acts. Though, I can't help but wonder why so many people see it as a different situation, and it makes me question.. what is the deeper systemic problem at the root of the dissension? How poor and angry are these people to be looting small items from local stores?

There's a connection between the minority poverty trap cycle, feelings of helplessness and criminal profiling as a result. There's no particular group or persons to blame, it's caused by human imperfections and life. But we can make strides towards improving conditions. The issues aren't just black & white, they're about green and paper (currency). The current system punishes anyone who isn't connected, fortunate, educated or can't make it because of other circumstances. There's no excuse for crime and acts of violence, but are there reasons?

I think Pope Francis has identified the basis of the problem in a recent comment about Europe. We're not human centric anymore, and don't base our civilization on human value, as much as material and monetary wealth. Though there has always been a form of productive capitalism and trade among societies, it was centered on benefiting the overall good of the populace, not just the individual and elite groups, or at creating these huge gaps of prosperity, division and control, which increases crime and violence.

Quote from Pope Francis: The “great ideas which once inspired Europe,” he said, seem to have been replaced “by the bureaucratic technicalities of its institutions.”

The results of this ageing are tragic. “Men and women risk being reduced to mere cogs in a machine that treats them as items of consumption to be exploited,” Francis said. Because of this, “whenever a human life no longer proves useful for that machine, it is discarded with few qualms,"

The Pope decried situations in which “human beings are treated as objects whose conception, configuration and utility can be programmed, and who can then be discarded when no longer useful, due to weakness, illness or old age.”

“What kind of dignity is there,” the Pope asked, “without the possibility of freely expressing one’s thought or professing one’s religious faith? What dignity can there be without a clear juridical framework which limits the rule of force and enables the rule of law to prevail over the power of tyranny?”

“The time has come,” the Pope concluded, “to work together in building a Europe which revolves not around the economy, but around the sacredness of the human person, around inalienable values.”

Pope Francis to European Union: Keep Democracy Alive!

Is the Pope right, are we losing our soul over misguided priorities?

 

[CRUE CAB]

Yes, they deserved to be killed.

 

[grip]

Yes, they deserved to be killed.

Explain.

 

[joko104]

"Deserved" is the wrong word. The question is the right of self defense of the person defending himself, not did the criminal shot "deserve" to be shot.

Did Zimmerman "deserve" to have his face based in and head beat against the concrete? Did the officer deserve to be smashed in the face by a 300 pound man? It has nothing to do with the word "deserve." That is just a false word-game shift. It has to do with the right of "self defense" and right of "self preservation."

It is notable in both those instances the physical violence was instigated by the one ultimately shot. Had that person not instigated physical violence no one would have been shot nor hurt.

 

[lizzie]

The question isn't as much about- were they justified or even necessary killings, but what's causing the angst and racial divide of the subject? You can dismiss the protesting rioters as criminals and opportunists that are biased. But with disagreement on this scale, you've got to ponder, is there any other reasons for the perceived overuse of force and injustice?

I've agreed in both cases that the shooters probably shouldn't have used lethal force, but their self defense with firearms didn't rise to the level of intentional criminal acts. Though, I can't help but wonder why so many people see it as a different situation, and it makes me question.. what is the deeper systemic problem at the root of the dissension? How poor and angry are these people to be looting small items from local stores?

Regardless of being poor and angry, that is no reason to destroy the property of others, or to cause them physical harm. This issue will never go away in our society. The divide is too great, and we are far too diverse nationally to ever come together. There is essentially nothing else that can be done, short of paying people just to exist, and that still does not fix the underlying and deep-seated problems. It isn't a problem of being poor, and it isn't a problem of being black. If that were the case, then we would see the same problems in other minority populations, and we don't see the same level, and in the case of Asian immigrants, as a group, they are often superior in how they adapt and function in this society. It all boils down to the individual and how he functions, and what his values are. It isn't a problem that government can fix, and I sure as hell don't want criminals to be ignored or go free, just because we feel like there is a disproportionate racial balance in the criminal justice system.

As for cops- if you don't make them feel like you are a threat, you aren't going to get shot.

 

[joko104]

I could post MANY, MANY links of people beaten to death by an unarmed man MUCH smaller than Brown. I also could link to instances of police officers shot and killed by their own sidearm when they did decide they could just fight-it-out with an unarmed attacker or attackers.

If 300 pound Michael Brown attacked you and you had a handgun, could YOU stop him from taking it from you and shooting you with your own gun? THAT is the reality that officer faced - or at least there is reasonable doubt that is what he faced. If so, he had to decide whether he dies or he shoots Brown so he doesn't keep killed by his own sidearm.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Explain.

Once you attack someone, you get what you get. If you die getting it, too bad.

 

[grip]

Regardless of being poor and angry, that is no reason to destroy the property of others, or to cause them physical harm. This issue will never go away in our society. The divide is too great, and we are far too diverse nationally to ever come together. There is essentially nothing else that can be done, short of paying people just to exist, and that still does not fix the underlying and deep-seated problems. It isn't a problem of being poor, and it isn't a problem of being black. If that were the case, then we would see the same problems in other minority populations, and we don't see the same level, and in the case of Asian immigrants, as a group, they are often superior in how they adapt and function in this society. It all boils down to the individual and how he functions, and what his values are. It isn't a problem that government can fix, and I sure as hell don't want criminals to be ignored or go free, just because we feel like there is a disproportionate racial balance in the criminal justice system.

As for cops- if you don't make them feel like you are a threat, you aren't going to get shot.

And yet he we are and it's not getting better, is it? This particular event may be racially ignited but 47 million Americans are stuck below the poverty line. Poor and angry is not what you want for that many people.

Maybe we should start trying to figure something out?

 

[kamikaze483]

There have been two deaths of unarmed, young black males in the last two years that have resulted in intense national debates and protests, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. Did the young men deserve to be killed? I don't know about 'deserved', but it was definitely a tragedy in both cases. Attacking someone with a gun is a good way to get shot, and in both cases the law has cleared the shooters.

The question isn't as much about- were they justified or even necessary killings, but what's causing the angst and racial divide of the subject? You can dismiss the protesting rioters as criminals and opportunists that are biased. But with disagreement on this scale, you've got to ponder, is there any other reasons for the perceived overuse of force and injustice?

I've agreed in both cases that the shooters probably shouldn't have used lethal force, but their self defense with firearms didn't rise to the level of intentional criminal acts. Though, I can't help but wonder why so many people see it as a different situation, and it makes me question.. what is the deeper systemic problem at the root of the dissension? How poor and angry are these people to be looting small items from local stores?

There's a connection between the minority poverty trap cycle, feelings of helplessness and criminal profiling as a result. There's no particular group or persons to blame, it's caused by human imperfections and life. But we can make strides towards improving conditions. The issues aren't just black & white, they're about green and paper (currency). The current system punishes anyone who isn't connected, fortunate, educated or can't make it because of other circumstances. There's no excuse for crime and acts of violence, but are there reasons?

I think Pope Francis has identified the basis of the problem in a recent comment about Europe. We're not human centric anymore, and don't base our civilization on human value, as much as material and monetary wealth. Though there has always been a form of productive capitalism and trade among societies, it was centered on benefiting the overall good of the populace, not just the individual and elite groups, or at creating these huge gaps of prosperity, division and control, which increases crime and violence.






Is the Pope right, are we losing our soul over misguided priorities?

This is mob mentality. At the time of the shooting, the narrative was decided and spread like a plague through the whole of Ferguson and, endemically, with no basis in fact (as there were no facts available at the time), the tentacles of the flawed narrative grasped the country.

In the same way that a rumor caused unjustified rioting in August, the same rumor allowed for a demand for an indictment, regardless of the facts, and opportunistic riots thereafter. The property destruction was not even directed toward those with the position and authority to effect change. The victims of arson and theft and vandalism were largely minority business owners.

Until people begin to realize the fault that people have over their own circumstances, the screams of racism and bigotry will continue- with no need or obligation to consider the facts. Racism has become an excuse for laziness and bad behavior.

 

[lizzie]

And yet he we are and it's not getting better, is it? This particular event may be racially ignited but 47 million Americans are stuck below the poverty line. Poor and angry is not what you want for that many people.

Maybe we should start trying to figure something out?

It's not going to get better. At a certain point, people have to take the ball and run with it.

 

[tres borrachos]

And yet he we are and it's not getting better, is it? This particular event may be racially ignited but 47 million Americans are stuck below the poverty line. Poor and angry is not what you want for that many people.

Maybe we should start trying to figure something out?

There are an awful lot of poor people in this country. Most of them don't go rioting, looting, destroying other peoples' property, and screaming to burn their towns down. You can be poor. You don't have to act like a piece of garbage.

These people who are destroying Ferguson are only victims of their own stupidity.

 

[grip]

It's not going to get better. At a certain point, people have to take the ball and run with it.

You could be right, I don't see it getting better either. People follow human nature to closely and will look to the system to self correct.

 

[lizzie]

You could be right, I don't see it getting better either. People follow human nature to closely and will look to the system to self correct.

It isn't a problem of the "system". It's a problem of individuals. We have essentially done everything that we can legally, to empower people to be successful, rather than settling for the status quo, and remaining static.

 

[grip]

There are an awful lot of poor people in this country. Most of them don't go rioting, looting, destroying other peoples' property, and screaming to burn their towns down. You can be poor. You don't have to act like a piece of garbage.

These people who are destroying Ferguson are only victims of their own stupidity.

Not yet. Get them desperate enough, especially by eliminating social programs and it will get bad quickly.

 

[grip]

It isn't a problem of the "system". It's a problem of individuals. We have essentially done everything that we can legally, to empower people to be successful, rather than settling for the status quo, and remaining static.

The system is made up of individuals. And not everyone would agree they've been given equal opportunities, due to unequal circumstances. Life isn't always fair, nor are people.

 

[lizzie]

The system is made up of individuals. And not everyone would agree they've been given equal opportunities, due to unequal circumstances. Life isn't always fair, nor are people.

No, life isn't fair. It never has been fair. The opportunities are there, but you have to reach out and grab them. The barriers which were there 70 years ago, are no longer there. If you want to take on someone to raise, and give them a life that they aren't willing to grab for themselves, then I think you should do that. I came from poor. I came from uneducated. I had to find my own way, and I know that others can do the same.

 

[tres borrachos]

Not yet. Get them desperate enough, especially by eliminating social programs and it will get bad quickly.

Well then that's a sad commentary on our country that we have to bribe people into decent behavior through social programs.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Michael Brown attacked a cop and tried to take his weapon. For that bit of stupidity, he was shot in self defense by the officer. Those are the facts of the case of Michael Brown.

The only "victims" in this story are the owners of businesses that were looted and burned. The looters have no justification for what they are doing, none at all. People do have a right to carry signs and protest, of course, even though they're wrong. Freedom of speech doesn't require that the speaker be correct.

But, looting and setting fires is not demonstration. It is criminal activity and should be treated as such.

 

[lizzie]

Not yet. Get them desperate enough, especially by eliminating social programs and it will get bad quickly.

That makes them no better than the looters and rioters. That's essentially what we created with our social welfare programs. They were formed with great intentions, but without the foresight to understand that giving people stuff doesn't make them better people, and it doesn't make them appreciative to live in a generous society. It creates a bad attitude, and an entitlement mentality, which in turn creates people who will coerce those who take care of him, with the threat of violence. NOt a very pretty picture, is it?

 

[ocean515]

Not yet. Get them desperate enough, especially by eliminating social programs and it will get bad quickly.

That suggests social programs aren't the answer, doesn't it? Provide an opportunity for people to chart their own course without dependence on some bureaucratic nightmare, and desperation will apply to something else altogether.

 

[grip]

Well then that's a sad commentary on our country that we have to bribe people into decent behavior through social programs.

That makes them no better than the looters and rioters. That's essentially what we created with our social welfare programs. They were formed with great intentions, but without the foresight to understand that giving people stuff doesn't make them better people, and it doesn't make them appreciative to live in a generous society. It creates a bad attitude, and an entitlement mentality, which in turn creates people who will coerce those who take care of him, with the threat of violence. NOt a very pretty picture, is it?

How the gov't/ corporate leadership divvy up the spoils is based on an increasingly lopsided and biased system. There were demonstrations in over 130 cities last night, and if things don't change in time, it'll get worse.

 

[lizzie]

How the gov't/ corporate leadership divvy up the spoils is based on an increasingly lopsided and biased system. There were demonstrations in over 130 cities last night, and if things don't change in time, it'll get worse.

Then let it. It will eventually be resolved.

 

[grip]

Then let it. It will eventually be resolved.

When my sister and I were kids, we'd fight in the back of the car on vacation trips. My dad would ask "what's going on?" Then I would say 'she did this', and she would say 'he did that', and my father would say 'since I can't tell who did what, I'm going to kick everyone's ass, until it stops!' And it always stopped.

Life doesn't care if it's a white vs black, or poor vs rich, or cop vs criminal, it's going to kick ALL our asses, till it stops.

 

[lizzie]

Life doesn't care if it's a white vs black, or poor vs rich, or cop vs criminal, it's going to kick ALL our asses, till it stops.

That's right, and your value isn't in your skin color, or in your background. It's in what you do with your life.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

There have been two deaths of unarmed, young black males in the last two years that have resulted in intense national debates and protests, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. Did the young men deserve to be killed? I don't know about 'deserved', but it was definitely a tragedy in both cases. Attacking someone with a gun is a good way to get shot, and in both cases the law has cleared the shooters.

[cut for space]

Is the Pope right, are we losing our soul over misguided priorities?

You have several questions so I'll answer them all.

1. "Rioters or victims?" Some of the people protesting in Ferguson are both rioters and victims, some were neither rioters nor victims, some were rioters but not victims, some were victims but not rioters. The only people in Ferguson who were victims of the specific injustice being protested there were the Black protesters. Some of those protesters were rioters and others were not.

2. "Did the young men deserve to be killed?" I'm uncomfortable with the word "deserve" in that context for anyone. I don't think anyone ever deserves to be killed. A question that I'm more apt to view the lens of killing through is : Was it justified? I do not believe the either Martin's or Brown's killing was justified. I believe that lethal force was used against both when other options were available.

3. "What is the deeper systemic problem at the root of the dissension? How poor and angry are these people to be looting small items from local stores?" The deeper systemic problem is institutional racism which has been demonstrated by research that you can find if you want to. The looting is probably not about being poor so much as it is about not having respect for an environment that you feel has no respect for you. Ferguson was a power keg. The prosecutor lit that powder keg during his derisive "speech".

4. "Is the Pope right, are we losing our soul over misguided priorities?" I don't think our priorities have ever been right so I don't think "we" ever had a soul to lose in the first place.