Federal Judge Blocks Lake Elsinore From Erecting Veteran's Monument

[RabidAlpaca]

The crosses on the monument represent the dead, not Jesus. It is a stupid issue by eggshell atheists who somehow are never offended enough not to be paid in money with the "In God We Trust" on it.

the idea of congress shall make no laws, was to prevent a STATE religion, like the church of England, not to bar religion.

individual states had religions after the constitution becuase the bill of rights did not apply to states.

Nope, I think it's sad that today we interpret the Constitution to mean that you can't have any kind of religious symbol on public land. The government isn't making a law establishing or respecting religion. People are oversensitive and the courts typically cave in.

If you guys want a memorial with jesus and friends on it, you can pool your money together and make your own.

The fact that you people want me to pay for your religious symbols blows my mind. Yeah, you're real oppressed.

 

[Peter King]

I am an atheist and I do not see an issue with the cross being on front of the monument as it only symbolizes a grave of a soldier, it does not promote christianity or to infer that christians are worth more than other faiths (or people who have no religion).

Maybe they should have stuck with the original design. It would have prevented this lawsuit and made it a monument with no problems or issues that could lead to a lawsuit.

 

[Somerville]

And just to keep everyone's panties from getting knotted up, just replace the cross with this:

That way, everyone can shut up, stop bickering over nothing, and everyone goes home happy.

Exactly what has been suggested - but the hard core xians are fighting to retain the crosses on the monument

 

[Somerville]

It goes well beyond that. People see a cross these days, and they lose their ****ing minds, just like the conditioned little doggies they are. It's a universal symbol for a grave marker, and has been for a very long time. If people can't get over that, then they have my pity.

The cross IS NOT an "universal symbol for a grave marker". Because you haven't visited cemeteries in other nations to see the wide range of grave markers and because you appear to believe that what one sees in American cemeteries is universal - don't make it so. Even in American cemeteries, the cross is not that prevalent - and if you show us a photo from a military cemetery to "prove" your point, you have failed.

 

[Surtr]

The cross IS NOT an "universal symbol for a grave marker".

Really? You mean to tell me that if you came across this:

you wouldn't know where to begin on figuring out what it is?

Because you haven't visited cemeteries in other nations to see the wide range of grave markers and because you appear to believe that what one sees in American cemeteries is universal - don't make it so. Even in American cemeteries, the cross is not that prevalent

First off, I have been to cemeteries in both South Korea and Canada. Guess what? They use crosses as grave markers too. In any given cemetery in the United States, you will find many different crosses, and tombstones with crosses engraved on them. You would have a much harder time finding a cemetery completely devoid of the cross. Your abysmal state of denial is proof of nothing.

and if you show us a photo from a military cemetery to "prove" your point, you have failed.

You don't get to set the rules or standards of this discussion. Especially when it's something as ludicrous as excluding military cemeteries to be used as an example for a memorial to dead Service Members. Guess what the cross on that memorial looks like? It's not just any cross, it's an Arlington cross.

 

[Surtr]

It's only universal because of the violent dominance of Christianity, murdering anyone who wouldn't submit to its authority and burying them under crosses if they bothered to bury them at all. Tradition doesn't mean right.

But it is tradition, so deal with it. Putting a cross on a memorial oppresses no one, nor does it establish or prohibit any religion.

 

[Surtr]

I am an atheist and I do not see an issue with the cross being on front of the monument as it only symbolizes a grave of a soldier, it does not promote christianity or to infer that christians are worth more than other faiths (or people who have no religion).

Maybe they should have stuck with the original design. It would have prevented this lawsuit and made it a monument with no problems or issues that could lead to a lawsuit.

The original design was just the Soldier kneeling before a cross. The additional field of crosses was added to symbolize the cemetery at Omaha Beach. The people who have a problem with the memorial would throw a fit over it either way.

 

[Somerville]

First - a fine example of absolutist thinking. I have never said you would find a "cemetery completely devoid of the cross", although I can think of a few countries where it might be true.

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South Korean military cemetery

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old Japanese cemetary

MY point is that the cross is a western item (Europe - Americas, not the "Wild West" of history) and not every person in the west is a xian, so why must a memorial to those who died in service to this nation only honour one religious belief?



These are the markers for men who served this nation and two of them died in that service. Does the Christian cross represent them?

 

[Peter King]

The original design was just the Soldier kneeling before a cross. The additional field of crosses was added to symbolize the cemetery at Omaha Beach. The people who have a problem with the memorial would throw a fit over it either way.

In April of 2012, the Lake Elsinore City Council beganpublicly discussing the possibility of creating a monument tohonor local military veterans. On May 7, 2012, the City Council directed City staff to research potential designsfor the monument. In response, City staff prepared a report that was presented to the City Council at a meeting on July 10, 2012. The report proposed three design possibilities for the Lake Elsinore Memorial: a rectangular slab, a pentagonal slab, and an obelisk-shaped slab.Each proposed monument included the text: “Lake Elsinore Veterans Memorial. This Memorial is dedicated to the men and women who served in our armed services. We shall never forget! Each proposed monument also included the City’s crest and the insignias of all five branches of the military, but was otherwise devoid of images or text.

I see here a text, the city's crest and the insignias of all five branches of the military but otherwise devoid of images or text, that would seem that the original design did not include a kneeling soldier in front of a cross.

 

[Surtr]

First - a fine example of absolutist thinking. I have never said you would find a "cemetery completely devoid of the cross", although I can think of a few countries where it might be true.

View attachment 67151580​

South Korean military cemetery

View attachment 67151583​

old Japanese cemetary

This cemetery is in India:

Pakistan:

MY point is that the cross is a western item (Europe - Americas, not the "Wild West" of history) and not every person in the west is a xian, so why must a memorial to those who died in service to this nation only honour one religious belief?

Incorrect. Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion that was later adopted by European nations. Get your facts straight. Furthermore, the memorial isn't about religion at all, and the only ones bitching about it are extremists like you who go out of your way to get offended. You, and others like you, would rather bitch and moan about a cross than honor the dead because the memorial design invokes a widely recognized military symbol of sacrifice that antitheists hate. It's pathetic.

 

[Somerville]

In the minds of the town council of Elsinore, CA, it is all about THEIR religion. Their own words confirm that. For many Americans who have served, the cross does not honour their service.

 

[Surtr]

I see here a text, the city's crest and the insignias of all five branches of the military but otherwise devoid of images or text, that would seem that the original design did not include a kneeling soldier in front of a cross.

The memorial’s original design consisted of a black granite slab depicting a soldier kneeling in front of a cross. It has since been updated to have a field of crosses and Stars of David. The symbols are intended to represent grave markers for fallen U.S. soldiers in overseas World War II cemeteries.

It certainly seems that the news isn't reliable on this case, because a different article stated:

The memorial’s original design consisted of a black granite slab depicting a soldier kneeling in front of a cross. It has since been updated to have a field of crosses and Stars of David. The symbols are intended to represent grave markers for fallen U.S. soldiers in overseas World War II cemeteries.

Given the historical context, city officials -- with the support of the Pacific Justice Institute -- reasoned that the design would not violate laws that prohibit government agencies from employing religious symbolism.

 

[Peter King]

It certainly seems that the news isn't reliable on this case, because a different article stated:

I was quoting the verdict of the judge in the case regarding this monument.

 

[Surtr]

In the minds of the town council of Elsinore, CA, it is all about THEIR religion. Their own words confirm that. For many Americans who have served, the cross does not honour their service.

So what? They're Christians appealing to a Christian voter base. Actions speak louder than words and symbols, and the actions of antitheist extremists have spoken volumes here. You people don't care about the United States, or the men who died for this country. It's blatantly apparent in the fact that you can't just set aside differences when there's a much greater cause at hand. Like I said before. It's pathetic. You're wrapped up in how much you hate the cross that you thought it was a European thing. I can't tell if you just have a horribly unhealthy fixation, or you really just have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Somerville]

So what? They're Christians appealing to a Christian voter base. Actions speak louder than words and symbols, and the actions of antitheist extremists have spoken volumes here. You people don't care about the United States, or the men who died for this country. It's blatantly apparent in the fact that you can't just set aside differences when there's a much greater cause at hand. Like I said before. It's pathetic. You're wrapped up in how much you hate the cross that you thought it was a European thing. I can't tell if you just have a horribly unhealthy fixation, or you really just have no idea what you're talking about.

If you are really interested in this case, you might wish to read the judge's injunction which is linked on the OP. Here's a quote from the injunction

Before continuing, Councilmember Melendez turned to the city attorney and asked, “is that an issue?,” to which the city attorney responded “yes.” Melendez followed up by asking “So, it’s not allowed to be on there, by law?”, to which the city attorney responded “It’s something that we should evaluate, but it is an issue . . . . If what you want is a yes/no answer, right now, the answer is, it cannot be there.”

Calm down and drop the accusations of bias please.

 

[Surtr]

If you are really interested in this case, you might wish to read the judge's injunction which is linked on the OP. Here's a quote from the injunction


Calm down and drop the accusations of bias please.

I'm not making an accusation of bias. I'm stating my observation that the antitheists uncompromising hatred for all things religion in this country is a pathetic fixation on the irrelevant that accomplishes nothing.

 

[Somerville]

I'm not making an accusation of bias. I'm stating my observation that the antitheists uncompromising hatred for all things religion in this country is a pathetic fixation on the irrelevant that accomplishes nothing.

Our "pathetic fixation" is nothing more than an attempt to include all Americans in public matters, not just the majority.

Your observation is distorted by the Goggles of Truth. The recommendation is to remove them in order that you may see the real world.

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[Grendel]

I'm an atheist, and former Soldier who has absolutely no issue with the cross being used in a memorial for those killed in action. It's pathetic that people in this country would rather bitch about symbolism than honor their dead.

If the government wanted to honor the dead, they wouldn't have intentionally used religious symbolism in the monument. These people were just itching for a fight.

But that aside there are multiple forms of speech that is allowed by the free speeh clause in the first amendment. Displaying this memorial would fall under it just as much as flag burning does.

The free speech clause applies to the people, not to the government. The government doesn't have rights, it has powers, and this isn't one of their powers. If the Mayor wants to stick this thing in his own front yard, he's completely free to do so. That's free speech. If he wants to stick it in our public property, though, it's not free speech because it's not the action of an individual citizen, it's the action of the government.

The inability to distinguish between a citizen and the government is where religious conservatives keep stumbling

Edit to add:

From the OP:

we as Christians [ . . . ] as a Christian nation,

That's where these knuckleheads keep failing. We're not a Christian nation. We are, and have always been, a secular nation. It may be a nation populated primarily by Christians, but it is not a Christian nation.