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Federal Judge Blocks Lake Elsinore From Erecting Veteran's Monument

Somerville

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More Christian "oppression"!!! :roll:

(full title didn't fit the box)
Federal Judge Blocks Lake Elsinore From Erecting Veteran's Monument Containing Religious Symbols

vet monument.jpg
An artist's rendering of the proposed monument​

UPDATED AT 7:15 p.m. July 17, 2013: The city of Lake Elsinore's proposed granite monument saluting veterans is an unconstitutional display by the municipality because it sends an "unmistakably religious message" that city leaders overtly support, according to a federal judge's written ruling published today.

U.S. District Judge Stephen Wilson, based at the federal courthouse in downtown Los Angeles, granted a preliminary injunction sought by two Lake Elsinore residents represented by the American Humanist Association, which challenged the proposed $50,000 monument that the city intended to place at the entrance to The Diamond Stadium.
The full ruling by the federal judge may be read here

Though the legal group defending the city is now claiming the cross is a reference to the Normandy cemeteries for WWII casualties in Europe, the actual words of the Mayor and various city council persons show that they wanted the cross on the monument for very specific religious advocacy reasons.

from the ruling
Then-Mayor Pro Tem Hickman stated, “I feel sorry for us that we as Christians cannot show the cross because [of] the First Amendment, okay, it really is a shame that our society is leaning that way.” Councilmember Melendez stated that it was a“sad reflection on our society when as a Christian nation, one of the principles upon which we were founded is something we are forced to hide in society specifically with reverence to our veterans, the very people who have fought to protect our religious freedom…”

At that point, Councilmember Robert Magee made a motion to continue the item and direct City staff to discuss the design with regard to the “religious references.” Mayor ProTem Hickman objected, stating “I’m not going to sit here and wait for people to denigrate my beliefs, okay, and so I’ll give them two weeks.” Mayor Tisdale suggested that it would not be possible to have a new design in two weeks; Mayor Pro Tem Hickman responded, “Then we don’t have to change it.”…

Councilmember Melendez noted that the cross had been “controversial” but that the monument, as proposed, honored “all veterans,” and concluded that Monument had “nothing to do with religion.”
 

digsbe

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What a shame :(
 

digsbe

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I hope that was meant in an ironic manner
Nope, I think it's sad that today we interpret the Constitution to mean that you can't have any kind of religious symbol on public land. The government isn't making a law establishing or respecting religion. People are oversensitive and the courts typically cave in.
 

Master PO

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the idea of congress shall make no laws, was to prevent a STATE religion, like the church of England, not to bar religion.

individual states had religions after the constitution becuase the bill of rights did not apply to states.
 

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Nope, I think it's sad that today we interpret the Constitution to mean that you can't have any kind of religious symbol on public land. The government isn't making a law establishing or respecting religion. People are oversensitive and the courts typically cave in.

That's sad. Why should taxpayers pay for one religion's symbols when they may not believe in that religion?

yes, the majority of veterans are Xians but not all - so how is a monument with one faith's symbol supposed to honour those other veterans?

There are 58 presently approved symbols indicating the beliefs of the veteran being honoured in military cemetaries - Available Emblems of Belief for Placement on Government Headstones and Markers - National Cemetery Administration

How would the monument in question honour the memory of US Army Captain Humayun S M Khan? How does a Christian cross honour the memories of Wiccan veterans? Wiccan Pentacles at Arlington, and Why Litigation Was Necessary
 

Paschendale

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Two simple choices. First, put it on private land and pay for it with private dollars. Second, don't invoke religion on it. Two very easy choices. Pick one.
 

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does that sentiment go for Arlington National Cemetery too?
Why are you mentioning Arlington? Didn't you notice my earlier post about all of the religious symbols found on individuals grave markers?

There is a difference between a person's tombstone and a large "memorial" to multiple persons, not all of whom would be members of the religion featured on the monument.
 

Paschendale

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does that sentiment go for Arlington National Cemetery too?
Why are you mentioning Arlington? Didn't you notice my earlier post about all of the religious symbols found on individuals grave markers?

There is a difference between a person's tombstone and a large "memorial" to multiple persons, not all of whom would be members of the religion featured on the monument.
I definitely think that a cemetery, where each individual person's faith or whatever is represented, according to their wishes, is different from suggesting that a single moment that evokes a specific religious bent can speak for everyone. A cemetery is a good example of a way that a religious symbol can be in the public sphere without being an attempt to promote that religion through public use of resources.
 

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The crosses on the monument represent the dead, not Jesus. It is a stupid issue by eggshell atheists who somehow are never offended enough not to be paid in money with the "In God We Trust" on it.
 

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The crosses on the monument represent the dead, not Jesus. It is a stupid issue by eggshell atheists who somehow are never offended enough not to be paid in money with the "In God We Trust" on it.
The "crosses on the monument" represent the Muslim, the Jewish, the pagan, the atheist dead? Seriously? What if it was the star and crescent of the Islamic faith? Would that represent the dead also?

Why do some xians continue to deny the words spoken by those promoting this specific "memorial"? They weren't thinking of ALL of the dead veterans, they wanted to represent Christianity, their own words show that such was their intent.

Mayor ProTem Hickman objected, stating “I’m not going to sit here and wait for people to denigrate my beliefs, okay
 

Kal'Stang

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The seperation of church and state was never meant to be used to stop any government official/s from endorsing a particular religion. It was to stop the government from enacting LAWS protecting or damaging any particular or multiple religions.

In fact I believe that by enforcing that clause in such a way it is also violating the 1st amendments freedom of speech clause. Do people really think that the Founders were so stupid as to put contradictory clauses in the same amendment?
 

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The seperation of church and state was never meant to be used to stop any government official/s from endorsing a particular religion. It was to stop the government from enacting LAWS protecting or damaging any particular or multiple religions.

In fact I believe that by enforcing that clause in such a way it is also violating the 1st amendments freedom of speech clause. Do people really think that the Founders were so stupid as to put contradictory clauses in the same amendment?
Spending taxpayers funds for an artifact which promotes one specific religious belief, for some reason doesn't seem to me to fall under the "freedom of speech clause". The individual officials are not being stopped from speaking out on their faith, no matter how delusional said faith may be, they are simply being told you can't spend taxpayer dollars for a Christian monument.
 

Kal'Stang

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Spending taxpayers funds for an artifact which promotes one specific religious belief, for some reason doesn't seem to me to fall under the "freedom of speech clause". The individual officials are not being stopped from speaking out on their faith, no matter how delusional said faith may be, they are simply being told you can't spend taxpayer dollars for a Christian monument.
Taxpayer money is often spent on things which does not represent everyones beliefs. IE Just because taxpayer money is spent doesn't mean that that tax money represents everyones wishes/beliefs.

But that aside there are multiple forms of speech that is allowed by the free speeh clause in the first amendment. Displaying this memorial would fall under it just as much as flag burning does.

But of course, again, this is assuming that the 1st amendment was interpreted the way that it was MEANT to be interpreted. ;)
 

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Taxpayer money is often spent on things which does not represent everyones beliefs. IE Just because taxpayer money is spent doesn't mean that that tax money represents everyones wishes/beliefs. But that aside there are multiple forms of speech that is allowed by the free speeh clause in the first amendment. Displaying this memorial would fall under it just as much as flag burning does. But of course, again, this is assuming that the 1st amendment was interpreted the way that it was MEANT to be interpreted. ;)
I'd say not true when it comes to RELIGIOUS beliefs- yes when it comes to welfare or money spent building a huge military people object to that and their wishes go unheeded- but when it comes to religious beliefs.... well there is a line in the sand. The Westboro Baptist folks sure got their freedom to practice their religion- if you can call it that- curtailed.

It is odd so many claim this or that for a military memorial- I seem to recall a simple bayoneted weapon stuck into the ground, the man's steel helmet on top, a dog tag chain with one tag hanging down, sometimes a pair of boots in front. no cross, no star of david, no crescent and moon... it seems religious symbols are more favored by those farther removed from the battlefield or long after the battle has ended.
 

American

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More Christian "oppression"!!! :roll:

(full title didn't fit the box)


The full ruling by the federal judge may be read here

Though the legal group defending the city is now claiming the cross is a reference to the Normandy cemeteries for WWII casualties in Europe, the actual words of the Mayor and various city council persons show that they wanted the cross on the monument for very specific religious advocacy reasons.

from the ruling
What Did Alexander Hamilton Think of the French Revolution? - The Federalist Papers

Atheism was a detractor of the French Revolution.
 

Surtr

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I definitely think that a cemetery, where each individual person's faith or whatever is represented, according to their wishes, is different from suggesting that a single moment that evokes a specific religious bent can speak for everyone. A cemetery is a good example of a way that a religious symbol can be in the public sphere without being an attempt to promote that religion through public use of resources.
I'm an atheist, and former Soldier who has absolutely no issue with the cross being used in a memorial for those killed in action. It's pathetic that people in this country would rather bitch about symbolism than honor their dead.
 

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And just to keep everyone's panties from getting knotted up, just replace the cross with this:



That way, everyone can shut up, stop bickering over nothing, and everyone goes home happy.
 

Paschendale

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I'm an atheist, and former Soldier who has absolutely no issue with the cross being used in a memorial for those killed in action. It's pathetic that people in this country would rather bitch about symbolism than honor their dead.
And you can absolutely make that choice for yourself. But don't presume to make it for other people. That's all anyone really is asking.
 

Surtr

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And you can absolutely make that choice for yourself. But don't presume to make it for other people. That's all anyone really is asking.
It goes well beyond that. People see a cross these days, and they lose their ****ing minds, just like the conditioned little doggies they are. It's a universal symbol for a grave marker, and has been for a very long time. If people can't get over that, then they have my pity.
 

Paschendale

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It goes well beyond that. People see a cross these days, and they lose their ****ing minds, just like the conditioned little doggies they are. It's a universal symbol for a grave marker, and has been for a very long time. If people can't get over that, then they have my pity.
It's only universal because of the violent dominance of Christianity, murdering anyone who wouldn't submit to its authority and burying them under crosses if they bothered to bury them at all. Tradition doesn't mean right.
 
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