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Fathers denied Reproductive Rights.

MrVicchio said:
This thread has nothing to do with a man having a say over a woman's body. Thanks for showing your inability or unwillingness to address the issue at hand. What this thread is about, is a woman having the ability to financially harm a man and he has no say in the matter where as if she chooses to escape said burdens, she has a legal opt out. Do try to keep up.
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It has everything to do with control over a woman's body. You are exerting the "it's not fair" defense for the man. Well suck it up. Men do not go through the physical burdon of pregnancy so they have no control over a woman's body, so they get the choice.

So what BOTH parents are left with is the need to support the child. BOTH parents. And frankly, from your original post, it is OBVIOUS you have no respect for that - you insinuated that a woman may not have this obligation.

What you call "financial harm" is simply the support of a child you created.

I have said this before, I do not think that when support goes to the legal system that it is fair to the dads. But frankly I think that has a lot to do with the attitude "well I didn't want it, why should I have to pay for it from 18--24 years".

I swear it is almost like men do not understand that their little swimmers have consequences. If you don't want children wear a condom. And seriously, wear a condom even it you know she is using birth control. If you do not want to accept the real life scenario that sexual activity can have decades long consequences, keep it zipped up.

But please. Stop with the "it's not fair" defense.
 
year2late said:
It has everything to do with control over a woman's body. You are exerting the "it's not fair" defense for the man. Well suck it up. Men do not go through the physical burdon of pregnancy so they have no control over a woman's body, so they get the choice.

So what BOTH parents are left with is the need to support the child. BOTH parents. And frankly, from your original post, it is OBVIOUS you have no respect for that - you insinuated that a woman may not have this obligation.

What you call "financial harm" is simply the support of a child you created.

I have said this before, I do not think that when support goes to the legal system that it is fair to the dads. But frankly I think that has a lot to do with the attitude "well I didn't want it, why should I have to pay for it from 18--24 years".

I swear it is almost like men do not understand that their little swimmers have consequences. If you don't want children wear a condom. And seriously, wear a condom even it you know she is using birth control. If you do not want to accept the real life scenario that sexual activity can have decades long consequences, keep it zipped up.

But please. Stop with the "it's not fair" defense.
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I don't want to go to the effort of turning this personal responsibility argument you're making on its head right now, but just so you know, thank you for making my anti-abortion argument for me.
 
Hdreamz said:
Their is no child, and no killing. Your use of vocabulary is disingenuous, and as far as the law goes joko is correct that men have the same right to abortion as women do.
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Exactly. There is nothing legally stopping a man from getting an abortion. He just has to get pregnant first.
 
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year2late said:
When a man is able o become physically pregnant, he can make the decision to abort.

How difficult is the concept. A man dies not have control over a woman's body.
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So then a woman shouldnt have control over a mans wallet
 
Hdreamz said:
That's probably because your not used to seeing common sense arguments, education can help here.
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Muphry's Law strikes again.
 
JayDubya said:
Muphry's Law strikes again.
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Its cute how you use insulting connotations and disingenuous language when people point out the inaccuracies in your argument, and then try to look like the bigger man... Hows that debate technique working out for you?
 
I don't have inaccuracies in my argument.

In this thread you have kept me quite busy correcting your errors, and the go far beyond spelling and punctuation.

For example, you stated that a homicide didn't involve killing...
 
Phil_Osophy said:
So then a woman shouldnt have control over a mans wallet
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This is not about the woman. It is about the child that needs to be supported by both parents.
 
digsbe said:
And a woman should not be able to decide what happens to the fetus' life and have it put down in ways we can't even execute the most inhumane killers on death row.

A woman can abort for emotional, personal, or any other reason besides being physically pregnant. How many times have we heard "it's a personal decision by the woman and she may not be ready for a child." Why can't the same mentality apply to a man? Truthfully neither should be allowed to have their child killed, but as the law stands it is unequal with men being denied the same "reproductive rights."
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Men have exactly the same legal rights. You cite a law preventing a man from having an abortion if you claim I'm wrong.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
So then a woman shouldnt have control over a mans wallet
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The woman has NO control over the man's wallet. None whatsoever. The government has control over both the bio-mother's and bio-father's wallet 100% exactly the same.

And everyone knows that. You just re-enforce what I often point out. For most men on these topics it's about hate of women, not about the "child" (born or "unborn") that most matters. The men don't give a **** about the child when it comes to themselves. Only about controlling the women.
 
year2late said:
This is not about the woman. It is about the child that needs to be supported by both parents.
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So both parents are to support it, but both parents dont get a choice in abortion? Even though both parents had to consent to have it in the first place?
 
joko104 said:
The woman has NO control over the man's wallet. None whatsoever. The government has control over both the bio-mother's and bio-father's wallet 100% exactly the same.

And everyone knows that. You just re-enforce what I often point out. For most men on these topics it's about hate of women, not about the "child" (born or "unborn") that most matters. The men don't give a **** about the child when it comes to themselves. Only about controlling the women.
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Absurdum. So now you accuse me of hating women and wanting to control them? Lmfao, seriously?
 
Phil_Osophy said:
So both parents are to support it, but both parents dont get a choice in abortion?
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Why should any man have any say in what a woman does with her own uterus? What could possibly give him that right?
 
Phil_Osophy said:
So both parents are to support it, but both parents dont get a choice in abortion? Even though both parents had to consent to have it in the first place?
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Both parents had to consent to the sexual act that created the child.

A man does not get a choice in abortion because he cannot control a woman's body. Why is this concept so difficult?

If you have sex with a woman and believe it is not your responsibility to support the children you create - whether you want them or not - you should get yourself snipped immediately.:doh

But more with the "it's not fair" defense. :roll:

Guys, if you want "not fair" ...try pre-eclampsia(and worrying if you will be alive to meet your child), a footling breach baby dancing on your bladder for 2 months, a c-section, and being so sleep deprived that when your baby cried for food you have to breastfeed him (again) that you just cry out of pure exhaustion. Pardon me if I shed no tears for you standing up to your personal obligation.

Men, man up. Support the children you create before the legal system does. And for christs sake...wear a flipping condom and stop pouting about that, too.

.
 
year2late said:
Both parents had to consent to the sexual act that created the child.

A man does not get a choice in abortion because he cannot control a woman's body. Why is this concept so difficult?

If you have sex with a woman and believe it is not your responsibility to support the children you create - whether you want them or not - you should get yourself snipped immediately.:doh

But more with the "it's not fair" defense. :roll:

Guys, if you want "not fair" ...try pre-eclampsia(and worrying if you will be alive to meet your child), a footling breach baby dancing on your bladder for 2 months, a c-section, and being so sleep deprived that when your baby cried for food you have to breastfeed him (again) that you just cry out of pure exhaustion. Pardon me if I shed no tears for you standing up to your personal obligation.

Men, man up. Support the children you create before the legal system does. And for christs sake...wear a flipping condom and stop pouting about that, too.

.
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Why do you hate males? Why do you want to deny men their reproductive rights? Men should be able to "abort" as it were, their rights and obligations for children they are not ready for and do not want.
 
MrVicchio said:
.....
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A woman has the right to abort a child she does not want, but a man is stuck paying the bill for a child he does not want.
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Each person should take responsibility for protecting themselves from getting pregnant. The man needs a condom and the women needs birth control. If the man depends on the woman's birth control and it fails, that unplanned pregnancy is still the result of a decision he made and he shares equal responsibility for the resulting pregnancy.

If the decision needs to be made concerning abortion vs birth, because the women is the only one who's body will have to endure either process the decision should be left to her.

As for financial responsibility, I could see a lesser financial responsibility on the part of the man if he claims he would have preferred an abortion but not zero responsibility. There are two reasons why.

One, no matter how empathetic a man is he will never know what decision he would truly make if he were caring the child. Many women don't understand the choice they would make themselves until actually faced with it. There is a very unique dimension added to the equation when you have a life growing inside of you as opposed to inside of someone else. So even if the man "says" he would abort or carry, if he were actually faced with that choice he may very likely change his mind. So I can't give a man's opinion on this a lot of credibility.

Two, he made the decision to have sex and whether he failed to use contraception or trusted the wrong person he is still half responsible for the outcome.
 
MrVicchio said:
A woman has the right to abort a child she does not want, but a man is stuck paying the bill for a child he does not want.

I.E. Consider the following real life scenarios.

Bill and Linda engage in consensual intercourse that results in a pregnancy. There are only five outcomes.

They both wish to have the child, and find a way to make this happen either through living together, marriage or another situation that works for both.

Linda wants the child Bill does not. Linda gives birth, Bill spends 18-24 years paying child support for a child he never wanted.

Bill Wants the child, Linda does not. Linda aborts. Bill loses a child

Linda does not want the child but gives the child up to Bill. Linda pays Child support (possible).

Linda cannot bring herself to abort, but neither want the child, it is given away for adoption.

In all of the above situations, after the intercourse, the ball is in HER court as to what happens for both of them, and the unborn.

Men should have the right to "abort" their rights and responsibilities as fathers. After all, fairs fair, and while it's not "their body" it is a major part of their reproductive rights.



I expect every pro-abortion person should support equality under the law (see the 14th Amendment for this.) and back giving fathers the right to abort as well.


(I know this is brining up an older subject, but it's been 13 months, and new blood around... I like this debate).
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I would agree with the addendum that he must make his decision within the period of time when the woman still has all options available to her, or subject to a conditional agreement dependent on the results of a paternity test.

If that were the reality, then I just don't buy the argument that the man is doing anything to harm the child, should the woman choose to have and keep the child and find herself without the means of proper support. She made the decision knowing all the factors in play.

By that rational, one could say women shouldn't be allowed to place a child up for adoption, since it is likely the child will need money from the state while it awaits placement. Or you could argue parents should never be allowed to be on any kind of assistance, since it's their child and the state shouldn't pay.

It's just a piss-poor reason to deny men any say in their own life or financial well-being.
 
opendebate said:
Each person should take responsibility for protecting themselves from getting pregnant. The man needs a condom and the women needs birth control. If the man depends on the woman's birth control and it fails, that unplanned pregnancy is still the result of a decision he made and he shares equal responsibility for the resulting pregnancy.

If the decision needs to be made concerning abortion vs birth, because the women is the only one who's body will have to endure either process the decision should be left to her.

As for financial responsibility, I could see a lesser financial responsibility on the part of the man if he claims he would have preferred an abortion but not zero responsibility. There are two reasons why.

One, no matter how empathetic a man is he will never know what decision he would truly make if he were caring the child. Many women don't understand the choice they would make themselves until actually faced with it. There is a very unique dimension added to the equation when you have a life growing inside of you as opposed to inside of someone else. So even if the man "says" he would abort or carry, if he were actually faced with that choice he may very likely change his mind. So I can't give a man's opinion on this a lot of credibility.

Two, he made the decision to have sex and whether he failed to use contraception or trusted the wrong person he is still half responsible for the outcome.
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OD, lesser financial? Let me give you a scenario if I may. Linda and Tom have sex, and she get's pregnant, has the baby. She realizes "I can't do this" and gives the child up for adoption. You can literally take a newborn to many fire departments and they have to take them... no questions asked. If Linda has that right, why doesn't Tom?
 
MrVicchio said:
Why do you hate males? Why do you want to deny men their reproductive rights? Men should be able to "abort" as it were, their rights and obligations for children they are not ready for and do not want.
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I do not hate men. Real men own up to their responsibilities and know they cannot control a woman's body. Are you a real man?
 
opendebate said:
Two, he made the decision to have sex and whether he failed to use contraception or trusted the wrong person he is still half responsible for the outcome.
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Which, some would say, justifes the man's having more say-so in the decisions.
 
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