Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

joko104 · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The State of the "Council of Conservative Citizens":

"Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him when he was shot.

Besides the fact that almost all media outlets have lied about what race George Zimmerman is (he is a Latino/Mestizo), they are also censoring major important details of the case. Some have even published wild opinions about the 911 calls as if the opinions were factual statements.

Would you be surprised to know that the statements of the eyewitness are being censored in almost every media story about the shooting?

1. When police officers arrived, George Zimmerman had a bloody nose and was bleeding from a wound on the back on his head.
2. The eyewitness who called 911 said Zimmerman who screamed for help.
3. The eyewitness also reports that Zimmerman was on the ground and Martin was on top of him beating on him.

This information was made public by a local Orlando television station on February 27th. We now have 22 days of rampant media reports that omit these facts. Once you see what information the police had, it is obvious why they did not arrest him. They were simply abiding by Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. Police are now required to have evidence that a shooter was not acting in self-defense.

How many times have you heard the phrase “Trayvon Martin was a cheerful person,” but you had never heard the words of the eye-witness to the shooting?

Each time you see a “mainstream” news outlet rant about the Zimmerman/Martin case, ask yourself why these three facts mentioned above are missing from the story. Ask yourself why the media is called Zimmerman a white man instead of a Latino. Ask yourself if you think the story is really news or is it agitation/propaganda designed to advance a political agenda.

This past weekend in Chicago alone, black and Latino gangbabgers shot 10 people and wounded 40. The youngest fatality is only six years old. This received no national coverage. Why does this one shooting warrant weeks of coverage?

Even if you think Zimmerman was completely unjustified in firing his gun; ask yourself why 99% of the now thousands of articles are solely from the point of view of the grieving family without trying give a balanced account of the events."

Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him when he was shot.

TheNextEra · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

MaggieD said:
No, the SYG law doesn't say you have to wait to be attacked. If you reasonably fear for your life? That's enough. Who would "reasonably fear for their life" in this situation? The guy with the gun? Or the guy who's being followed -- and then accosted by a strange man?

Here's the problem you and others are not realizing it seems.

We don't know who started the scuffle.

We don't know how Zimmerman PHYSICLALY approached the kid.

Again, this is for the justice system to decide.

We don't know

Thunder · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
....Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him when he was shot.[/COLOR]

“He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns,” he said. “He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_of_CC#History

my friend, you just lost a ****load of legitimacy in this thread, by sourcing the Council of Conservative Citizens. They are a racist organization, notorious for supporting the Confederate flag, white nationalism, and white seperatism. They were formed by former-Segregationists.

yeah man, you messed up big time with this. Its now logical to conclude that your motivation in this issue is anti-black.

Thorgasm · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

TheNextEra said:
So if I come up to you and say I want to punch you, you think your LEGALLY in the right to just shoot me? Sorry, that's not the way SYG law works.

I never said that Martin should have shot Zimmerman. If he felt threatened he had a right to break his nose.

TheNextEra said:
You say words like "doubtful" and "most likely". You say these things because you don't know for sure either.

That's what I'm getting at, we don't know for sure whether Zimmerman was in the right LEGALLY or not.

We can make assumptions all day long, but in the end we don't know for sure. That is what the justice system is for.

This is why I blame the cops, because they should have brought him in for more questioning.

Obviously the cops couldn't be bothered to do their job properly in this case.

joko104 · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

MaggieD said:
Shoulda' woulda' coulda' goes both ways. Zimmerman shoulda' stayed in his damned car. And I beg to differ that it doesn't give me the right to shoot you. Under SYG laws, it most assuredly does. I don't have to wait for a 300# guy to punch me in the face before I defend myself. And Zimmerman? Was acting like a copper...without a uniform...without a cop car...with a gun.

I think the super short version of this is actually quite simple. Then draw your conclusions.

1. A person who is a member of the neighborhood watch association, saw a man with a hood over his head at 2 pm that he thought was acting suspicious.
2. When that person saw the neighborhood watch person on the phone, he ran around a corner.
3. The neighborhood watch person followed to see where the (to him) suspicious person went to tell the police where when they arrived, who were on the way.
4. The suspicious person (to his mind) got pissed off and attacked the civilian watchmen and was beating him up.
5. While being beat up, the civilian watchman - who unknown to his attacker was legally armed with a concealed handgun - fired a single shot, which killed his attacker.
6. The police arrived and the watchman answered all questions. They noted head injuries to the waitchman in their report and his claiming to have been yelling for help while being attacked but no one came to his aid.
7. It later was discovered the attacker was a 17 year old football player apparently walking back from a 7-11 store.

^That is the short, uneditorized likely true story. From that, draw your conclusions.

Thorgasm · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
I think the super short version of this is actually quite simple. Then draw your conclusions.

A person who is a member of the neighborhood watch association, saw a man with a hood over his head at 2 pm that he thought was acting suspicious. When that person saw the neighborhood watch person on the phone, he ran around a corner. The neighborhood watch person followed to see where the (to him) suspicious person went to tell the police where when they arrived. The suspicious person (to his mind) got pissed off and attacked the civilian watchmen and was beating him up. While being beat up, the civilian watchman - who unknown to his attacker was legally armed with a concealed handgun - fired a single shot, which killed his attacker.

It later was discovered the attacker was a 17 year old football player apparently walking back for a 7-11 store.

^That is the short, uneditorized likely true story. From that, draw your conclusions.

He isn't a member of an association. He is a one man vigilante. He declared himself "Neighborhood Watch Captain".

Thunder · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
...A person who is a member of the neighborhood watch association....

you are fully aware that this is incorrect.

he is a one-man neighborhood watch, and self-appointed captain.

I'm really starting to wonder about your defense of this guy, especially considering your sourcing of an article by the Council of Conservative Citizens.

What if...? · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Excon said:
Supposition and speculation abounds.

Please link to that.
I had heard it was others in LE that thought he may have sounded that way. Not the 911 operator.

All right.

Now are you going to accept that Zims statements and the girlfriends DO NOT corroborate each other?

Can't think of a scenario where someone says "what are you doing here while walking away from someone.

Also Zim said he was walking back to his truck after checking what street he was on NOT after speaking to Martin.

Crosscheck · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Thorgasm said:
He isn't a member of an association. He is a one man vigilante. He declared himself "Neighborhood Watch Captain".

As Captain you can almost expect that his gun was prominently displayed to let ther perps know that he was the law in that neighborhood.

TheNextEra · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

MaggieD said:
Shoulda' woulda' coulda' goes both ways. Zimmerman shoulda' stayed in his damned car.

I don't doubt that, but LEGALLY, we don't know for sure.

You don't have all the facts either and are making assumptions.

I'm saying we don't know and that it is up to the justice system to decide. You however, have already made the guilty verdict against Zimmerman.

TheNextEra · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

MaggieD said:
If you reasonably fear for your life? That's enough. Who would "reasonably fear for their life" in this situation? The guy with the gun? Or the guy who's being followed -- and then accosted by a strange man?

so, the kid was soo scared he callled his girlfriend and not the cops.

joko104 · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Thunder said:
Council of Conservative Citizens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

my friend, you just lost a ****load of legitimacy in this thread, by sourcing the Council of Conservative Citizens. They are a racist organization, notorious for supporting the Confederate flag, white nationalism, and white seperatism. They were formed by former-Segregationists.

yeah man, you messed up big time with this. Its now logical to conclude that your motivation in this issue is anti-black.

Wow! Did you just mess up! You just posted that you know about the Counsel of Conservative Citizens (I don't) and clearly are trying to cleverly promote their agenda by advertising it. We now all know you are openly promoting an anti-black organization and have exposed your true agenda big time. Are there any other racist organizations you promote or just this one? We now all know who you are and what YOUR secret goal is!

^That is tongue-in-cheek only to make a point only. I know you're not a racist. Your asserting I am is equally wrong.

Or, put another way, your message is absurd and most people disregard people (such as you) who search for ways to call people racist. Obviously, if one of is, it's you. I'm not white. I'd think you'd remember that by now as while I don't wear it on my sleeve nor as a chip on my shoulder, I'm Native American/African-American.

So I could proceed to write "FU!", but I don't. The emotions on this matter are high and that gets people (including myself) to post before thinking.

I came across that while searching about the Neighborhood Association and to try to find out what time of day/night this happened in a Google search. Never heard of that group before. Didn't care who they are. Rather, it is just an opposing opinion - meaning not every agrees about this.

I quoted (not endorsed) what that organization said as it appeared with a summary of facts from the Miami Herald, which are relevant in that not all saw Zimmerman as a kook, an African-American member of the Neighborhood Watch thought Zimmerman "is cool" (the media reported - with no support - that everyone knew Zimmerman to be a racist) and that the neighborhood association claims his actions have lead arrest in the past, that it is a high crime neighborhood - and with over 400 calls to 911 per year for that neighborhood, Zimmerman's 40 calls over his watchman career is not extreme as portrayed.

MaggieD · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

TheNextEra said:
You however, have already made the guilty verdict against Zimmerman.

Not really. I've said throughout that I'm happy it's being investigated. I'm delighted a Grand Jury is going to be convened. One always takes a polarizing position on DP -- my position is that an innocent kid is dead because a self-proclaimed neighborhood watch captain got out of his car. He quite obviously has been given a great deal of latitude...if you listen to the 911 tape, the dispatcher talked to him like he was a comrade-in-arms. There's a lesson to be learned here about a lot of what happened:

Just what authority does a neighborhood watch volunteer have?
Can a neighborhood watch volunteer interrogate a private citizen?
Should a neighborhood watch volunteer be armed?
Can a neighborhood watch volunteer follow someone he suspects of wrongdoing?

Or should a neighborhood watch volunteer call the police, give a description of the suspect and stand back?

I've said before in this thread, if I were in my car and an unmarked police car with a siren on the dash tried to pull me over? I'm not pulling over. Period. How the hell do I know who that person is? Alone on a dark street? No uniform? No cop car? You're scaring the crap outa' me.

Neighborhood Watch should not mean, "I'm a person in authority." They're not. No one even knows who they are.

Thunder · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
Wow! Did you just mess up! You just posted that you know about the Counsel of Conservative Citizens (I don't) and clearly are trying to cleverly promote their agenda by advertising it. We now all know you are openly promoting an anti-black organization and have exposed your true agenda big time. Are they any other racist organizations you promote or just this one. We now all know who you are....

You're the one who linked to an article by a racist, white-nationalist, white-seperatist organization, that was founded by former Segregationists. Take responsibility for your actions.

Thunder · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

TheNextEra said:
so, the kid was soo scared he callled his girlfriend and not the cops.

fear can make people do silly things.

rhinefire · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Now that the "CONCERN" for justice is growing nationwide by soon to be millions of people who have no idea whatsoever what the facts are, the alledged shooter has virtually no chance in this country of getting a fair trial. This mob of uneducated civilans act only out of emotion, not out of intellect. Now Da Rev., convicted coke dealer Al Razor-Sharpton sees another chance to get on Teee-Veee. Do not charge this man with anything as it will be a waste of money to try to convict now. O.J. was aquitted for one reason-fear of riots by the same people. Let them riot as long as they burn their own homes which they bought with free federal money

TheNextEra · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Thorgasm said:
He isn't a member of an association. He is a one man vigilante. He declared himself "Neighborhood Watch Captain".

Regardless, it's not illegal to follow someone if you are suspicious of what they are doing. There is no crime commited from that, IF that is what zimmerman was doing.

Like I said, there are a lot of things that are being assumed by both sides that say he is legally in the right or not.

I'm saying we don't know for sure and it's up to the justice system to determine that.

MaggieD · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
Wow! Did you just mess up! You just posted that you know about the Counsel of Conservative Citizens (I don't) and clearly are trying to cleverly promote their agenda by advertising it. We now all know you are openly promoting an anti-black organization and have exposed your true agenda big time. Are there any other racist organizations you promote or just this one? We now all know who you are and what YOUR secret goal is!

^That is tongue-in-cheek only to make a point only. I know you're not a racist. Your asserting I am is equally wrong.

Or, put another way, your message is absurd and most people disregard people (such as you) who search for ways to call people racist. Obviously, if one of is, it's you. I'm not white. I'd think you'd remember that by now as while I don't wear it on my sleeve nor as a chip on my shoulder, I'm Native American/African-American.

So I could proceed to write "FU!", but I don't. The emotions on this matter are high and that gets people (including myself) to post before thinking.

I came across that while searching about the Neighborhood Association and to try to find out what time of day/night this happened in a Google search. Never heard of that group before. Didn't care who they are. Rather, it is just an opposing opinion - meaning not every agrees about this.

I quoted (not endorsed) what that organization said as it appeared with a summary of facts from the Miami Herald, which are relevant in that not all saw Zimmerman as a kook, an African-American member of the Neighborhood Watch thought Zimmerman "is cool" (the media reported - with no support - that everyone knew Zimmerman to be a racist) and that the neighborhood association claims his actions have lead arrest in the past, that it is a high crime neighborhood - and with over 400 calls to 911 per year for that neighborhood, Zimmerman's 40 calls over his watchman career is not extreme as portrayed.

Nice edit, Joko -- I don't think you're a racist either. Never-ever crossed my mind.

Thunder · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

TheNextEra said:
Regardless, it's not illegal to follow someone if you are suspicious of what they are doing. There is no crime commited from that, IF that is what zimmerman was doing....

no, its not illegal. but it is intimidating to do that in the middle of the night, in the rain, and then approach that person.

Martin had good reason to fear Zimmerman might become violent.

TheNextEra · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Thunder said:
fear can make people do silly things.

Yes, it does. So why don't you apply that to Zimmerman as well?

You are making assumptions that Zimmerman is guilty. I'm saying we don't know for sure.

TheNextEra · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Thunder said:
no, its not illegal. but it is intimidating to do that in the middle of the night, in the rain, and then approach that person.

Martin had good reason to fear Zimmerman might become violent.

And Zimmerman had good reason to fear Martin depending on how Martin acted when confornted as well.

You make the assumption that Martin was the victim here and not acting aggresive. I'm saying we don't know for sure about either one of them.

MaggieD · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

rhinefire said:
Now that the "CONCERN" for justice is growing nationwide by soon to be millions of people who have no idea whatsoever what the facts are, the alledged shooter has virtually no chance in this country of getting a fair trial. This mob of uneducated civilans act only out of emotion, not out of intellect. Now Da Rev., convicted coke dealer Al Razor-Sharpton sees another chance to get on Teee-Veee. Do not charge this man with anything as it will be a waste of money to try to convict now. O.J. was aquitted for one reason-fear of riots by the same people. Let them riot as long as they burn their own homes which they bought with free federal money

The police department should have done more.

Do you think it would have all been over at the scene if it was a doctor's son who was shot? In a white affluent neighborhood? I don't.

Thunder · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

TheNextEra said:
Yes, it does. So why don't you apply that to Zimmerman as well?....

Zimmerman was siting in his car. He had no reason to fear Martin.

Thunder · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

rhinefire said:
Now that the "CONCERN" for justice is growing nationwide by soon to be millions of people who have no idea whatsoever what the facts are, the alledged shooter has virtually no chance in this country of getting a fair trial. This mob of uneducated civilans act only out of emotion, not out of intellect. Now Da Rev., convicted coke dealer Al Razor-Sharpton sees another chance to get on Teee-Veee. Do not charge this man with anything as it will be a waste of money to try to convict now. O.J. was aquitted for one reason-fear of riots by the same people. Let them riot as long as they burn their own homes which they bought with free federal money

your agenda & bias against blacks is clear as day.

TheNextEra · Mar 23, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

MaggieD said:
my position is that an innocent kid is dead because a self-proclaimed neighborhood watch captain got out of his car.

Wrong, Martin is dead because Zimmerman shot him. Getting out of the car didn't kill Martin. You don't know as fact Zimmerman's actions and you don't know as fact Martin's actions.

MaggieD said:
Just what authority does a neighborhood watch volunteer have?

I don't believe they have any real authority. However, they do have the LEGAL right to follow someone if they think they are suspicious. And even that is only to a point. If MArtin felt he was being stalked, he could have called the police.

MaggieD said:
Can a neighborhood watch volunteer interrogate a private citizen?

Yes, they just don't have the right to detain them and the person isn't obligated to answer or remain. Again, MArtin could have called the police as well.

MaggieD said:
Should a neighborhood watch volunteer be armed?

If they follow their local regulations on fireamrms, YES. It's their right.

MaggieD said:
Can a neighborhood watch volunteer follow someone he suspects of wrongdoing?

Yes, anyone can. Up until the point, the other person feels they are being stalked and can call the police.

MaggieD said:
Or should a neighborhood watch volunteer call the police, give a description of the suspect and stand back?

Personally, I think they should do that. LEGALLY they are not required to do that unless ordered by an actual police officer not to.

MaggieD said:
I've said before in this thread, if I were in my car and an unmarked police car with a siren on the dash tried to pull me over? I'm not pulling over. Period. How the hell do I know who that person is? Alone on a dark street? No uniform? No cop car? You're scaring the crap outa' me.

Neighborhood Watch should not mean, "I'm a person in authority." They're not. No one even knows who they are.

I'm not saying they should be given any authority, I'm talking about LEGAL actions and getting out of a car and approaching someone is not illegal.

Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

joko104

TheNextEra

Thunder

Thorgasm

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joko104

Thorgasm

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Thunder

What if...?

Crosscheck

TheNextEra

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joko104

MaggieD

Thunder

Thunder

rhinefire

TheNextEra

MaggieD

Thunder

TheNextEra

TheNextEra

MaggieD

Thunder

Thunder

TheNextEra

Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

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