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Faith vs Works

ludin said:
Sorry I don't go by LDS teachings i have issues with them. I go by Christ's teachings.

again works are a sign of faith nothing more.
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And to state the obvious, I believe the LDS are going by Christ's teachings.
 
Elvira said:
Not necessarily...I think that is what Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 7:21-23...there would be those who perform the works but lack the faith and Jesus declares he never knew them, for that reason...they lack faith in him...you cannot have faith without works but it is possible to have works without faith...
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Sure, not necessarily, but isn't there a promise in the Gospels to the effect: "Act as if you had faith, and faith shall be given to you"?
 
RAMOSS said:
It doesn't seem like that the sacrifice would be needed to be merciful , from a non-Christian perspective. Micah 7:18 says
To me, that sounds much more reasonable.
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He is a merciful God.........that's why we ended up with a Messiah.
 
Angel said:
Sure, not necessarily, but isn't there a promise in the Gospels to the effect: "Act as if you had faith, and faith shall be given to you"?
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I googled....and some people were looking for that and one claimed she can't find it in the Bible.
There is this, though about the fig tree:


Matthew 21
21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’
and it will be done.

22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
 
Nickyjo said:
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
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I have come the long way round, and am a recovering catholic as well. My faith is a direct relationship with Jesus that continues unfold in profound ways. I believe in angels and miracles, i am a miracle if you believe that addiction is an incurable disease.

I do not believe in "the church" as I have tried enough to know none is free of corruption.

What I also believe is that most of the modern interpretation of the bible is false; everything the catholic nuns taught me was a lie, and the basis of the structure of the "Holy Roman Church" is a carbon copy of the then structure of the Roman government and pagan rights, complete with "saints", and "vestal virgins" only now called nuns. Despite Jesus saying "I am the only way to the father" Catholics insist you have to be a priest, and they have turned God into a hairy, thundering vengeful god who cannot even be approached, all must come through the priest...even the rite of "the holy spirit". Now that's what I call arrogance, to not only claim YOU are the only one who knows Him, and they are the only path to forgiveness by telling men who have given up sex to the point of turning insane all about the nasty **** you've done.

That has nothing to do with my God.

I have also since learned that much of the bible is metaphor, a lot of poetry, a lot of literary license (the whale is a metaphor for not doing what God wants, Noah is a metaphor for all of us in weakness.) So taking anything literally is dangerous. Further, few teach the bible in the context of the culture of the time, there was no written word for most of it. And we do not know or understand the mores of the times, such as the woman at the well being there in made day shows she was an outcast from her own society and thought to be a whore. In His time, to speak to her was a punishable offense. The whole story changes when you know that
 
Elvira said:
Wow, you're good...lol...apparently, this is referring to having faith in oneself, not God...
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:lol: Isn't google wonderful???
 
Elvira said:
Not necessarily...I think that is what Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 7:21-23...there would be those who perform the works but lack the faith and Jesus declares he never knew them, for that reason...they lack faith in him...you cannot have faith without works but it is possible to have works without faith...
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Is that what is says in context?? Can you quote the surrounding paragraphs that support that interpretation.
 
laska said:
And to state the obvious, I believe the LDS are going by Christ's teachings.
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Not really there are some major difference at the core. I am not going to hash them out again as I have done in the past because there is no point in doing so.

The biggest one being that you do not believe that Christ is God but the actual son of God a created being even though the Bible says otherwise.
 
RAMOSS said:
Is that what is says in context?? Can you quote the surrounding paragraphs that support that interpretation.
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12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The context is there.
 
ludin said:
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The context is there.
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Thanks Ludin...though I wouldn't have bothered...lol...not difficult for a person who knows their Scripture to figure out...
 
ludin said:
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The context is there.
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Those do not seem to support the claim being made. It does say there are specific things to do/belief, and you will acknowledge the false prophets by their 'fruits'. It does not say 'what is a good fruit' or what is bad fruit.. you are making assumptions there. There are other passages.. we know that it is not enough to use prophesy, cast demons and and do mighty works. It doesn't seem to specifically talk about faith per say. It talks about 'do unto others what you would have them do unto you'..

and recognize them by their fruits.

None of those passages discusses faith. The do unto others passage seems to be talking about 'how you treat others'. ... which appears to be works.

I don't see the that the context is there for the claim being made. I do see context being there for actions. such as

herefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

But, I can't see the context for the claim being made.

I don't see the faith , or lacking faith being mentioned. I see taking about 'by their fruits'... , but then it talks specifically about actions in other sections.

Where does it specifically reference faith? Everything you posted can equally reference faith or works. .. but parts you didn't quote specifically mentions 'doeth'

Another sample is

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
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I see a lot of 'does'.. , which are works. Where does it say 'believes' or imply 'believes', which would be faith?

It appears by other passages surrounding , the 'good fruit' mentioned in your passages is recognized by actions. Can you point to 'believes' rather than 'does'?
 
RAMOSS said:
Those do not seem to support the claim being made. It does say there are specific things to do/belief, and you will acknowledge the false prophets by their 'fruits'. It does not say 'what is a good fruit' or what is bad fruit.. you are making assumptions there. There are other passages.. we know that it is not enough to use prophesy, cast demons and and do mighty works. It doesn't seem to specifically talk about faith per say. It talks about 'do unto others what you would have them do unto you'..

and recognize them by their fruits.

None of those passages discusses faith. The do unto others passage seems to be talking about 'how you treat others'. ... which appears to be works.

I don't see the that the context is there for the claim being made. I do see context being there for actions. such as

herefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

But, I can't see the context for the claim being made.

I don't see the faith , or lacking faith being mentioned. I see taking about 'by their fruits'... , but then it talks specifically about actions in other sections.

Where does it specifically reference faith? Everything you posted can equally reference faith or works. .. but parts you didn't quote specifically mentions 'doeth'

Another sample is



I see a lot of 'does'.. , which are works. Where does it say 'believes' or imply 'believes', which would be faith?

It appears by other passages surrounding , the 'good fruit' mentioned in your passages is recognized by actions. Can you point to 'believes' rather than 'does'?
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They absolutely do support the claim.
They all tie together.

The claim is that works will not save you. This supports that claim.
Not sure what claim you are thinking of.
 
ludin said:
They absolutely do support the claim.
They all tie together.

The claim is that works will not save you. This supports that claim.
Not sure what claim you are thinking of.
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Could you explain a bit more?? I don't see how it supports your claim. I am sure other passages in other books do, but I don't see that claim. How does it show that works will not save you, without assuming that to begin with.
 
RAMOSS said:
Could you explain a bit more?? I don't see how it supports your claim. I am sure other passages in other books do, but I don't see that claim. How does it show that works will not save you, without assuming that to begin with.
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Read. The people did works in the name of Christ and they were rejected.
Paul says and repeats this theme.

They did not have a personal spiritual relationship.

Again as Paul would re-affirm. You are save by grace through faith not of works.

If you could work your salvation the cross would not be needed.
Then again to what standard are those works judged.

If they are judged against perfection then they fail completely.
 
ludin said:
Read. The people did works in the name of Christ and they were rejected.
Paul says and repeats this theme.

They did not have a personal spiritual relationship.

Again as Paul would re-affirm. You are save by grace through faith not of works.

If you could work your salvation the cross would not be needed.
Then again to what standard are those works judged.

If they are judged against perfection then they fail completely.
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Well, they did works,.. but in that section, they did specific things.. and didn't do other specific things. The passage does not describe 'a personal spiritial relationship'. It specifically says they did prophecy, cast out demons and and 'many wonder works' in his name. What it doesn't do is say anything about faith or a personal spiritual relationship.. at least not in the passages you quoted.

It seems you are bringing in presumptions into the passages.

The surrounding passages that you didn't quote specifically talked about 'doing the will of the father', and gave a whole bunch of things to do.

You are using concepts from Paul and putting them into play with the Gospel of Matthew. That is not in context. It doesn't follow the thread of thought from Matthew, in this chapter at least.
 
Elvira said:
Then you have missed the whole motive/meaning of being Christian...
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I think he is spot on, if I understand correctly what he means when he says justice and compassion.
 
RAMOSS said:
Those do not seem to support the claim being made. It does say there are specific things to do/belief, and you will acknowledge the false prophets by their 'fruits'. It does not say 'what is a good fruit' or what is bad fruit.. you are making assumptions there. There are other passages.. we know that it is not enough to use prophesy, cast demons and and do mighty works. It doesn't seem to specifically talk about faith per say. It talks about 'do unto others what you would have them do unto you'..

and recognize them by their fruits.

None of those passages discusses faith. The do unto others passage seems to be talking about 'how you treat others'. ... which appears to be works.
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Well, it does say so!

Since having faith in Christ will result in it being reflected to the works that you do (and or your attitude, lifestyle). How to treat others is specifically mentioned .....after all, Love of Neighbors, is the second most important Commandment.

Remember that Jesus explained all other Commandments hinges on the first and the second.



The "fruit," is character. Character traits of a Christian.


What is Fruit?

What is fruit? Actually the question ought to be phrased in the plural: What are fruits which a Christian can bear? The N. T. gives several answers to the question.

1. A developing Christian character is fruit. If the goal of the Christian life may be stated as Christlikeness, then surely every trait developed in us that reflects His character must be fruit that is very pleasing to Him.
Paul describes the fruit of the Spirit in nine terms in Galatians 5:22-23, and Peter urges the development of seven accompaniments to faith in order that we might be fruitful (2 Peter 1:5-8).
Two of these terms are common to both lists: love and self-control. The others are joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, virtue, knowledge, endurance, piety, and brotherly love. To show these character traits is to bear fruit in one’s life.
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https://bible.org/illustration/what-fruit




Treating others as you would like to be treated - is a perfectly simple explanation, so we can easily
understand what is meant by, and/or expected in loving our neighbor.
 
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RAMOSS said:
Those do not seem to support the claim being made. It does say there are specific things to do/belief, and you will acknowledge the false prophets by their 'fruits'. It does not say 'what is a good fruit' or what is bad fruit...
Click to expand...



Matthew 7

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.


You will recognize false prophets by their own words and actions. Take note that Jesus likened them to ravenous wolves - and Christians are the sheep. These wolves are among the sheep (in sheep's clothings). They are a threat to our faith.....because they will confuse us and try to lead us away from God. Christians are called to vigilance!



If a false prophet is in disguise as a sheep, how do we know them? Jesus gave details:


Luke 6

A Tree and Its Fruit

43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.


A false prophet will be given away by his own words. He'll be preaching things that are not Biblical,
or contrary to the Scriptures.

We see that happening all around us today! Some preachers are endorsing that there are multi-paths to God, that some lifestyles are okay.....putting emphasis on material/worldly wealth (prosperity gospels).


The OP author has been listening to false prophets - see how he's led to believe that you don't have to believe in God to be saved!
EHHHH?
If one doesn't believe in God - why would you believe in all the things that He says? Like, Hell?
What "saving" is he on about?
Save from what????
That defies logic, if one professes to be a Christian!
See? You'll recognize them by their words!


Some false prophets are downplaying the significance of Jesus Christ.
Some are led to bow down and to pray to - and even glorify - other "mediators."
Some give false prophecy - they don't happen!


Matthew 12
33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.
37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”



Those three verses support each other.
 
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Elvira said:
Not necessarily...I think that is what Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 7:21-23...there would be those who perform the works but lack the faith and Jesus declares he never knew them, for that reason...they lack faith in him...you cannot have faith without works but it is possible to have works without faith...
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"In that day there will be people that say, Lord Lord we have healed the sick, spread your name and cast out demons. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you".(Mathew 7:21-23)

There is no mention of faith in that passage. These are believers, seems to describe Christian ecclesiastical leaders. The many saying Lord, Lord, assumed their works were good, but He stated they were "workers of iniquity". The Lord did not consider their works good. What were the works they were putting out as examples of their righteousness? They spread His name, claimed to heal the sick, and claimed to cast out demons, likely all in His name. Again these are believers, they thought they were righteous, it describes the actions of Christian ministers and eccliastical leaders. But Christ stated He never knew them. If he never knew them He then never called them, never gave them authority to speak in His name or perform any ordinance in His name, never gave them His spirit to heal or cast out devils.



In the previous verses of the Chapter the Lord tells us very few find and enter in at the strait gate:

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Then He gives a warning that hints at why only a few find it:
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Sheep's clothing tells us these false prophets are not non Christian, they will be "Christian."

The world He is painting is not a majority Christianity who are entering the strait gate with a small minority blinded by false "Christian" prophets, it is the opposite, the "many" are being led by the "wolves in sheep's clothing", while only a few find and enter the strait gate that leads to eternal life by following true prophets of the Lord. Christ then tells us how to discern the true prophets:

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 
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The strait gate one must enter is repentance and baptism into Christ's divinely authorized Church. Christ set up His one true Church in the New Testament and set Peter as the chief Apostle who is the prophet of the Church, and James and John filled out the First Presidency, and then the Quorum of 12 Apostles. These 15 Apostles, all of whom are prophets, form the top leadership of the Church. All held the Melchizadek priesthood, all held the keys of the kingdom of God on the earth, and were directed by revelation from the living resurrected Christ. The strait gate in New Testament times was repentance and baptism into this the one true Church which is the eccliastical kingdom of God on the earth. If there were hundreds of other different Christian sects led by false Christian leaders all claiming the true Church of the apostles is an imposter and many people embraced these other Christian churches then they would not have entered into the strait gate.

The great news is that Christ's divinely authorized Church was restored by God in these last days. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is guided by a chief Apostle who is the Prophet, his two counselors that form the First Presidency of the Church, and a Quorum of 12 Apostles. They hold the Melcizadek priesthood, they hold keys of the Kingdom of God on the earth which will never again be taken off the earth, and are guided by the living resurrected Christ by direct revelation. They are special witnesses of Christ on earth as they testify He lives because they have been visited by Him.
https://www.lds.org/church/leaders/first-presidency?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/leaders/quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles?lang=eng


17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:17-21)
 
ludin said:
Not really there are some major difference at the core. I am not going to hash them out again as I have done in the past because there is no point in doing so.

The biggest one being that you do not believe that Christ is God but the actual son of God a created being even though the Bible says otherwise.
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Major differences with Christ's teachings and LDS teachings? That is your opinion. That your interpretations of Christ's teachings are truth is very debatable.

The Book of Mormon states the folowing:
"And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." (2 Nephi 31:17-21)

As part of the Godhead, the LDS certainly do believe Christ is God. The difference between LDS doctrine on the Godhead and the one put out by the 4th century Nicene Council that I think you believe in is that the LDS believe the oneness of God in the above BoM verses is three seperate beings who are one in purpose and not the imho very strange docrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one being. To believe Jesus in the NT was praying to Himself, called Himself His Father, the Holy Ghost descending on Him like a dove was Himself is again imho very weird and incomprehensible. Is it possible the source of such a strange doctrine, a source that imprisoned astronomers for teaching the truth, murdered thousands in an inquistion, robbed millions of their free agency, is it possible they gave out a false doctrine on the nature of God. Did any of these 4th century scholars appointed by the emperor of Rome have the faith to open the Heavens and see and KNOW His nature?

You state Christ as a created being and the actual son of God is against what the Bible says:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" -(Colossians 1:15)

"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1 John 5:5)

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (John 20:31)

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:36)


Also the LDS believe matter is eternal. So while yes we believe Jesus is the premortal Jehovah and the first born spirit son of God the Father and that all of our spirits are also literal spirt sons or daughters of God the Father making all of us sons or daughters of God and Christ our eldest brother, the intelligence and light that make up Christ's spirit body and all of our spirit bodies is eternal. In the same sense that the earth was created ie organized by God with eternal matter that has always existed, Christ also is the first born creation of God and also eternal with God the Father.

I believe things on the earth is a shadow of things in Heaven. Jesus was born on Passover 1 BC. His physical body was created by His parents, Heavenly Father and Mary. He was the First born(Only Begotten) Son of God in the flesh, and the first born of Mary. His body is made up of eternal matter. “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man” (Luke 2:52).
 
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