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Faith vs Works

Nickyjo said:
So the all-merciful God condemns someone cause they never heard of him or in good conscience fail to believe in him. That God is too small, an egomaniac. I prefer the parts of scripture that put greater emphasis on what one does, not what one believes. Don’t blame me, blame Jesus for what he said about the last judgement: he condemned believers who didn’t help the poor or visit the imprisoned. I thought the bill was paid, they might say. Not so fast Jesus might say. Your faith is dead without works.
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You conflate your own opinion with God. God is a just God. There are people that have no heard the word. There is theological opinion that these people will be spared.

People that hear but reject is a different story.

Then you are buying into is not biblical. The Bible addresses what you say multiple times. In Christ their is no condemnation.

Works are a sign of faith.
If you don't believe me he addresses is very clearly.

In that day there will be people that say, Lord Lord we have healed the sick, spread your name and cast out demons. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. (Paraphrase)

Clearly showing that works is not enough.

Paul would go into say. You are saved by grace through faith not if works least any man should boast.
Elsewhere it compares works to filthy rags. If you want a better picture filthy rags was the cloth used by women for that time of the month.

The biggest of all is in revelation when only those that are written in the lambs book of life are spared. Owe people are people covered in the blood of the lamb. Those that have accepted Christ as savior and have asked forgiveness of sin.

God is loving but he is also just. He will not allow sin to stand.
For the wages of sin is death. Death basically means separation of.

In this case sin and death and those that follow will be permanently separated from God.
 
Nickyjo said:
And he made it very clear: not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter heaven. You have to do the will of my father. Christ didn’t demand faith, but service. How do you reconcile a just God who would separate precious humans from him simply because they don’t believe. Not a nice person.
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Clearly you haven't read the Bible, because anyone who has knows the answer. Who are you to reconcile anything at that level? And you don't get to define 'nice'.
 
ludin said:
You conflate your own opinion with God. God is a just God. There are people that have no heard the word. There is theological opinion that these people will be spared.

People that hear but reject is a different story.

Then you are buying into is not biblical. The Bible addresses what you say multiple times. In Christ their is no condemnation.

Works are a sign of faith.
If you don't believe me he addresses is very clearly.

In that day there will be people that say, Lord Lord we have healed the sick, spread your name and cast out demons. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. (Paraphrase)

Clearly showing that works is not enough.

Paul would go into say. You are saved by grace through faith not if works least any man should boast.
Elsewhere it compares works to filthy rags. If you want a better picture filthy rags was the cloth used by women for that time of the month.

The biggest of all is in revelation when only those that are written in the lambs book of life are spared. Owe people are people covered in the blood of the lamb. Those that have accepted Christ as savior and have asked forgiveness of sin.

God is loving but he is also just. He will not allow sin to stand.
For the wages of sin is death. Death basically means separation of.

In this case sin and death and those that follow will be permanently separated from God.
Click to expand...

How about Mercy?? God is a merciful god too.
 
ludin said:
You conflate your own opinion with God. God is a just God. There are people that have no heard the word. There is theological opinion that these people will be spared.

People that hear but reject is a different story.

Then you are buying into is not biblical. The Bible addresses what you say multiple times. In Christ their is no condemnation.

Works are a sign of faith.
If you don't believe me he addresses is very clearly.

In that day there will be people that say, Lord Lord we have healed the sick, spread your name and cast out demons. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. (Paraphrase)

Clearly showing that works is not enough.

Paul would go into say. You are saved by grace through faith not if works least any man should boast.
Elsewhere it compares works to filthy rags. If you want a better picture filthy rags was the cloth used by women for that time of the month.

The biggest of all is in revelation when only those that are written in the lambs book of life are spared. Owe people are people covered in the blood of the lamb. Those that have accepted Christ as savior and have asked forgiveness of sin.

God is loving but he is also just. He will not allow sin to stand.
For the wages of sin is death. Death basically means separation of.

In this case sin and death and those that follow will be permanently separated from God.
Click to expand...

In the verse that states "In that day there will be people that say, Lord Lord we have healed the sick, spread your name and cast out demons. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you" it is obvious they believed in the Lord and thought they were spreading His word and thought they were doing miracles in His name when obviously Christ did not accept what they were spreading as being from Him and the miracles if they really were miracles were not from Him. He never knew them. Works are definitely part of the equation. Christ stated "If ye love me keep my commandments".
 
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laska said:
In the verse that states "In that day there will be people that say, Lord Lord we have healed the sick, spread your name and cast out demons. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you" it is obvious they believed in the Lord and thought they were spreading His word and thought they were doing miracles in His name when obviously Christ did not accept what they were spreading as being from Him and the miracles if they really were miracles were not from Him. He never knew them. Works are definitely part of the equation. Christ stated "If ye love me keep my commandments".
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What are those commandments?

Love the lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the 2nd is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself.

You are saved by grace not of works.
Works is a sign of faith but works cannot save you.

The work was done in the cross. If you could have saved yourself by works then the cross is not needed.
If you need to know more from Christ himself.

No one comes to the father but through me. You can't get to the father by works just based in that one sentence alone.
 
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RAMOSS said:
How about Mercy?? God is a merciful god too.
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He was merciful. He sent his only begotten son so that none may perish but have everlasting life.
That is the ultimate sign of mercy.

Only in this case the ultimate pardon of sin. The cost his son.
 
ludin said:
What are those commandments?

Love he lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the 2nd is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself.

You are saved by grace not of works.
Works is a sign of faith but works cannot save you.

The work was done in the cross. If you could have saved yourself by works then the cross is not needed.
If you need to know more from Christ himself.

No one comes to the father but through me. You can't get to the father by works just based in that one sentence alone.
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I think you would have to look at the surrounding passages to see what was meant by that at the time, to read it in context.

What do the surrounding passages say about behavior?
 
HowardBThiname said:
My evidence is that Moses' Commandments are VERY SIMILAR as those from the Code, except for the spiritual Commandments.
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You commit a logical fallacy known as the false cause.

This fallacy is committed whenever someone reasons that just because two things exist side by side, one of them must have caused the other. As we all should know, mere coincidence does not prove causal connection. Nor does similarity prove dependence.”
 
ludin said:
What are those commandments?

Love he lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the 2nd is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself.

You are saved by grace not of works.
Works is a sign of faith but works cannot save you.

The work was done in the cross. If you could have saved yourself by works then the cross is not needed.
If you need to know more from Christ himself.

No one comes to the father but through me. You can't get to the father by works just based in that one sentence alone.
Click to expand...

Just because I gave that single verse doesn't mean I think its works alone. In my previous post I stated you need both faith and works and then after that, we still fall short, and that we must rely on the mercy of the Lord and His Atonement to save us to eternal life, after all we can do. In order to access this mercy to eternal life, we have to hold up our end of the covenant, and that is faith and obedience to God's commandments and real repentance when we make mistakes. then, even though we still fall short, Christ's mercy pays the rest of the debt. What you cannot do to obtain eternal life is simply believe and live a life of sin or give a half effort in trying to follow God. There are plenty of verses that teach this, that it takes both faith and works. What a lot of people do is quote one verse out of context in trying to say either it only takes faith or it only takes works.
 
ludin said:
He was merciful. He sent his only begotten son so that none may perish but have everlasting life.
That is the ultimate sign of mercy.

Only in this case the ultimate pardon of sin. The cost his son.
Click to expand...

Is that sufficient to be merciful?? To an outsider looking in, that doesn't seem reasonable.
 
Nickyjo said:
And he made it very clear: not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter heaven. You have to do the will of my father. Christ didn’t demand faith, but service. How do you reconcile a just God who would separate precious humans from him simply because they don’t believe. Not a nice person.
Click to expand...

You demand works? Then do this work:

" Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." - John 6:28-29

Of course, once you believe (have faith in Jesus), then you are justified righteous in the eyes of God (Genesis 15:6, John 3:16, etc.) and are saved.

Gotta love it!!
 
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laska said:
Just because I gave that single verse doesn't mean I think its works alone. In my previous post I stated you need both faith and works and then after that, we still fall short, and that we must rely on the mercy of the Lord and His Atonement to save us to eternal life, after all we can do. In order to access this mercy to eternal life, we have to hold up our end of the covenant, and that is faith and obedience to God's commandments and real repentance when we make mistakes. then, even though we still fall short, Christ's mercy pays the rest of the debt. What you cannot do to obtain eternal life is simply believe and live a life of sin or give a half effort in trying to follow God. There are plenty of verses that teach this, that it takes both faith and works. What a lot of people do is quote one verse out of context in trying to say either it only takes faith or it only takes works.
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You can do nothing to save yourself. It doesn't matter how many works you do it won't save you.
Only the blood of Christ can save. We can't hold up our end of the covenant that is why a new covenant was formed.

Works are a sign of faith. Works will not help save you. No where is this biblical.
 
ludin said:
You can do nothing to save yourself. It doesn't matter how many works you do it won't save you.
Only the blood of Christ can save. We can't hold up our end of the covenant that is why a new covenant was formed.

Works are a sign of faith. Works will not help save you. No where is this biblical.
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Did I say you can save yourself without the blood of Christ?
 
RAMOSS said:
Is that sufficient to be merciful?? To an outsider looking in, that doesn't seem reasonable.
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When the only thing is death then how is it not merciful?
God could have chosen to not to do anything and condemn the world.
Yet he didn't. He carved a way for the price of sin to be paid and death overcome.
 
laska said:
Did I say you can save yourself without the blood of Christ?
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You are claiming that it is you that has to do someing. You can do nothing.
It is grace by faith that you are saved not of works least any man should boast.
 
ludin said:
When the only thing is death then how is it not merciful?
God could have chosen to not to do anything and condemn the world.
Yet he didn't. He carved a way for the price of sin to be paid and death overcome.
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem like that the sacrifice would be needed to be merciful , from a non-Christian perspective. Micah 7:18 says

Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
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To me, that sounds much more reasonable.
 
RAMOSS said:
It doesn't seem like that the sacrifice would be needed to be merciful , from a non-Christian perspective. Micah 7:18 says



To me, that sounds much more reasonable.
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How was sin pardon? By sacrifice.
 
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ludin said:
How was sin pardon? By sacrifice.
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Actually, Isaiah 1:11-16 refers to that, and 1:16 denies that.

Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil,
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You gain forgiveness by ceasing to do evil. It is by a change of behavior more than anything else.

The change in behavior could be considered 'Works'
 
RAMOSS said:
Actually, Isaiah 1:11-16 refers to that, and 1:16 denies that.



You gain forgiveness by ceasing to do evil. It is by a change of behavior more than anything else.

The change in behavior could be considered 'Works'
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Ramoss, I hope you read the article I linked in my previous post. It does a great job of explaining why we need a Savior and a sacrifice for our sins, and the need for following the commandments of God and doing righteous works.
 
Logicman said:
You demand works? Then do this work:

" Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." - John 6:28-29

Of course, once you believe (have faith in Jesus), then you are justified righteous in the eyes of God (Genesis 15:6, John 3:16, etc.) and are saved.

Gotta love it!!
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Thanks for mentioning this verse Logicman... It sadly escaped my mind when I was suggesting reading through sections of Romans and Galatians.
 
If one has Faith, the Works will follow,
If one perform the Works, Faith will follow.
 
This sums the LDS perspective up nicely:

"Moroni, in the closing words of the Book of Mormon, teaches the relationship between the grace of Christ and the need for our righteous efforts. Note how he keeps distinctly clear what it is that perfects us, and yet what must happen in our lives to bring that about.":

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
“And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.” (Moro. 10:32–33.)
 
Angel said:
If one has Faith, the Works will follow,
If one perform the Works, Faith will follow.
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Not necessarily...I think that is what Jesus was pointing out in Matthew 7:21-23...there would be those who perform the works but lack the faith and Jesus declares he never knew them, for that reason...they lack faith in him...you cannot have faith without works but it is possible to have works without faith...
 
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