Explaining Why Federal Deficits Are Needed[W:5330]

[Conservative]

Yer still moving the goal post, you were debating POTUS elections, WV has not gone D in over 20 years, and your babbling won't change that fact.

That is what you are debating but you are also showing the true face of the Democratic Party, one that caters to the Hollywood elite and Wall Street, not the average working Americans like coal miners. You have no understanding of how coal impacts our infrastructure and steel.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

That is what you are debating but you are also showing the true face of the Democratic Party, one that caters to the Hollywood elite and Wall Street, not the average working Americans like coal miners. You have no understanding of how coal impacts our infrastructure and steel.

Good grief, steel production moved away from coal decades ago, coal has been displaced by natural gas. You might as well blame Texas and fracking before you lay the blame at the foot of "Hollywood".

Yer arguments are so fracking stupid.

 

[Conservative]

Good grief, steel production moved away from coal decades ago, coal has been displaced by natural gas. You might as well blame Texas and fracking before you lay the blame at the foot of "Hollywood".

Yer arguments are so fracking stupid.

You truly represent the leftwing mindset that is out of touch with reality. How is President elect Hillary doing? Coal has not been displaced, it is essential for the efficient development of steel.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

You truly represent the leftwing mindset that is out of touch with reality. How is President elect Hillary doing? Coal has not been displaced, it is essential for the efficient development of steel.

Coal WAS primarily used as a fuel for firing, creating heat, that use in the the US has been displaced by electric arc. Coal in modern steel production is only used as a source for coke, and that is a tiny fraction of when it was used as a combustion element.

But again, Dump is not going to bring back steel production to the US either.

 

[Moderate Right]

There is more than just the Presidential election in the state, the state is blue collar and historically votes for Democrats in state and local elections but aren't going to vote for Obama or Hillary who are anti coal. I thought it was the Democratic party that was for the working class in this country, not the Republicans?

Kentucky used to be the exact same way. People thought it was a red state but in reality it was deep blue, except for national elections, where it got it's reputation as a red state. Last year we elected a Republican governor, only the second in many, many years and this year we finally turned the state deep red with Republicans controlling the state government for the first time in decades. The left just doesn't learn.

 

[Conservative]

Coal WAS primarily used as a fuel for firing, creating heat, that use in the the US has been displaced by electric arc. Coal in modern steel production is only used as a source for coke, and that is a tiny fraction of when it was used as a combustion element.

But again, Dump is not going to bring back steel production to the US either.

You are so right, coal miners got it which is why Obama won their votes in 08-12 and now Hillary in 16. Steel producers for infrastructure projects don't need W. Va coal for making steel stronger and better which is why the traditionally blue coal miners continued with their support for the Democrats who are big proponents of coal.

 

[Bobbaker]

That is what you are debating but you are also showing the true face of the Democratic Party, one that caters to the Hollywood elite and Wall Street, not the average working Americans like coal miners. You have no understanding of how coal impacts our infrastructure and steel.

Coal destroys our environment by adding to the greenhouse gases ****ing up the planet.

A coal miner who insists that he keeps his job even though a. clean energy jobs will reach him first above others b. unemployment benefits will be extended to him at the public's expense, is a selfish jerk. He's also usually male, white, uneducated, and raised by parents and friends who are similarly uneducated. He's also lazy and doesn't want to do the work to be retrained into new industries.

You are so right, coal miners got it which is why Obama won their votes in 08-12 and now Hillary in 16.

Coal miners are selfish, intellectually lazy whiners. No one is surprised by this.

Germany is running 30% of its grid off renewable sources. They've nearly mastered the technology here, gone through the painful RnD, over the past 15 years. We need to cut and paste those solutions here big league. Anyone with a brain, and especially those who work in energy industries who should have stuff like this at their fingertips, should endorse this and work towards it powerfully.

 

[Conservative]

Coal destroys our environment by adding to the greenhouse gases ****ing up the planet.

A coal miner who insists that he keeps his job even though a. clean energy jobs will reach him first above others b. unemployment benefits will be extended to him at the public's expense, is a selfish jerk. He's also usually male, white, uneducated, and raised by parents and friends who are similarly uneducated. He's also lazy and doesn't want to do the work to be retrained into new industries.



Coal miners are selfish, intellectually lazy whiners. No one is surprised by this.

Germany is running 30% of its grid off renewable sources. They've nearly mastered the technology here, gone through the painful RnD, over the past 15 years. We need to cut and paste those solutions here big league. Anyone with a brain, and especially those who work in energy industries who should have stuff like this at their fingertips, should endorse this and work towards it powerfully.

That is exactly the attitude that cost the Democrats the election. Keep up that attitude and keep ignoring the plight of the working class

 

[Conservative]

Coal destroys our environment by adding to the greenhouse gases ****ing up the planet.

A coal miner who insists that he keeps his job even though a. clean energy jobs will reach him first above others b. unemployment benefits will be extended to him at the public's expense, is a selfish jerk. He's also usually male, white, uneducated, and raised by parents and friends who are similarly uneducated. He's also lazy and doesn't want to do the work to be retrained into new industries.



Coal miners are selfish, intellectually lazy whiners. No one is surprised by this.

Germany is running 30% of its grid off renewable sources. They've nearly mastered the technology here, gone through the painful RnD, over the past 15 years. We need to cut and paste those solutions here big league. Anyone with a brain, and especially those who work in energy industries who should have stuff like this at their fingertips, should endorse this and work towards it powerfully.

What is it that Joe Biden sees that you don't?

Biden rips Democrats' 'elitism,' faults party for failing to reach working class | Fox News

Keep buying your belief that Progressives are mainstream and with your attitude it won't belong before Progressives no longer exist which would be a good thing

 

[Bobbaker]

That is exactly the attitude that cost the Democrats the election. Keep up that attitude and keep ignoring the plight of the working class

No one is ignoring their plight. If they are lazy dumb ****s who are content to destroy the country and the planet so that they can put food on their personal table, even when the country can help them tide over and get new jobs eventually, then they need to be not only ignored, but vilified.

Are they such cowards that they can't make sacrifices? Have they lost so much self confidence that they cannot face an uncertain future with strength? When did they become such wimps ? When did they lose their pair ?

Again, for those of you who have great difficulty reading, clean energy jobs will prioritise those who've lost their dirty energy jobs...if they are not too lazy to get off their butts and get retrained to do them. And everyone given a pink slip here would get unemployment benefits equal to 80% of their income for the next 5 years (up to a limit of $80k/yr) as long as they can't get a job. Its a decision made by the country, coal miners are affected through no personal fault of their own, and so the country should pay for it. All our taxes can go up very slightly to cover that - no biggy for our neighbour. In other words, IT IS FAIR. Another day in the past, the coal miners paid their dues to others similarly displaced by much needed regulation that cost jobs somewhere else. This is called "working together as a ****ing society in a FAIR WAY".

What is it that Joe Biden sees that you don't?

Biden rips Democrats' 'elitism,' faults party for failing to reach working class | Fox News

Keep buying your belief that Progressives are mainstream and with your attitude it won't belong before Progressives no longer exist which would be a good thing

Like most politicians, Joe Biden says stuff that skirts around the edges while avoiding the truth. The real reason the democrats lost narrowly would be this :

http://www.debatepolitics.com/2016-...try-sexism-and-selfishness-lost-election.html

 

[OpportunityCost]

No one is ignoring their plight. If they are lazy dumb ****s who are content to destroy the country and the planet so that they can put food on their personal table, even when the country can help them tide over and get new jobs eventually, then they need to be not only ignored, but vilified.

Are they such cowards that they can't make sacrifices? Have they lost so much self confidence that they cannot face an uncertain future with strength? When did they become such wimps ? When did they lose their pair ?

Again, for those of you who have great difficulty reading, clean energy jobs will prioritise those who've lost their dirty energy jobs...if they are not too lazy to get off their butts and get retrained to do them. And everyone given a pink slip here would get unemployment benefits equal to 80% of their income for the next 5 years (up to a limit of $80k/yr) as long as they can't get a job. Its a decision made by the country, coal miners are affected through no personal fault of their own, and so the country should pay for it. All our taxes can go up very slightly to cover that - no biggy for our neighbour. In other words, IT IS FAIR. Another day in the past, the coal miners paid their dues to others similarly displaced by much needed regulation that cost jobs somewhere else. This is called "working together as a ****ing society in a FAIR WAY".




Like most politicians, Joe Biden says stuff that skirts around the edges while avoiding the truth. The real reason the democrats lost narrowly would be this :

http://www.debatepolitics.com/2016-...try-sexism-and-selfishness-lost-election.html

Coal miners work harder in a week than a lot of people do in a year. Calling them lazy is partisan crap to dehumanize them and demonize them with no stain on what little is left of your conscience. Its just dishonest. Coal, as an industry, was never subsidized, never given special treatment, and voted Democrat for generations. Denigrating them now is part and parcel of why Democrats lost the last election, throwing people under the bus tends to lose you votes.

 

[Bobbaker]

Coal miners work harder in a week than a lot of people do in a year. Calling them lazy is partisan crap to dehumanize them and demonize them with no stain on what little is left of your conscience. Its just dishonest.

Ok, since you believe they are such wonderful people. Then explain to me why they want to hang onto jobs which are destroying the environment for everybody, including their own children and future grandchildren ? Especially when green energy jobs will come into their towns to give them new jobs, and unemployment benefits are there to pick up the slack in the meanwhile ?

And that ultimately, if they are men of conscience, they shouldn't be doing anything that will harm others, period ?

 

[Critter7r]

Coal miners work harder in a week than a lot of people do in a year. Calling them lazy is partisan crap to dehumanize them and demonize them with no stain on what little is left of your conscience. Its just dishonest. Coal, as an industry, was never subsidized, never given special treatment, and voted Democrat for generations. Denigrating them now is part and parcel of why Democrats lost the last election, throwing people under the bus tends to lose you votes.

I don't know that I'd say coal was never subsidized, but I'd agree that to call the industry's workers "lazy" is a poor choice of word.

Federal coal subsidies - SourceWatch

 

[OpportunityCost]

I don't know that I'd say coal was never subsidized, but I'd agree that to call the industry's workers "lazy" is a poor choice of word.

Federal coal subsidies - SourceWatch

Under examples of treasury dept funding, the Taylorville Exelon plant was never built because Governor Quinn and the Democrats blocked construction of the plant so the federal subsidy went to waste as all that was ever done was environmental findings...over 5 of them ordered by Democrats and the Governor in Illinois. Want to blame someone for that wasted money? Blame democrats in Illinois.

If I dug, I am sure I would find other measures equally dubious. Sourcewatch isn't exactly unbiased or above twisting numbers to show unfavorable numbers for coal, they have been for a good while.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Ok, since you believe they are such wonderful people. Then explain to me why they want to hang onto jobs which are destroying the environment for everybody, including their own children and future grandchildren ? Especially when green energy jobs will come into their towns to give them new jobs, and unemployment benefits are there to pick up the slack in the meanwhile ?

And that ultimately, if they are men of conscience, they shouldn't be doing anything that will harm others, period ?

To characterize them as lazy, to demonize them the way you have...its just a scummy tactic. Green energy does not create jobs. It has been a black hole of subsidies with little to no economic returns. Nor is it particularly clean as the downsides of maintenance in the case of wind and manufacture in the case of solar are NOT green and have not been net winners for the US.

It is impossible for industry to do no harm whatsoever. Men of conscience will want to create as little harm as possible but so should the people wanting to replace industries with greener solutions. Your entire attitude reeks of **** these guys we are doing it my way and I don't care. Now you seemingly want to backpedal but still blame them after you mischaracterized them as lazy. You should be ashamed of your tactics, but I bet you aren't.

 

[Critter7r]

Under examples of treasury dept funding, the Taylorville Exelon plant was never built because Governor Quinn and the Democrats blocked construction of the plant so the federal subsidy went to waste as all that was ever done was environmental findings...over 5 of them ordered by Democrats and the Governor in Illinois. Want to blame someone for that wasted money? Blame democrats in Illinois.

If I dug, I am sure I would find other measures equally dubious. Sourcewatch isn't exactly unbiased or above twisting numbers to show unfavorable numbers for coal, they have been for a good while.

From the same link:

"In 2007 DOE invited 16 projects to submit applications for loan guarantees. Two of the projects are Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) coal-fired power plants and one would use IGCC technology to produce synthetic gas from coal for chemical feedstocks. In 2008, DOE issued solicitations for $6 billion in loan guarantees for projects that incorporate carbon capture and sequestration (CCS) or other emissions-reducing carbon technologies into retrofitted and new coal plants, or industrial gasification activities, and $2 billion for loan guarantees for advanced coal gasification projects."

If I dug, I'm sure I could find hundreds of billions in various Federal and State subsidies to coal mining and use. Don't get me wrong, many of the subsidies are probably wonderful ideas and worthy of being a subsidy, but again, to say that coal isn't subsidized is pure folly.

 

[OpportunityCost]

From the same link:

"In 2007 DOE invited 16 projects to submit applications for loan guarantees. Two of the projects are Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) coal-fired power plants and one would use IGCC technology to produce synthetic gas from coal for chemical feedstocks. In 2008, DOE issued solicitations for $6 billion in loan guarantees for projects that incorporate carbon capture and sequestration (CCS) or other emissions-reducing carbon technologies into retrofitted and new coal plants, or industrial gasification activities, and $2 billion for loan guarantees for advanced coal gasification projects."

If I dug, I'm sure I could find hundreds of billions in various Federal and State subsidies to coal mining and use. Don't get me wrong, many of the subsidies are probably wonderful ideas and worthy of being a subsidy, but again, to say that coal isn't subsidized is pure folly.

Loan guarantees are a subsidy? Or are they a loan...

Coal gasification and carbon capture/sequestration are "green" tech in any event and a response to tightening EPA regs on burning coal for electricity.

 

[Critter7r]

Loan guarantees are a subsidy? Or are they a loan...

Well, it's neither unless the loan defaults.

But here, I'll put some more-solid examples of actual money spent (or surrendered) by governments in the name of coal production or use ... still from that same link ...

"...buying 120 MW of the 800 MW plant with $303 of its $318 million investment portion financed with tax-exempt debt."

"... pulverized coal fired power plant supported by the Early County (Georgia) Development Authority with federally backed local development bonds."

"... a proposed coal plant that purports to use so-called “waste coal” and has received hundreds of millions of dollars in tax-exempt debt authority since it was classified as a solid waste recycling facility."

"...The Taylorville Energy Center got a $417 million government tax credit in July 2010."

Coal gets subsidies. As does every major industry (and just about every business venture) in the country.

EDIT : one more ... "A new program under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, Build American Bonds (BABs), expands the U.S. Treasury’s use of financing tools to subsidize coal-fired power plants. Under the program, issuers of the taxable bonds are provided a 35% direct pay interest subsidy to reduce the costs of borrowing. Power companies are eligible for these federally subsidized taxable bonds funding under BABs: American Municipal Power Ohio used the tax-exempt bond market to finance the construction of the Prairie State Energy Campus in Illinois and, after the 2009 financial crisis began, issued through the BABs program nearly $500 million dollars of federally subsidized taxable bonds to finance the last phases of construction. The bonds have also been used for scrubbers at existing plants."

Coal gasification and carbon capture/sequestration are "green" tech in any event and a response to tightening EPA regs on burning coal for electricity.

But it's still the coal industry, "green tech" or not.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Well, it's neither unless the loan defaults.

But here, I'll put some more-solid examples of actual money spent (or surrendered) by governments in the name of coal production or use ... still from that same link ...

"...buying 120 MW of the 800 MW plant with $303 of its $318 million investment portion financed with tax-exempt debt."

"... pulverized coal fired power plant supported by the Early County (Georgia) Development Authority with federally backed local development bonds."

"... a proposed coal plant that purports to use so-called “waste coal” and has received hundreds of millions of dollars in tax-exempt debt authority since it was classified as a solid waste recycling facility."

"...The Taylorville Energy Center got a $417 million government tax credit in July 2010."

Coal gets subsidies. As does every major industry (and just about every business venture) in the country.

EDIT : one more ... "A new program under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, Build American Bonds (BABs), expands the U.S. Treasury’s use of financing tools to subsidize coal-fired power plants. Under the program, issuers of the taxable bonds are provided a 35% direct pay interest subsidy to reduce the costs of borrowing. Power companies are eligible for these federally subsidized taxable bonds funding under BABs: American Municipal Power Ohio used the tax-exempt bond market to finance the construction of the Prairie State Energy Campus in Illinois and, after the 2009 financial crisis began, issued through the BABs program nearly $500 million dollars of federally subsidized taxable bonds to finance the last phases of construction. The bonds have also been used for scrubbers at existing plants."



But it's still the coal industry, "green tech" or not.

Working backwards:

As I said, the Taylorville energy center was never built because the Illinois Speaker, Madigan, kept blocking the permit process and kept ordering new environmental footprint analysis.
The waste recycling center was getting a tax break due to being a green technology, not coal.
Government bonds are not a subsidy.
That's called capital amortization and every company uses it for capital outlays.

As I said, sourcewatch isn't very specific in its definitions.

 

[Bobbaker]

My original question :

Ok, since you believe they are such wonderful people. Then explain to me why they want to hang onto jobs which are destroying the environment for everybody, including their own children and future grandchildren ? Especially when green energy jobs will come into their towns to give them new jobs, and unemployment benefits are there to pick up the slack in the meanwhile ?

And that ultimately, if they are men of conscience, they shouldn't be doing anything that will harm others, period ?

Your answer :

To characterize them as lazy, to demonize them the way you have...its just a scummy tactic.

Here you are distract everyone from noticing that you're not answering my question. Strongly suggests you actually have NO coherent answer. Lets look at the rest of your reply.

Green energy does not create jobs. It has been a black hole of subsidies with little to no economic returns. Nor is it particularly clean as the downsides of maintenance in the case of wind and manufacture in the case of solar are NOT green and have not been net winners for the US.

Again this point is also not relevant to my question. My question was why coal miners insist on working in a job that destroys the environment. (In the extreme) would be better for them to sit at home and shoot the breeze. Whether they work in green tech or bake cookies or wash toilets or something else or just take an unemployment check, is besides the point. I'm sure you will pretend not to understand that.
People without integrity will lie like that.

It is impossible for industry to do no harm whatsoever. Men of conscience will want to create as little harm as possible but so should the people wanting to replace industries with greener solutions. Your entire attitude reeks of **** these guys we are doing it my way and I don't care. Now you seemingly want to backpedal but still blame them after you mischaracterized them as lazy. You should be ashamed of your tactics, but I bet you aren't.

Again, you have not made a case for the coal miners being men of conscience who give a **** about the rest of the world. That was the thrust of my earlier question. Whatever I say and however I say it, you have not absolved them of their sins. So, in effect, you've proven that they don't give a **** about the rest of the world, as long as they keep their job that destroys the world for all of us.

Basically they are ****ers. They are physically hardworking, but they are intellectually lazy (thought it was obvious but i should've clarified). Thinking is harder work than swinging an ax - henry ford said so. And they basically don't give a **** about what happens to YOUR environment as long as THEY are fed. Selfish to the core.

 

[Critter7r]

Working backwards:

As I said, the Taylorville energy center was never built because the Illinois Speaker, Madigan, kept blocking the permit process and kept ordering new environmental footprint analysis.
The waste recycling center was getting a tax break due to being a green technology, not coal.
Government bonds are not a subsidy.
That's called capital amortization and every company uses it for capital outlays.

As I said, sourcewatch isn't very specific in its definitions.

As I said, don't pretend that coal isn't subsidized ...

Coal: A Long History of Subsidies | Taxpayers for Common Sense
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies
https://thinkprogress.org/top-three...irty-coal-development-a11e3f39d48b#.7ez0c1vv6
https://www.desmogblog.com/2016/11/24/taking-more-comprehensive-look-coal-subsidies
Oil, Gas, and Coal | Federal Energy Spending Tracker

... and on and on and on and on. Please don't try to say that the coal industry doesn't receive subsidies. And an attempt to subsidize the clean burning of coal isn't any less of a subsidy for coal.

 

[OpportunityCost]

As I said, don't pretend that coal isn't subsidized ...

Coal: A Long History of Subsidies | Taxpayers for Common Sense
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies
https://thinkprogress.org/top-three...irty-coal-development-a11e3f39d48b#.7ez0c1vv6
https://www.desmogblog.com/2016/11/24/taking-more-comprehensive-look-coal-subsidies
Oil, Gas, and Coal | Federal Energy Spending Tracker

... and on and on and on and on. Please don't try to say that the coal industry doesn't receive subsidies. And an attempt to subsidize the clean burning of coal isn't any less of a subsidy for coal.

Link 1. Tax credits aren't subsidies. They are tax relief. Not direct payment from the government. BTW Peabody filed bankruptcy, that article is dated.
Link 2. Again confusing subsidies with tax breaks and capital amortization.
Link 3. Mining rights on public lands are deductible because the land belongs to everyone. Railroad subsidies are not coal subsidies. Tax breaks yet again.
Link 4.

In 2013, electricity production and federal utilities that rely on coal received $1.08 billion in direct cash outlays through federal programs, tax benefits, research and development funding, loans and guarantees, the EIA found.

Once again, goal posts on wheels. Pretending like loan guarantees and tax breaks are direct outlays is dishonest.
Link 5. Credit for investment in green energies is something every other company gets a subsidy for, exclusion of miner benefits is due to court settlements, amortization...again, capital gains royalty treatment may have something to do with outlays back to the government, I am not sure.

So, again subsidy doesn't mean what you think it does.

 

[OpportunityCost]

My original question :



Your answer :



Here you are distract everyone from noticing that you're not answering my question. Strongly suggests you actually have NO coherent answer. Lets look at the rest of your reply.




Again this point is also not relevant to my question. My question was why coal miners insist on working in a job that destroys the environment. (In the extreme) would be better for them to sit at home and shoot the breeze. Whether they work in green tech or bake cookies or wash toilets or something else or just take an unemployment check, is besides the point. I'm sure you will pretend not to understand that.
People without integrity will lie like that.




Again, you have not made a case for the coal miners being men of conscience who give a **** about the rest of the world. That was the thrust of my earlier question. Whatever I say and however I say it, you have not absolved them of their sins. So, in effect, you've proven that they don't give a **** about the rest of the world, as long as they keep their job that destroys the world for all of us.

Basically they are ****ers. They are physically hardworking, but they are intellectually lazy (thought it was obvious but i should've clarified). Thinking is harder work than swinging an ax - henry ford said so. And they basically don't give a **** about what happens to YOUR environment as long as THEY are fed. Selfish to the core.

 

[Bobbaker]

View attachment 67211629

Here is OpportunityCost once again FAILING to prove that coal miners are decent people for wanting to work in an industry that is destroying the environment for the whole world. I gave him three shots at it and he has failed.

Yes they are ****ed up. Yes, they are evil. That may not be less than human but it is CERTAINLY less than being American.

Its like the people who worked in the DDT factories. There were thousands of people employed in the production, sale, distribution etc of DDT. It was a top selling pesticide in the nation at that time. When the poisonous effects of DDT were established, the g'ment shut it down. Sure the industry grumbled abit at first - understandable - but they eventually agreed to put it aside for the good of everyone when the evidence was compelling. It was not easy to adjust but they HAD BALLS. They found other means to survive. They made it. No one fed DDT to their children because they were too poor to survive.

This is the exact same scenario.

 

[Critter7r]

Link 1. Tax credits aren't subsidies. They are tax relief. Not direct payment from the government. BTW Peabody filed bankruptcy, that article is dated.
Link 2. Again confusing subsidies with tax breaks and capital amortization.
Link 3. Mining rights on public lands are deductible because the land belongs to everyone. Railroad subsidies are not coal subsidies. Tax breaks yet again.
Link 4. Once again, goal posts on wheels. Pretending like loan guarantees and tax breaks are direct outlays is dishonest.
Link 5. Credit for investment in green energies is something every other company gets a subsidy for, exclusion of miner benefits is due to court settlements, amortization...again, capital gains royalty treatment may have something to do with outlays back to the government, I am not sure.

So, again subsidy doesn't mean what you think it does.

There are a lot of definitions for "subsidy". Every second one includes something along the lines of, "a financial aid supplied by a government, as to industry, for reasons of public welfare, the balance of payments ..." interspersed with, "Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group ... ". We could literally argue all day whether or not a tax break is a subsidy. I say it is. The government is forgoing receipt of taxes they would normally be due.

"...federal utilities that rely on coal received $1.08 billion in direct cash outlays..." sounds like an actual cash payment (hence, "direct cash outlay"), not a tax break.